Obedience Trialling Question

[leopuppy04]

Just a few questions regarding stays in an obedience competition:

1. I am sure this gets asked a lot - if a dog next to yours was to break a stay and move directly infront of yours and your dog breaks, how would the judges deal with this???? I am talking about literally the dog having a direct interaction or standing VERY close to your own? Would you be able to repeat it or would it be an immediate NQ for you?

2. I have recently had a trial (nb: do not blame dog or handler at all) whereby my dog was very un-nerved in his stays by a barking dog next to us ("please come and save me mum I don't want to be here" probably was being communicated by said dog). In all honesty I do believe this caused my dog to break his stay as his behaviour (scratching repeatedly, yawning and then breaking into stand) was very much out of character as we usually just drop if we don't want to hold our stays..... he also rarely breaks his drops which he did again. Granted, he may have picked up on my stress, but is there anything that could be done about a disturbance caused by another dog in the stays? Particularly if said dog you were likely to encounter again at other trials?

Would love to hear everyones feedback

[poodlefan]

If your dog breaks, your dog breaks. It has failed the exercise. Whether or not it gets another go is up to the judge. I'd suggest short of total carnage, it won't.

I've had dogs in stays where there have been barking dogs, fighting dogs, and one male dog get up and shove its nose under my bitch's butt (to her credit she did not move but I was wishing the stewards were faster). I've heard of dogs urinating on other dogs too.

This is the reason why I HATE competitors who've failed CCD or Novice individual exercises doing stays when they dont' really think their dogs will make it. God I do love a judge that does one set of stays for dogs who are passing and one for the rest.

[leopuppy04]

This is the reason why I HATE competitors who've failed CCD or Novice individual exercises doing stays when they dont' really think their dogs will make it. God I do love a judge that does one set of stays for dogs who are passing and one for the rest.

Thanks poodlefan - that was along the lines of what I was thinking - unfair but then if you let one go, where does the line stop .

Ooh - I like the sound of that judge!!!! It is annoying - i'm going through CCD at the moment and having taken 2mths break, all of the 'good' dogs have passed out and we have another batch of people entering 'just to see' where there dog is at...... if they aren't ready they aren't ready.... I just can't wait to burn the lead!

[dogdude]

As a victim of this experience in one of my first trials, have done my best to proof this in my training at every chance I get. It only makes sense that this is the main thing that you should proof a trialling dog against. It has since saved my bacon on several occasions.

My dog was very briefly humped, after a few seconds he then chose to get up. I was not offered a second chance. Its is also a good idea to proof your dogs for down stays on muddy ground.

[leopuppy04]

My dog was very briefly humped, after a few seconds he then chose to get up. I was not offered a second chance. Its is also a good idea to proof your dogs for down stays on muddy ground.

This is going to sound like a silly question but how exactly do you proof your dog against dogs breaking their stays? Obviously I don't want to set someone elses dog up to not succeed??? Also - I don't know any barking dogs

[Alpha]

A stay is a stay IMO, I suggest proofing your dog, even in classs two the instructor often skips by the groups, drags toys, throws balls. I have seen a dog stay whilst being mounted by another male dog Whilst you cannot proof for all scenarios, barking dogs and dogs moving about is one you can try to. Have mixed class stays with a few unstable dogs to mix it up a bit. Face the UD/Open ring when they are doing retrievals . I disagree with two lots of stays ;one for those sitting on passes and one for others...your dog either stays or doesn't. Poodlefan, Who's on a pass should make no difference. If a compettior has no faith in their dog completeing the exercise they can with draw and some choose to solely because they are not sitting on the golden number but just because some one is sitting on a pass does not make them more "privileged" than other competitors.

[poodlefan]

A stay is a stay IMO, I suggest proofing your dog, even in classs two the instructor often skips by the groups, drags toys, throws balls. I have seen a dog stay whilst being mounted by another male dog Whilst you cannot proof for all scenarios, barking dogs and dogs moving about is one you can try to. Have mixed class stays with a few unstable dogs to mix it up a bit. Face the UD/Open ring when they are doing retrievals . I disagree with two lots of stays ;one for those sitting on passes and one for others...your dog either stays or doesn't. Poodlefan, Who's on a pass should make no difference. If a compettior has no faith in their dog completeing the exercise they can with draw and some choose to solely because they are not sitting on the golden number but just because some one is sitting on a pass does not make them more "privileged" than other competitors.

Privileged no. But I consider it to be extremely poor form to take your dog into stays when you are merely hoping it will work and when you know there's a chance it will "interfere" with other dogs. People do. If a dog merely breaks position or goes to its handler well, that can happen to anyone. However, I don't believe my dogs should be used as experimental subjects for trainers who are merely wondering if their dogs will leave mine alone. Some handlers in the lower levels are prepared to "give it a go" at the expense of those who've done the training. Some are encouraged by instructors to enter trials to see where they are at. As a person who doesn't enter trials unless my dogs can complete the exercises I don't have a lot of time for that.

