Herr Rottweiler Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 i hate the dont feed the dog so hes hungry at training attitudeYour right its not the equipment its how its used that matters Absolutely Yogi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 K9: cruelty is in the user, not the tool, if peope tell me how cruel a prong collar is, it paints a clear picture how they used it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leigh1976 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 I've never heard a decent word said about Vern Ryan, I actually know of incidents where he told people to turn CHOKER collars around the wrong way so that it doesn't release! Find a positive trainer, theres heaps of fantastic ones around - Planet K9 in Nth Melbourne, Perfect Spot in Coburg, good ones are every where - neither of these believe in starving your dog before classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippi Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 - neither of these believe in starving your dog before classes. Hardly think withholding 1 meal for 1 hour could possibly constitute "starving". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haven Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Planet K9 in Nth Melbourne? Did they move or is there another by the same name? Last time I checked Planet K9 was in lilydale which is outer eastern suburbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staff'n'Toller Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 (edited) Think they moved.... there's a pet dog activity club where they used to be in Lilydale I believe...but my details are sketchy and few. Mel. Edited October 17, 2005 by StaffordsRule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 - neither of these believe in starving your dog before classes. Hardly think withholding 1 meal for 1 hour could possibly constitute "starving". Some people think it's not right! plenty of people think it's cruel to own dogs! So where is the line drawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 i hate the dont feed the dog so hes hungry at training attitude It just seems a little silly to me that your dog should have to be hungry to learn. I expect my dog to pay attention to me regardless of whether he's hungry! I mean, what happens in real life when you want your dog to obey you, but you've just fed him dinner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 (edited) Withhold a meal for an hour i was told all food comes off the training field not out of thebowl lol another person told be my dog works for his dinner if he doesnt do the work then no food or for a dog that not food motivated withod the food for a day or two so hes hungry i have seeen people at trials with the dogs ddinner and if the dog doesnt perfrom well then they dont let them have it that isnt positive Somehting i have found lately is a lot of positive trianers are just finding ways to justify what they do like keepint the dog locked up and only getting it out to train it of course that dog works well its called hostage syndrome and its surprising the amount of posiive trainers that use it to get a good working dog for the trial ring All trainers have their fauslts regardless of their trianing philosophy when we all learn to accept each other thast when things will move forward My dogs are fed twice a day and yet still want the food i have even if the dogs been running ll day at the beach if i produce his special toy he wants to pley I believe planet k9 is no longer they had a split or something there is a new group starting up up there though toilet cuck i think has the details Edited October 17, 2005 by yogibear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Hi hr I treat my dogs the way i would expect to be treated with respect and kindness if i wouldnt like someone doing it too me or my kids then i wouldnt do it too my dog thast the only justification i can give thast where i draw the line In theory anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 Ok back from the morning walk with a thought on witholding food Say you had gone down on your luck and found yourself living on the streets the only meals you got were at 7pm from a mobile soup kitchen you were totally reliant on them for food now you get there everyday ten minutes early and recieve your meal your hungry by theis time of day then on day he's not there ten minutes goes by hes still hasnt come half an hour later still no food an hour has gone by the van shows up gee are you relives he asks you to do something to help sure you comply your starving havent eaten all day but how ouwl have been feeling for that hour anxious stressed Dogs are totally reliant on us for everytig they can op out and kill a bunny if they feel hungry they have to wait till we are ready to feed them its not always easy to keep a routine and sometime meals come at varying times but withold dinner to train is unfair and anyway it would only work a few times then the dog would just accept the new dinner time and your have t withold for another hour etc. I know there are plenty of flaws in this analogy but its just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted October 17, 2005 Share Posted October 17, 2005 - neither of these believe in starving your dog before classes. Hardly think withholding 1 meal for 1 hour could possibly constitute "starving". Some people think it's not right! plenty of people think it's cruel to own dogs! So where is the line drawn? You draw the line where you believe it be drawn? There does have to be a line - otherwise any trainer could justify downright abuse. Whether you believe that line to be objective or subjective is up to you. There are some things I believe are just *wrong* in training. It's my choice to draw that line and make it objective at that point. I don't believe the end always justifies the means. