wyvernblade Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Nope the point behind the training is that the dog only see's you as the holder of it's 'trigger' no other person has the same connection, so even if someone tries to play with the dog with the toy,it's not interested. If you saw it in action you'd be amazed. It makes training, especially to competition level so much easier, and makes the dog bond to you in no other way, or training method I have ever tried (And I've tried quite a few) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Search and rescue dogs are trained in the exact same way, and we all know how they savagely maul the poor people they find.............................Moron! If we are all so repulsive, please find another forum to dump uneducated opinions on, I'm sure no one will miss you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I see where henrynchlo is coming from ... and before the flame thrower begins ... they are just voicing concern at the fact so many people have written they have injuries from their dogs because of the prey item. I have never had scratches or injuries to the extent that you guys have written and I'm a little worried too. Mouthing and scratching for a prey item is unacceptable for me and would warrent a correction. Its not killing drive its including boundries which the dogs need. Prey drive can unleash a whole new animal and you need to be prepared to bring it down a peg or two. Yes I had a child enter my yard WITHOUT ME whilst my Malinois was little and picked up one of her toys. I always beleived in teaching control as part of prey drive, not just want want want gimme gimme gimme gimme. She sat in front of the kid, pawed the air a few times but he was unharmed ... SO LUCKY as she is one to just get it when her drive is at peak I also taugh my Mal to OUT by 5 months by letting her catch the prey item and then giving her another as a reward for letting the original one go. Now I can say the command and its foolproof. I do train bitework so I am coming from a different angle, hence my dog hating the ball and wanting something soft to gnaw like tugs. But drive still requires boundries as part of the training or you will find more and more aggressive type behaviours as you are seeing now. And as for my Mastiff jumping on me ... blame my OH he thinks the GREAT to teach a 50kg 12 month old dog to hop up and give you a cuddle ... no one said men were smart .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Ok I am new to this and I have a 12 month old GSD that has always been scolded for any show of teeth, so he's not in the best position to be starting this, so we are working through the what is acceptable and what isn't. The Dobe is heaps better as I have started him from day 1 and he knows that his toy gives satisfaction. I have 2 kids, one 8 and one 13, who quite happily play with my 'savage maulers' and the dogs are as gentle as lambs with them because they know I am the ONLY one that rewards their prey drive. I have also owned Bullmastiffs and staffies and ridgebacks and have NEVER had any problems with my dogs and kids!! My last 2 dogs were shepherds and the last one I bought as a puppy about a week after my son was born! Again, it is uneducated people like HCL that are making certain breeds now banned as they have no idea how to train a dog properly and I suppose 'manipulate' the dog to do what is wanted WITHOUT using any kind of punishment which in my mind leads to aggression. My shepherd and my Dobe are inside dogs and live with my kids and I have NEVER had a problem. I also own a stallion and breed horses and have fallen off several times in my lifetime, I suppose I should just give up riding because it's far too dangerous? I also ride a motorbike and have written one off in the last 12 months, so of COURSE I should stop riding as it's far too dangerous? I'm just glad I don't have HCL's life, as I'm actually ENJOYING mine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Wyvern make a point of education ... in some training the written theory of correction as an integral part is not properly covered. If you read a post that said a person was beign scratched within an inch of their life by their dog you wouldnt think too highly! There are different methods of training though called the same, different trainers can have different results. I have seen GSDs go nuts over prey items, regardless of who is holding it. Not everyone teaches K9's way of handler specific rewarding, and this causes problems. If you are doing it the right way then AWESOME!!!!! Congrats with your doggies, sounds like you're doing well. And you GSD is gorgeous I should have come and said hello at the k9 force seminar but I didnt realise who you were until you hopped into the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 henrynchlo The point of using prey drive is to get motivated responses from the dog in the desired field of training. So in the end you are teaching them what earns them their reward of the prey item - which often requires self control. The thing is to use prey drive in this way you first have to build it up, which can be difficult if starting with an older dog as many even positive methods teach from day 1 to inhibit prey drive. The SAR dogs at the seminar were trained in this way, they worked fantastically and enthusiastically with no problems. Active response scent detection dogs are also trained in this way. Many of the people training in this way are aiming for competition (I am anyway). I have a new Kelpie pup, we