I recall a dog who had left the ring twice in the old Novice encouragement and run through both UD and CDX rings lining up with me for the stays. The dog had not passed a single exercise in the individual exercises. In the ACT you are not excused from the ring when you fail but are allowed to continue on. I asked that it be spaced further away from the dogs on passes and after one of those classic "over protective little dog owner" glances from the judge, he agreed. Dog got up and bounced all over on the dog closest to him which fortunately was not mine. Considering how long it had taken me to proof my timid dog to hold her ground, at that stage I was profoundly relieved. This is the same dog of mine that later didn't move a muscle with an entire male three times her sizes shoving its nose under her in the downs stays.

If your dog is likely to interfere with other dogs in the stays then it shouldn't be there IMHO. If people aren't prepared to do the right thing, why should other competitors and their dogs pay the price.

Edited November 14, 2006 by poodlefan

[ness]

If a dog directly interferes with another dog then the dog who was interfered with is generally given a rerun. I saw it happen in novice where a dog got up and stood over and intimidated another dog causing it to break. This was during the sit stay and the handler who's dog was interfered with was given the choice of leaving the ring and coming back to do a complete lot of new stays after or doing the down stay and having a rerun of the sit stay afterwards - This was in NOVICE by the way.

[leopuppy04]

Thanks Alpha.

The problem is this - we are very good at holding our stays in VERY distracting environments. The problem is as with most trialling dogs - the silence and a sudden break in sound.... although barking dogs seems to be added to the list ..... I guess this is a problem many people face isn't it???

I have practiced stays everywhere possible - agility, flyball, obedience with dogs chasiing dumbells, dog parks with dogs running around, squeaky toys being thrown past and over head, ducks flying past, my reward toy being dragged on the ground, food being rattled & thrown etc,etc..... difficult!!! LOL

[MrsD]

Ness, it is up to the judge & many will not give a re-run - as others have said, if your dog breaks, bad luck. Some judges may be generous, but dont be disappointed if you dont get a second chance. I've seen plenty of dogs break groups because of outside influences (dogs barking, being humped or harrassed by another dog, cars screeching tyres & an accident close by, ducks landing in the middle of the ring etc etc etc) & very very few ever get a re-run.

I had a dog come over to one of my old dogs in the 3 min sit stay out of sight in Open years ago & start humping him for dear life. Poor old Zac could only take it for about 10 seconds & then he bolted for the gate & came to find me. No re-run, bad luck for me.

He was sitting on a qualifying score too of about 189 if he'd done his stays .

[dogdude]

Hi Leopuppy04

The way I proof is usually to get a dog from an earlier class (crazier the better) to approach my dog during the sit stay while on lead. I then allow the owner of crazy to allow it to get within sniffing distance, building up to light contact. Of course, I would be very carefull to choose a proofing subject for a small dog. At the end of the day, fear factor will overide any proofing if strong enough but you can go a long way in conditioning them somewhat.

[InspectorRex]

Leopuppy , as a former ANKC Obedience Judge I personally would have re-judged the stays for the dogs that were"forced " to break by the unruly dog.

If this happens again, seek out the VCA rep and explain the situation and you might find your dog will be re-judged.

If you don't ask, you don't know.

[Erny]

This very topic takes my memory back to some years ago when I had my girl (Rhodesian Ridgeback) at training. Kal was adopted by me when she was 7 yo and at the time exhibited fear aggression to other dogs. I put in a huge effort to overcome her issues and for the most part was successful, although never 100% as her issues relate back to critical period of development.

Our progress and breakthrough was confirmed when in class during a drop/stay at distance ( say, about 30 metres) a malamute broke his stay and wandered over, past and through the other dogs, coming to stop only to stand directly over my girl.

I called out to her "drop!" to re-confirm to her to hold her position (she was loading with anxiety) because I felt that if she tried to stand it would result in a challenge scuffle.

She held her drop and this gave the Mal's owner time enough to retrieve and draw away his dog. I returned to Kal and released her from her commanded position. I was so proud that she had trusted enough in me to defer to my choice even though she would otherwise prefer to opt differently. The whole class cheered her, as they too recognised from the other dog's body language the potential danger in that situation.

So there is a practical reason why dogs should learn obedience reliability under distractions - even those that are more extreme. And IMO, it is the Obedience Trials which should show up this reliability. It is unfortunate that your dog broke as a result of the error of another, but it does depict that your dog requires more proofing in this exercise ...... and for good reason, as you never know when you might actually REQUIRE it in real and practical life.

[wheres my rock]

sadly judges dotn always gve reruns i had a dog stand over mine in open downs and growl at him he got up and came to find me aftter two mnutes of intimidation judges response was the dog didnt actually touch mine so tough he was sitting on 198

I believe you really need to set up as many scenarios as oosibe including quiet all dogs behaving because most epople do heaps of distraction training but forget that the biggest distraction is when everything is quiet and one ting happens isnt hard to have a dog appear at the stays and run aaround etc in trianing.