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 K9: As far as Vern goes, I have never seen the guy train, I only have heresay. I would never judge anyone on heresay. If someone has personal experience with him, their post might influence me. A: It just seems a little silly to me that your dog should have to be hungry to learn. I expect my dog to pay attention to me regardless of whether he's hungry! K9: If your looking for high level results, & want to make "food drive", giving the dog some of his meal during training is common. Reducing the size of the previous meal will help food drive also. A: I mean, what happens in real life when you want your dog to obey you, but you've just fed him dinner? K9: Through an intermitant reward system, this can be eliminated... YB: Withhold a meal for an hour i was told all food comes off the training field not out of thebowl K9: Many of the worlds top competition trainers who use food drive do this. There is no issue with this. YB: another person told be my dog works for his dinner if he doesnt do the work then no food K9: Thats out, the thought process of a dog doesnt work that way, they are being rediculous. YB: or for a dog that not food motivated withod the food for a day or two so hes hungry K9: These people have made a mistake, they are trying to make a non food motivated dog motivated by food. They are trying to make a dog fit into their training program, when its the other way about. That makes about as much sense as a dolphin trainer glueing a fin on a dog... But having said that, my dogs fast one day per week, for their health. **************** YB: Say you had gone down on your luck and found yourself living on the streets the only meals you got were at 7pm from a mobile soup kitchen you were totally reliant on them for foodnow you get there everyday ten minutes early and recieve your meal your hungry by theis time of day then on day he's not there ten minutes goes by hes still hasnt come half an hour later still no food an hour has gone by the van shows up gee are you relives he asks you to do something to help sure you comply your starving havent eaten all day but how ouwl have been feeling for that hour anxious stressed K9: I agree & *I* would be stressed, but Im not a dog nor is a dog a human. Its a mistake to treat a dog like a human, they arent human & it's demeaning to the dog to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciara Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just reading this thread with interest, I have to say I'm relieved to know that my fasting my dogs once a fortnight isn't harmful or cruel. They're a bit on the tubby side anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vizsla Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Planet K9 in North Melbourne is still running. Excellent establishment. Couldn't reccommend an establishment more. Have heard alot of things in relation to Vern Ryan. None have been good. If looking for a training establishment, Look around there are plenty of good ones such as Planet K9, 4Paws etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Some great answers there guys and I'm glad I got you all thinking! Tess32, of course there is a line, you're right but now, (some) poeple who are chossing to train with purely positive methods act like they have a licence to police how dogs are trained. Even a well known child psychologist who wrote several child rearing books based on positive parenting came back some years later and stated that best parenting was in utilising a combination of positves and negatives. I know this to be the case in dog training too. Not because i'm being bloody minded and suggesting that the method that I choose to use is best, because I base it on scientific fact not emotion. I'm sure that 98 % of trainers that are in the business do it because of the love of dogs. I certainly don't do it for the money as I don't know many, (if any) wealthy dog trainers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purplepulse Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 With holding food for an hour??? heaven forbid....some people!!! I think some people should have a reality check & see how a real working dog lives, it makes me shudder to think how we lived, never mind the dogs. When camping away from home, eating our mutton sandwhichs (lamb was for wusses) with sheep shit under our finger nails, sleeping in rat infested huts & the dogs got what we didn't eat. Road kill was a treat for the dogs. A good dog was worth 3 men & a bad dog........ well there wasn't any. Harsh but that was the way it was, way back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murphy'slaw Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hi, I took my dogs to Werribee Dog Obedience School, they train in Presidents Park on Saturdays, they were great and focused on a positive method of training, they will spend lots of time talking to you about their philosphy. It might be worth popping down there and having a chat to them to see if they can help you with your specific problems. Cheers Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Rottweiler Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 If looking for a training establishment, Look around there are plenty of good ones such as Planet K9, 4Paws etc. Yep 4 paws borrows some of their best trainers from ADT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyBC Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just for an update: I'm going with 4paws. I went down there 2 weeks ago for the information session, and signed up. I will be starting on Saturday. I felt the guy who gave the infor session (Stuart) to be very knowledgeable and stressed that they work around how you feel comfortable training your dog, whether it be motivational methods or the use of choker chains. He assessed Winnie, and made me realise that she hasn't got a big problem! it's actually very common for dogs to be leash agressive, and that she has probably picked up the behaviour from our Jack Russel who developed it early on in life because he got bitten by another dog by surprise. I am confident Winnie will make a fast recovery, and so is he, because she is still young, and her tendancy doesn't happen all the time, it's just off and on. I also liked where 4paws hold their classes, in a nice open fenced school. they are relatively small groups. I didnt get a chance to see the trainers in action, but we will see how Winnie goes next week. One thing i also noticed is that there are a lot of working dogs that go to the obedience classes, a lot of kelpies, Border collies and other sheep dogs. That makes me feel as if they know what they are doing, and the behaviours of those breeds. I cant wait to get into obedience with Winnie, and eventually Agility. Thanks for your opinions everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now