are working on training in drive from day 1. He loves chasing his tug and playing tug when he catches it. He does still grab for sleeves and pant legs, but this is decreasing as he is realising this does not get him the desired result. I also work at a dog daycare. Plenty of the dogs there have good prey drive. Yes you sometimes have to watch that they don't accidentally grab the ball or toy out of your hand or your hand by mistake, but it is certainly not deliberate, they are not trying to hurt you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Yep I agree, my post was merely an attempt at humour! Apparently not a very good one The dogs aren't really that bad, but I was so excited that they are getting so carried away over the whole thing and enjoying their training sessions so much now, that I felt the need to post about it! I will post about our progress when they are all perfect and I have no hiccups with them but until then, I am still ironing out kinks, and still find the whole thing quite funny! Yes like I said in the other post, next time we meet, we should introduce ourselves with out DOL'er names! As I would have liked to have met everyone else as well!!! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 (edited) henrynchlo You take things way out of context...pull your head in and stop trying to start arguments! Must be hard being so bitter. If you dont like the way we train then go tell someone who cares - good luck finding someone. Edited June 9, 2006 by Rachelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 Yep I agree, my post was merely an attempt at humour! Apparently not a very good one I got it and enjoyed it immensely. I'm on my first week so am still experimenting. Was very impressed with Bella - it's actually really comforting to observe how she copes with excitement close up. I normally see all this from behind. She is very gentle with me and will stop immediately if I ask her to sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvernblade Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Glad there are others out there that are enjoying it, and seeing it as I'm seeing it! Not vicious mauling, but enthusiastic response to having fun and learning at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 I got it too, Wyv. Thought it was well written. H'nC ..... rather than jumping on top of people for what they do or how they do it, when you're obviously oblivious to the full understanding of it, it would be better to query it instead. You'd then find you'll receive responses which are informative and which I expect you will find educational. Actually, even attending a seminar on working in drive would probably expand your horizons? One of the points of the "drive" training is that the dog learns you (ie the handler/owner) are the only one that is the source of drive satisfaction and hence will not be interested in anyone else (adult or child) - whether or not they are handling the "prey item". A dog trained in this way is likely to then be more reliable than one that is not. Appreciate your initial concerns, but IMO your approach in this thread was unjustified. I'm sure, if you'd care to re-phrase and question, there will be many a civil and helpful response to ensue. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 [ I also work at a dog daycare. Plenty of the dogs there have good prey drive. Yes you sometimes have to watch that they don't accidentally grab the ball or toy out of your hand or your hand by mistake, but it is certainly not deliberate, they are not trying to hurt you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-j Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 H&C I have seen food trained dogs mug owners until they learn self control just as a prey driven dogs need to learn self control. I'm not absolutely certain but from the sound of the posts most of these dogs are in the drive building stage and haven't learnt that self control and also the dogs are being very active while doing this and if the handler is a bit slow (or dizzy lol) the dog will possibly hit/ bite the wrong place in their attempt to get the ball, them this is how most of my accidents have happened. I mean retrieving can increase a dogs drive should we all stop teaching our dogs to retrieve and hide all balls when the kids are home? My Dobe and my Kelpie are fine with my son, although they aren't as highly motivated to get a ball as the dog described in the post, they still will mug a training bag if they can, son has the ball they stand back waiting for him to throw it as he doesn't build drive with them. I'm sure more injuries have been sustained by kids from dogs guarding food bowls or bones, than have been flattened by a dog in prey drive, looking for a prey item. cheers M-J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbybobby Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 [I also work at a dog daycare. Plenty of the dogs there have good prey drive. Yes you sometimes have to watch that they don't accidentally grab the ball or toy out of your hand or your hand by mistake, but it is certainly not deliberate, they are not trying to hurt you! I understand where everyone is coming from, My main concern is the dog who is trained in prey drive and, from posts to this forum, is frantic to get to the ball to the extent that the dog would bruise, bite, maul anythihng in its path! Check back along this thread please to the original poster. I may be seen as a fool but look again at the original posts, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 (edited) Please people dont use arogant names, edit your posts before tomorrow, as the under 15 yo population will come on to read the forum, some angry Mum will report this to the mods ad it will get deleted for no apparent reason. henrynchlo - Im sure you have heard of teaching the dogs with food.... Do they maul the handlers hands in attempts to get the treat? What is the difference between a piece of salami v's a ball as a reward for the dog, please enlighten us. At least the balls we are using are on the string so the dogs grab the ball not the hand. I can not recall many people using pieces of cabanossi on a string as a training motivator.......... And before you make a judegment on someone professional that I bet you have not met, why dont you do some further research and show us how properly trained in drive pet dogs are a danger to anyone. Becouse last time I remember my dobermann entire male (I suppose that would really be considered a dog of a danger to the society) that loves his Kong happily shared his bed with a 1.5 yo child carrying his toy around. Oh I almost forgot - our dogs dont get trained on chokers (fyi - correct name is check chain) we do use prong collars if we need to. Children pounced upon, scratched and, in stronger terms MAULED by dogs who have been teased into prey drive are the innocent victims of ppl. such as the list bully who plants these ideas and don't follow them up in a responsible fashion.Please don't try to engage me in debate again!. I find the people on this thread repulsive! Im sorry but this is really funny ;) list bully, repulsive people engaging you in a debate Edited June 9, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 (edited) H'nC ...... you are selectively grabbing at segments of what people are referring to which is still in the incomplete training stage for the dog. That would be the same as you grabbing at segments of other styles of incomplete training and suggesting it's wrong because the dog might still not behave as it should. And of course, when that's the case, you need to control the dog around children or other people. ETA: H'nC .... using K9's methods, the dog's natural prey instinct is channelled and controlled. Safer, IMO, than a dog who might not learn that drive satisfaction shall be provided by the owner, and therefore goes out to seek that drive satisfaction in its own way (eg. chasing cat; child etc.) Edited June 9, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 My main concern is the dog who is trained in prey drive and, from posts to this forum, is frantic to get to the ball to the extent that the dog would bruise, bite, maul anythihng in its path! See this is where you lack of education in the subject comes in... The dogs are tought to control themselves not to do that, they are required to perform tasks in order to earn the ball as a reward. In the initial stages they try all tricks, such as jumping up and mouthing to get the ball but very soon they learn that this is not the way, the only way to get it is to preform what the handler asks for... My "out of control mauling" dobe - oh yes with K9 (so that you can check how K9 looks like ) Chasing the ball and not getting it doing a sit than a heal I cant see any blood anywhere once the dog completed the set of excercises the ball got released and he could carry it of a while in his mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 My "out of control mauling" dobe - Myzka Great pictures . Really shows how much the dogs enjoy their drive training. Wish I'd taken some, but was too busy learning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 See this is where your lack of education in the subject comes in... Go easy, Myszka. Give H'nC a chance to show that she wants to learn. It's not going to help if we thumb our noses. If H'nC only wants to comment without understanding, that's a different kettle of fish. But give her a chance first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted June 10, 2006 Share Posted June 10, 2006 henrynchlo wrote: Would hate to see the results if a child happened to get hold of the desired toy in the dog's presence! I was taught to have a command/word which turns my dog's prey drive 'on' and 'off'...picking up a ball alone will not trigger prey drive without the word. I find the people on this thread repulsive! I find this very offensive, if you are repulsed by us then please don’t torture yourself anymore. LEAVE. And as far as people laughing at your 'opinions' henrynchlo, i think you'll find that it is simply because there is nothing else to do when such ignorance and stupidity is voiced. henrynchlo, from previous threads you have partaken in, it seems to me that you endorse purely positive training methods...i would think you cant get a more positive way to train a dog. There are no corrections, the dog is obviously having a great time, is learning to think, and at the same time is satisfying its natural drives... henrynchlo wrote: Please don't try to engage me in debate again! Believe me, i think people have much better things to do with their time...but when you write opinions that are based on nothing more than ignorance, then expect people express their disagreement. Before slamming a training method, please at least educate yourself about it first….you might find people are more willing to listen to you if you have personal experiences to back up your words... Otherwise your opinions are not worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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