Punishment

[MonElite]

Yours is something else

what is is anyway?

Chickens, rabbits, seagulls, kids on bikes, whats the difference? to the dog that is? Its an object that the dog wants to chase and most likely capture.

I really cant belive that you dont see that K9 and I say that there is a need to TRAIN the dog not to chase the chickens/gulls/rabbits.

You will know how to teach recall I guess, if you need a hand though be sure to pm me

care to share with others here for the greater benefit?

Edited December 21, 2005 by myszka

[MonElite]

I did a search on DOL and it was a suggested course of action. It was mentioned to leave the chicken on until it rotted off.

Geeeezzz we have something like that here?

Where?????

[Rusky]

I really cant belive that you dont see that K9 and I say that there is a need to TRAIN the dog not to chase the chickens/gulls/rabbits.

while you train the dog what happens to the chickens?

or is your training method an instant one?

[MonElite]

while you train the dog what happens to the chickens?

or is your training method an instant one?

Depending on the stage of my training chickens are either far away or near me.

After the "instant" comment I cant wait to see your instructions for an instant method of training a dog to recall under high distractions.

It would come in handy to Muttley in an event when that chicken enclosure somehow becomes open.....

[Steve K9Pro]

R:

You will know how to teach recall I guess, if you need a hand though be sure to pm me.

K9: Its become obvious that you are avoiding answering any questions, its my belief that you cant.

You made some comment about me not reading the thread, in which I have, if you were following your own advice you would see wherfe I have asked you questions giving you the opportunity to prove your theories, but you choose to ignore that opportunity but reply with non productive responses.

Im guessing thats because your well aware that your out of your depth here.

If you continue to respond in this manner this only brands you a troll.

I will do you the courtesy of replying to what you have written.

R:

this thread is about a dog that got a chicken

K9: a brief revision of the thread will see you talking about your children, seaguls, recalls & training methods, it seems your great at going off topic until your called on your posts, then it seems all you to do is avoid questions on what you have said.

R:

K9 you introduced the washing and Myszka introduced dogs running after gulls and rabbits now.. blimey

K9: This thread is titled "punishment" I replied using an example other than the OP situation so as to avoid any thought that I was laying blame.

R:

My solution to the dog that killed the chicken is to secure the chickens.

K9: & you have been told numerous times that it is not a solution.

R:

Yours is something else

what is is anyway?

K9: now you tell me it is something else, then ask what it is anyway?

You might have a better idea of what is going on if you stopped making up stories of your achievements & answered the questions...

The advice your offered is no solution, & this is the problem with people offering this type of advice based on little or no fact, posts can be researched & you have people following advice like the OP did & going the wrong way...

C:

Aren'tyou just exchanging one word for another, or do you mean someone acting out of temper rather than attempting to eliminate a behaviour? I'm confused

K9: punishment is associated with the handler, negative consequence isnt. There is a marked difference between the two.

Its actually the aversive that reduces the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated, if that aversive is paired with the handler, the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated when the hanlder is present is reduced, remove the handler & this will not be the case.

M:

Don't know whether this is good as one dog is then being treated differently to the other. So maybe the wire would be better.

K9: the dog chasing the chickens is in need of prey drive satisfaction, the more you prevent that from occuring the more the dog will try.

There needs to be a program set for this dog that will include other types of prey drive satisfaction whilst training the dog to understand that chasing the chicekns is out.

In the interim, a solid fence preferably blocking the visual aspect of the chooks will be a neccessity...

The program should be designed to fit in with the dog, & you & should be specified by a proffessional that has assessed the dog.

That Rusky, is my solution

R:

while you train the dog what happens to the chickens?

K9: questions work two ways, why not try answering mine, but here is your answer, "Im sure you know that, but if you dont, PM me...."

[Rusky]

The advice your offered is no solution, & this is the problem with people offering this type of advice based on little or no fact, posts can be researched & you have people following advice like the OP did & going the wrong way...

C:

the chickens would be safe.

In the interim, a solid fence preferably blocking the visual aspect of the chooks will be a neccessity...

I see that you do use management

If a dog is untrained in a situation management is imperitive.

I have not posted any theories, just sensible advice to Muttley

I am incidentaly still waiting to see what you can tell me about my dog.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: what you offered was no solution

R:

the chickens would be safe.

K9: Ahh now I see, your a chicken protector not a dog trainer & they wouldnt as no permanent intervention has been made, just a stop gap.

R:

I see that you do use management

K9: no where you will see that I said that I dont, I just dont call it a solution...

R:

If a dog is untrained in a situation management is imperitive.

K9: no where did anyone suggest it wasnt, there was a fence in the first place that the dog broke through, running the same plan would be stupidity.

R:

I have not posted any theories, just sensible advice to Muttley

K9: well your one person that thinks so...

R:

I am incidentaly still waiting to see what you can tell me about my dog.

