Triangle Of Temptation

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks Huski. I guess I should be making the most of work being quiet at the moment and getting him started while Meika is napping (the rule about other members of the house eating first is something I could never stick to as I graze all day!).

I just had "How To Be The Leader of the Pack" by Patricia McConnell arrive in the post not long ago, I found it very basic and all things I was doing anyway. I'd love to see this program in a little booklet, I know I could just print it out but it would be great if there was a book I could add to my "collection".

[Cuchulain]

Max (Rhodesian Ridgeback, aged 13 weeks) has been with me for 4 weeks. We've been to puppy school (who've never heard of TOT!)

K9: lol well aren't they missing out! If you give them outr contact details, we will be happy to provide them a copy they can copy & hand out, free!

Thanks very much K9. I will give them your contact details but I don't know if they'll contact you. They don't seem to be that interested to be honest. I was a bit disappointed. I thought I'd made this wonderful discovery and share it with them. Oh well, their loss.. I will also give the link to Marcia from the Kennel Club where we go for obedience classes. I'm sure she'll be interested!

Thanks for all the help advice you give on the forums, I'm browsing the older posts and picking up lots of things which will make my life easier in the future.

[Prydenjoy]

I thought I'd made this wonderful discovery and share it with them.

That pretty much sums up my life!! I'm always sharing things that I think are fascinating and oh so very important with people, they very very rarely ever listen. I guess most people are just set in their ways and not open to new things that could make their lives easier.... Ah well, like you said - their loss!

[Steve K9Pro]

What if you can't do it every day?

K9: Well it is ideal when you do, if your not consistent with any dog training procedure then it wont give you great results. The TOT does not have to be a time consuming exercise, it is only the first day that can take 15 bminues, though it usually doesnt.

You can do a quick place the bowl, sit release.

I usually get Berri to sit and wait at his bowl until he is released, sometimes I'll do some quick heel work and give him his bowl for a jackpot, but usually I'm out and back inside within about 30 seconds before my baby comes to follow me outside.

K9: yep thats fine, thats all you need.

I can probably do it in her nap some days, but as I work 4 days a week I'm not able to spare the time on those days. Will I get progress if I mix it up with what I have been doing so far?

K9: Probably, but it isnt so much a TOT wont work if.., rather the dog wont be clear headed if.

Is there a way to incorporate my 17 month old baby into it so that he has more respect for her as well?

K9: No, & that isnt the route I take, I dont have children work dogs until they are 5 ish, trying to assign respect to a 17 month old wont work, ever. What you may get is a feeling that when baby is around things change.

He's very appeasing to me in general, but I'd like him to see her as more of an authority figure - It's hard, where I'm asking for sits for food, toys whatever, she's just handing them straight to him! Of course I supervise them etc but it would be nice to know whether there is a way to get a dog to see a child that is handing over every resource for nothing as someone to be respected.

K9: I dont mix dogs and babies, I run a specific sourse here to teach people how to get their pack running well, but never let baby tough dog toys, maybe fine when your there but maybe not when your not.

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks K9

So I tie him up, leave him waiting while I prepare his food, then put his bowl out and stand next to him and he sits and looks up at me (his default behavior at the food bowl). He's as patient as he has to be - But the reason I thought this tie out exercise would be so good for him is that he usually barks and whines when he is tied out at training etc, so I thought if he learns patience on lead it would help him deal with it at training. Well, he hasn't "learned patience" because when I snap him on the lead now he just sits there and waits patiently and quietly! He's such a quick learner, after the first session and he realised it meant he was going to get fed, he just acted like he'd been doing it for ages.

Where do I go from here to generalise lead patience to other places? Dog training doesn't start back up until February, should I practice in other places in the meantime?

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks K9

So I tie him up, leave him waiting while I prepare his food, then put his bowl out

K9: yes but create drive for the food as per instruction.

and stand next to him

K9: Slightly behind on one side works best.

and he sits and looks up at me (his default behavior at the food bowl). He's as patient as he has to be -

K9: Then it can be beneficial to bring food very close, to make him lose his patience & then learn it wont help.