I have heard that its a nightmare out there at the moment n ccd and novice with far two many dogs trialling that arent ready im my opinion if you are not n a pass and your dog is unstable dont do the stays its unfair to the other cometitors and i tink it should smply be a rule that would fix a lot

[wheres my rock]

i agree with poodlefan sadly too many epeople trial dogs that are unreliable and even sow aggression during the stays yet they show up at trials without fixing the problem ts courtesy to say i dont want to stuff anyone up My dogs have excellent stays when they trial but i slll dont do stays if im not on a pass unless they need numbers

[poodlefan]

Where's my rock:

I have heard that its a nightmare out there at the moment n ccd and novice

Yep. The view of some dog people is that anyone with a dog and a lead can get a CCD - and some handlers are trying to prove it. I don't think it does handlers any good if some instructors are encouraging them to "have a go" when they simply can't perform the exercises well. People are turning up and leaving very disappointed. My obedience judge friends are also telling me that they are getting some fairly narky competitors who "expect" to pass and get argumentative when they don't.

It didnt' help when a prominant NSW conformation judge wrote in the Dogs NSW column that the introduction of CCD meant "now any of us and a dog can get an obedience title".

[CaseyKay]

Here (NZ) it is at the discretion of the judge, but re-runs would usually only be with physical interference by another dog. There is a dog in my level that whines/yelps etc in out of sight stays. This can be really annoying but it does stay and maybe 1 judge in ten will dock it a mark or two.

I have seen judges allow re-runs for things I think should have remained as a broken stay, one was a chicken from the farm next door running across the ring! It is not fair to dogs who WILL stay under such distractions. But that is why judges discretion as to what is too much interference, I guess.

In the lower classes you get things like young dogs breaking and doing zoomies etc in the ring. Other young dogs can't help themselves and break too and join in. They probably wouldn't get a re-run for that. But there are dogs that break stays time and time again in the ring, that physically interfere with other dogs every time and their owners know they will do this and keep entering anyway. Their reasoning seems to be that "he needs to practice in a ring situation" (yeah, at club maybe??) My BC obedience/tracking girl is 5 and very solid in stays... so many things have happened over the years and the only break she did was a thunderstorm that became VERY heavy rain in a down stay.

But my younger girl (run by my husband) can lack confidence and is easily put off by dogs that come up and sniff her etc. People have said "just to warn you, my dog might break". He will say "I hope not because she might bite if they interfere" and they say "oh GOOD they will teach him a lesson". Argh, one of my pet peeves.

[Staranais]

But there are dogs that break stays time and time again in the ring, that physically interfere with other dogs every time and their owners know they will do this and keep entering anyway. Their reasoning seems to be that "he needs to practice in a ring situation" (yeah, at club maybe??)

But what's the point of practicing in a situation where you can't reward and/or correct your dog? That just seems counterproductive to me.

[wheres my rock]

yes it was a fear of mine that although ccd is meant to encourage people to the sport that we would have unruly dogs out there mind you ive heard novice isnt much better with those that didnt want t go back to ccd with dogs that are out of control.

We have a couple of members just starting to trial and watchign their dogs its embarrasssing to think the have been encouraged to have a go the dogs have no attention nick off at any given moemnt and f i was instructing their class they wouldnt have gotten out of beginners

[dogdayz]

I hate stays...

afraid to say last trial i went to it was my girl doing the interfering....but that was a first. I would never describe her as reliable on stays she is prone to take the judge looking at his watch in the sit, as her cue to drop, but never has she moved off her spot, but on this occassion she did, and the agonising part was you could see for a full minute before she was going to, she was just intrigued by the tiny dog in a jumper next to her and she had to investigate. What caused it was probably several factors, second trial of the day and i know she is more a one trial a day dog, in the earlier trial there was a major disturbance in the drop stay so perhaps she was unsettled by that, but most of all she has probably not encountered any really tiny dogs since she was in puppy class a few years ago. So overall my fault not proofing her enough. This weekend we skipped the trial as i simply did not feel able to trust her again, so she will now get a few months reproofing before next going in the ring. In this case the judge reran the other dog and it passed

Certainly in the past i have been on the recieving end and watched my weim stood over and growled at by another large breed in both the sit and drop stays. He held his sit, but after a while in the drop he sat up, which wasnt bad for a dog with major fear issues, i was proud of him that day, but have never put him in the ring again (10 months ago) as i am unsure of what damage that has done. Previously he had never broken a stay, in fact i once put him on a stay instead of wait for a recall, and he was not going to move however much i called him Owner of the dog that threatened him, laughingly told me its a good thing he didnt react as the last dog that did got its butt kicked...i can say neither of my dogs will be in a ring with that one again even if they were on a score to get their title, or any prize.

Not sure the idea of running passing dogs seperate would work, my girl once got first place in a trial, despite being eigth going into the stays.