K9: hold your breath.

[Daxilly]

Sorry can't figure out how to post link, but it was in August 2004, under "Please Help, dog killing chickens" which I thought appropriate. I must admit I am confused. There will be times I am at work so she will be left unattended. Is this something which I can train out of her or should I just put up better barriers to stop her from getting to them? Or try both?

[MonElite]

Muttley - both.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Punishment is something like what the OP did: tying a dead chicken around the dog's neck, I suppose the inference is that the dog won't touch a chicken again b/c of the poor dead creature strung around its neck? I'm shrugging my shoulders at the "logic" of this solution. Adverse consequence: putting water-filled balloons on the chicken pen to stop the dog from getting on the pen itself.

The real solutions here are:

1. Remove the dog from the chickens. That's obvious! If the dog can't get to the chickens, there is no problem.

2. Train the dog to recall reliably even with distractions (such as flying/running chickens). This is more difficult than one imagines!

IMO punishment doesn't help build a good relationship between dog and human. It just makes the dog mistrust the human that instigates the punishment. Whereas adverse consequences do not connect the human to the consequence!

BTW - I could never punish a dog. It's just not OK IMO. Correction, if used, should be immediate, verbal and reinforced with other means of reward such as a clicker or a food treat...these methods work well in most cases. :p

[haven]

Punishment is something like what the OP did: tying a dead chicken around the dog's neck, I suppose the inference is that the dog won't touch a chicken again b/c of the poor dead creature strung around its neck? I'm shrugging my shoulders at the "logic" of this solution.

The idea is for the dog to see the chicken itself as aversive. It may work but it also may not. Think about how you feel when you have just eaten the biggest meal of your life and someone holds a fresh apple pie/ roast chicken/whatever under you nose. Suddenly what was previously appetetive to you is now aversive. This is a basic example, obviously there are all kinds of rights, worngs and posibilities to discuss about why it may or may not work, but I'd be writing a novel and I just don't have the time or the inclination.

Suffice it to say it is not something I would recommend for a number of reasons.

BTW - I could never punish a dog. It's just not OK IMO. Correction, if used, should be immediate, verbal and reinforced with other means of reward such as a clicker or a food treat...these methods work well in most cases. 

Are you saying that you have never said 'NO' to your dog when he/she was doing something wrong, never witheld a food treat or ignored an undesirable behaviour? All are methods of punishment.

[Lablover]

Oh I just found something that I though might be somewhat appropriate to show.. only somewhat.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=RqjRlKu...0training%20dog

You are a bad girl posting the link. I will be singing that song all night.

I had heard of Fred in the past. A couple of retriever trainers viewed his methods.

[annicarpena]

There's no use in punishing your dog unless u catch him in he act!!! Try some avoidance skills instead - make sure he cant get in there-or-make the chooks a worthless venture for him - teach him that the chooks are of no benefit to or for him!!! Each time he goes nears the chooks, praise him if there is no action from him, ignore him when he goes near them.............he'll soon get da message and realize which is the better course 4 him 2 take but only he can make that conscious choice = asda saying goes: "you can lead a dog to water but u cant make him drink"

[cactus]

Cactus, I believe the distinction they are trying to make is between punishment as perceived by the dog as coming from the handler and that which occurs without being associated with the handler.

EG K9 mentioned hiding water balloons in washing, providing a punisher when the dog trys to pull the washing off the line.  Very diferent from the dogs perspective from receiving a verbal (NO) or physical (leash correction) punisher from the handler for the same behaviour.

Thanks Haven, I get it now :p

[haven]

There's no use in punishing your dog unless u catch him in he act!!! Try some avoidance skills instead - make sure he cant get in there-or-make the chooks a worthless venture for him - teach him that the chooks are of no benefit to or for him!!! Each time he goes nears the chooks, praise him if there is no action from him, ignore him when he goes near them.............he'll soon get da message and realize which is the better course 4 him 2 take but only he can make that conscious choice = asda saying goes: "you can lead a dog to water but u cant make him drink"

Your strategy would only work if the only reinforcement the dog is getting is from you. As the dog is clearly getting reinforcement from the chickens and has actually caught and killed one, this just won't cut it at this stage IMO.

[country joe]

1 Attaching the chook to the dog is a vey old method. I have never tried it, never seen it, wouldn't try it. You at least had a go at trying to do something. Don't go beating yourself up over it. All the people who jump up and down decrying your efforts have things they regret in their dog training past (myself included). They just haven't put it on a forum. Perhaps that should be a post "Worst mistake I have ever made training a dog"

2 You shouldn't need to spend hundreds of dollars on professional help for this type of problem. If you have plenty of money or want to train dogs at the pointy end of the dog world or perhaps you have a dog with temperament issues go ahead but if you just want to save your $10 chicken a solid barrier of corrigated iron works well. Partly bury it if the dog is a digger. (In your case he has already killed a chicken so this is a good idea anyway)

3 Join a local Obedience club if there is one around. Buy a dog training book. Teach the dog basic obedience including a recall and a sit to flush. The recall and other basic obedience you will learn at the club or from the book. If you need help with the sit to flush you can purchase a Spaniel training book or I can help you via email or phone. It will all help to make your dog controllable when you are around.