But the reason I thought this tie out exercise would be so good for him is that he usually barks and whines when he is tied out at training etc,

K9: yep can work wonders there & outside the coffee shop etc etc.

so I thought if he learns patience on lead it would help him deal with it at training. Well, he hasn't "learned patience" because when I snap him on the lead now he just sits there and waits patiently and quietly! He's such a quick learner, after the first session and he realised it meant he was going to get fed, he just acted like he'd been doing it for ages.

K9: So up the ante, charge him more, require a number of known exercises or teach new ones.

Where do I go from here to generalise lead patience to other places? Dog training doesn't start back up until February, should I practice in other places in the meantime?

K9: sure you can show him that it is just another triangle. The key is to make sure you have drive each time you start, or its just a basic conscious level exercise.

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks again K9. He doesn't get that worked up over food, but has a lot of drive for toys, could I try the same exercises revving him up with a tug game and then throwing the toy and getting to focus on me then??

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: yes you can but if you really want to use his prey drive, my dedicated training in drive program is much more comprehensive.

[Daydreamer]

hi K9

We have a 9wk old ridgeback puppy (had her a week) and have been feeding her in her crate so she thinks its a good place! She is hyper when its food time, trying to get the older dogs food (we put his down first) and then very focused on her bowl as she runs to the crate. Do you think she's too young to start this progam?

Also does it matter if its different people in the family doing it, ie older kids when we're at work or is that a good thing really?

Thanks

[Steve K9Pro]

hi K9

We have a 9wk old ridgeback puppy (had her a week) and have been feeding her in her crate so she thinks its a good place! She is hyper when its food time, trying to get the older dogs food (we put his down first) and then very focused on her bowl as she runs to the crate. Do you think she's too young to start this progam?

K9: no absolutely not, this can be started at any age.

Also does it matter if its different people in the family doing it, ie older kids when we're at work or is that a good thing really?

Thanks

K9: I would get the routine down so the pup understands what is needed & then you can substitute other handlers no problems. The main thing is to get the message across that the respect needs to go t the alpha first not the food bowl, swapping handlers to early can make that hard to figure out for a pup.

Good luck & let me know how you go!

[Daydreamer]

Thanks for the reply............ I did start yesterday with the program, she didn't do too bad, its hard to tell if she's looking at me or the food, her eyes are so dark

I've been holding the bowl with the food until she looks at me, should I put it down but out of reach? And then when she looks at me unclip the leash so she goes to the food?

Thanks

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks for the reply............ I did start yesterday with the program, she didn't do too bad, its hard to tell if she's looking at me or the food, her eyes are so dark

K9: Thats why you need to stand behind her to one side, she will have to break glance & look back at you.

I've been holding the bowl with the food until she looks at me, should I put it down but out of reach? And then when she looks at me unclip the leash so she goes to the food?

Thanks

K9: Yes holding the food bowl wont work, I have written the program to be as simple as possible but behind the scenes the behavioural markers are very strong, so it must be carried out in the exact format I have written or the results may be anyones guess.

So yes place the food & leave it, stand behind & see what happens.

[Daydreamer]

YES :D

Thank you........ that worked much better, I put the bowl down out of reach and stood to the side on the right, she turned more or less straight away and looked at me

She had stopped whining when i went outside with the bowl but started again once she saw me, I walked away from her, when she stopped I'd turn back round and head back for her but she would start again :D Should i have not gone to her until she's quiet? Think I already know the answer to that one

[loeka]

First of all, thanks for putting up this information for free and available and being available to answer questions.

I've been doing this for the past week with my 12 week old puppy and so far it's going pretty good : ) I just have a few questions and hopefully someone can help me out?

1. Once the dog understands what he needs to do - sit, look, wait, and be released - do you still need to create drive for them? I assume that the drive could be there even though they will sit there patiently and look at you, waiting for the cue?

2. What if the dog breaks the stay - do you resume time from the beginning? Wait for eye contact and begin timing again?

3. Sometimes my puppy just lies there and looks at me longer than when he sits - Has anyone else had this problem? I wait until he sits although sometimes he will lie for nearly 5 minutes and I can't help but say, SIT. I also wonder why he will lie and stare at me for longer than sitting and staring at me. I think it might also have to do with creating drive for him at times.

Again this is a great programme. Thanks!

[Steve K9Pro]

First of all, thanks for putting up this information for free and available and being available to answer questions.

I've been doing this for the past week with my 12 week old puppy and so far it's going pretty good : ) I just have a few questions and hopefully someone can help me out?

K9: Your welcome & I am glad its working for you.

1. Once the dog understands what he needs to do - sit, look, wait, and be released - do you still need to create drive for them? I assume that the drive could be there even though they will sit there patiently and look at you, waiting for the cue?

K9: Yes I intermittently do create drive, this is just like adding distraction & reward in the one step, so yep keep it up.

2. What if the dog breaks the stay - do you resume time from the beginning? Wait for eye contact and begin timing again?

K9: For a pup I only go back one step so the pup doesnt learn the TOT is a program about failure.

3. Sometimes my puppy just lies there and looks at me longer than when he sits - Has anyone else had this problem? I wait until he sits although sometimes he will lie for nearly 5 minutes and I can't help but say, SIT. I also wonder why he will lie and stare at me for longer than sitting and staring at me. I think it might also have to do with creating drive for him at times.

K9: You have at some stage waiting too long before releasing, so the pup thinks this is a relax & you get your food deal.

Change the feeding place & start by making drive again, make sure the pup is hungry & place the food just out of pups reach, get the pup driven before pressing on.

[Daydreamer]

I've been doing it now for about 3wks...... time flies Nala is just 12 wks old and so far we are tying her out, making her food, (she whines while we're doing this, sometimes worse than others, sometimes quiet) I put the food down out of reach, sometimes she's sitting sometimes pulling to get to it, but she now turns straight away and looks at me When I do 'ok' and release she's pulling to get to the food, do I start doing the stay now or should I already be doing it anyway When you do the stay is that a :-

Yes.... well done for looking at me

Stay ..... 10sec gradually increasing

Ok .... release

Thanks

[loeka]

K9: For a pup I only go back one step so the pup doesnt learn the TOT is a program about failure.

3. Sometimes my puppy just lies there and looks at me longer than when he sits - Has anyone else had this problem? I wait until he sits although sometimes he will lie for nearly 5 minutes and I can't help but say, SIT. I also wonder why he will lie and stare at me for longer than sitting and staring at me. I think it might also have to do with creating drive for him at times.

K9: You have at some stage waiting too long before releasing, so the pup thinks this is a relax & you get your food deal.

Change the feeding place & start by making drive again, make sure the pup is hungry & place the food just out of pups reach, get the pup driven before pressing on.

Thanks for the reply! It makes complete sense to me. I'm going back to basics. : )

[Steve K9Pro]

I've been doing it now for about 3wks...... time flies Nala is just 12 wks old and so far we are tying her out, making her food, (she whines while we're doing this, sometimes worse than others, sometimes quiet) I put the food down out of reach, sometimes she's sitting sometimes pulling to get to it, but she now turns straight away and looks at me

K9:

When I do 'ok' and release she's pulling to get to the food,

K9: no, what you need to do is mark yes when you get what you want, then move to remove the back tie but hold the collar,

release the collar & say ok at the same time. You will see the dog start to wait for the release, when you do, delay the release, this is how you teach the stay in the TOT.

[Daydreamer]

Great thanks

[Our2Valls]

Hi,

I just joined the forum this week and have finally had a chance to start reading after my introductions . This is a great thread, and I will definitely be giving it a go. My little boy is very good with eye contact and has a very strong sit and wait time for his food. But I do like the benefits I can see on other levels in using this program, so I will definitely try it.

Thanks for sharing K9