You will end up with a dog that is manageable when you are there but keep him separate from the chooks when you're not. This is a combination of management and training.

Country Joe

[m-j]

Hi

Chook/stock chasing/ killing has been the bain(sp) of my life for many years now have tried quite a few things with various different dogs (mainly dogs that have come in as adults) the most successful thing I have found is to train the dog to focus on you with the chooks around, ie training (shaping) using lots of high powered rewards to build a strong reinforcement history for lack of interest in chooks then go on to variable reinforcement, if you reward the dog when he is looking at the chooks even if 50 m away you are rewarding the dog's intrest in the chooks. Obviously these only work if you are there so I used to go inside and wait for the dog to show no interest and go out and reward (this is very time consuming). This used in conjunction with booby trapping the dogs point of entry to the pen This wasn't successful for me with some dogs as they would just try somewhere else at a later date and I have a huge chook pen so hard to completely booby trap everywhere but was extremly effective with others with less drive. My most successful trap was a pile of cans with a few stones in the bottom (Ian Dunbar) built into a pyramid on a piece of cardboard which had a piece of string attached to it and the other end attached to the fence where dog went into pen dog hits fence/string cardboard tips and it rains noisy tin cans (not good when windy ).

So what I have found is that it takes a better trainer than me to stop all dogs as I was tring to beat/modify hard wiring which can be very difficult and manangement is the most effective way of completely ensuring your chook's safety, unless you can find someway to convince your dog that they should be avoided at all costs at any time. If this takes some time and a few ideas, because you have a high drive dog, I believe you are sort of putting your dog through a desensitising/ counter conditioning program to adversives.

Just some thoughts, hth

Perhaps that should be a post "Worst mistake I have ever made training a dog"

Gee I would still be typing tomorrow :p

cheers

M-J

[lab +poodles]

I thought I would lighten the tone up a bit. My only problems with animals with my lab was when I came home and found him cuddling up to next door's sheep!. He is pretty keen on chasing cats, but has always dropped when told to. I do find more than normal voice is required in these situations!

On a more serious note, I did come across the rotten chicken method in one of Koehler's books. This same book suggested strapping a dog which was tied up for 5 minutes if it chased after a car or a bike. I am sure this would have been %100 effective if the dog lived, as it would have too scared to itch it's own scratch. but I guess that might have been the trick.

Koehler also suggested ear pinching for a dog that was a bit hesitant about a corner when teaching tracking. I had an instructor who did this to my dog, and I wish she had to spend as many hours as I did undoing the damage. She never even got here dog through TQT! He did get through though, and like a lot of labs, was no great footstep tracker, but very commited and reliable. Just once in a while he would react like a headless chook (no pun intended) when he came across a corner.

[Bedazzled]

If my dogs get into something they shouldn't.....I punish MYSELF! If they are "caught in the act" of doing something they shouldn't be, a correction is issued, and this has to be instantly or not at all!

My daughter bought a friend home after school one day, when we arrived, I thought we pulled up at the tip :p Garbage everywhere! The girl looked very worried and asked what I was going to do to the dogs? I replied, nothing, it's MY fault for leaving it out in the first place. She looked rather relived, then proceded to tell us, that her mother horse whipped her dog for getting into their garbage

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

Punishment is something like what the OP did: tying a dead chicken around the dog's neck, I suppose the inference is that the dog won't touch a chicken again b/c of the poor dead creature strung around its neck? I'm shrugging my shoulders at the "logic" of this solution.

The idea is for the dog to see the chicken itself as aversive. It may work but it also may not. Think about how you feel when you have just eaten the biggest meal of your life and someone holds a fresh apple pie/ roast chicken/whatever under you nose. Suddenly what was previously appetetive to you is now aversive. This is a basic example, obviously there are all kinds of rights, worngs and posibilities to discuss about why it may or may not work, but I'd be writing a novel and I just don't have the time or the inclination.

Suffice it to say it is not something I would recommend for a number of reasons.

BTW - I could never punish a dog. It's just not OK IMO. Correction, if used, should be immediate, verbal and reinforced with other means of reward such as a clicker or a food treat...these methods work well in most cases. 

Are you saying that you have never said 'NO' to your dog when he/she was doing something wrong, never witheld a food treat or ignored an undesirable behaviour? All are methods of punishment.

Sorry but I do not agree that saying the word "No" is punishment. Hitting a dog is punishment, as is tying a chicken carcass around a dog's neck. Saying "No" to a dog is a correction, IMO. There is a difference although it *might* be considered subtle by some.