poodlefan Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Ok, so get them to give her a treat and then hold another in a closed fist near her nose and touch her somewhere relatively innocuous like on her chest with the other hand. Touch and treat, touch and treat.. increasing the duration of the touching before treating. No reaction for her moving away but lots of of positive reaction to tolerance of touching. If she has a lot of drive, jackpot her with her ball. Touch and release for game, ball can be held by you or them. Then you can move in front, with treat/ball in closed fist and same again for a more formal exam. The lesson is good things come from tolerance of handling. :nahnah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Will warm him up, maybe he can even help me with something :nahnah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Ill be happy to help you Kavik. I wont do the long heeling paterns, she gets too bored with them. I want to practice stand for exam, recall and stays. Tell him Ill bring him some chocolates as a thank you. After all if he will be bribing my dog I can bribe him :nahnah: Poodlefan I am seriously considering filming it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks myszka Will tell him about the chocolates :nahnah: stand for exam we need to practice too. Also need my OH for some practice as Diesel is very attached to him when we are out and about, need to get Diesel to not be fussed by where he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I made my dog stand and basically did everything you have put in your e-mail and it made her 100 times worse. She is now male aggressive and will attack in the wrong situation. It started in the ring, I handled it totally wrong and it got a lot worse.I really would be talking to K9 Cowanbree - so sorry to hear this. It must have been so hard for you! Just thought i'll point out that my dog is not bad at all, she can just be a little shy at times . 9 times out of 10 she'll mug you . Myszka - I really hope you can work things out with Divani - she is gorgeous :nahnah: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks cowanbree - Im unable to talk to K9 but Ill be carefull as not to push her to far and not to create what you have. That is very sad and I certainly dont want that to happen. How did you force her? How did it go from bad to worse to shocking? I failed to recognize that she was going through a fear period. This dog was a happy outgoing girl until 3 weeks prior to her first season when a judge whistled at her in the ring – no hint of any problem. What I should have done was pull her from the ring and leave her home, only socialise her in totally non stressful situation where people were ignoring her. I thought it was best to get her out and about. I spent hours approaching men asking them to feed her, at the time I thought this would make her associate men with positive rewards but in actual fact all it did was cement her fear. I then moved on to taking her to show training and making her stand, not nastily but insisting she stand and rewarding her for doing it. Her fear compounded from there, nothing nasty happened to her and there was no hint of any issues prior to 9mths. All I can say is that if I had left her home the fear would not have become a habit and once the hormones settled she would have forgotten her fright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 I thought it was best to get her out and about. I spent hours approaching men asking them to feed her, at the time I thought this would make her associate men with positive rewards but in actual fact all it did was cement her fear. How would that cement her fear? If man were not threatening and providing food why did she associate them with bad experiences considering nothing happened? Can someone explain this to me pls, becouse tonight this is exactly what I have done, got few man to feed her and just be near. Than with Kaviks OH we did a bit more and at the end she let him do a full stand for exam on loose lead and didnt flinch one little bit. She has never met him before. I then moved on to taking her to show training and making her stand, not nastily but insisting she stand and rewarding her for doing it. Her fear compounded from there, nothing nasty happened to her and there was no hint of any issues prior to 9mths. All I can say is that if I had left her home the fear would not have become a habit and once the hormones settled she would have forgotten her fright How can a fear compound if nothing happends? How long before hormones settle? my girl has just finished her first season. Kavik pls thank Ben again for me, he was very helpfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ianto Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Myszka once her hormones have settled why don't you take her to Luci Ellem for show training. She should be able to help you work on this and her husband is also a judge so you could ask him to help too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 He was happy to help, and really likes Divani! (He has a soft spot for Dobes, his parents used to have them). She was good tonight :nahnah: My guys were pretty good too. Still some work to do though with Diesel's stand for exam, but we are getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I am not a trainer so I can only tell you what has happened in my case and the advice I have received after the fact. In my case Quest was utterly terrified of the men, although she was taking the food she was so frightened she was also wetting herself so although in reality nothing horrible happened it did in her mind. What I should have done was still take her with me but not place her in a situation where she is obviously stressed and not thinking. I should have waited until she was 100% comfortable being in the same room as strange men with them ignoring her, then get them to drop food by her still ignoring her, then feed her directly etc etc. Each time not placing her into a stressfull situation but taking it very slowly. I didn’t do that, I went from them feeding her directly to making her stand in the course of a fortnight as I wanted her back in the ring. Looking back I realize that if I had not rushed her for 6mths I wouldn’t have the issues I have now and believe me a “well” dog is a lot more important than missing a bit of showing. If I could go back and do it again I would run not walk to a professional trainer. Of course your dog may not be as bad as mine, Quest never had any issues prior to 9mths so this was all the result of a fear period handled wrongly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 one more question cowanbree - when you were trying to train her and got the man to feed her and than stood her for them to examine her, was she happy about being examined or did the tail go down and she was all like "I hate it?" Divani seemed to be quite happy last night about Kaviks OH examining her, she stood there all big with tail up and taking food from my hand. Yes her eyes went back to check what he was doing but she didnt move, when he was finished she raided his pockets again, jumped on him playfully and wanted to give him kisses. The reason why Im asking is that I think that perhaps you pushed her to far to quick, something that I dont do. As to a professional trainer - well the one Id like to help isnt going to help. Also last night there was a football training on the same grounds as our dog training - lots of BIG man yelling and punching each other. Divani at some stage thoguht that that fighting is great fun and wanted to join them Than the whole group of guys (about 100 of them) finished and walked towards the club house so I stood right in the middle of the flood of huge man and she had no probs with it. But they were not touching her......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Myszka - I think you are doing all of the right things. I have not experienced anything like Cowanbree so I'm interested to hear what she also has to say. But in all honesty - you are not pushing Divani too far and are allowing her to deal with the situation with minimal stress IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 I did push her to far too fast, no doubt about it at all. It does sound like mine was a lot more frightened than yours. When the men began to feed her she was terrified but after a while she got better, same story for the men examining her. Looking back however I realise that she was getting used to that particular person rather than men in general and the next time I did it again she was no better. She is fine with men we know but strange men are very much a no no Honestly I have never struck anything like it. I have owned shelties for 20 years and never had issues like this before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Myszka, Do you think???????????, there is a small chance that you are contributing to her nervous behaviour, by .......um.......... not acting the confident leader. Sometimes, and I do not mean you personally, owners can over "mummy" their dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopuppy04 Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 Myszka,Do you think???????????, there is a small chance that you are contributing to her nervous behaviour, by .......um.......... not acting the confident leader. Sometimes, and I do not mean you personally, owners can over "mummy" their dogs. Lablover- I agree - it doesn't even have to be 'overprotecting' but even the handler just being a little aprehensive and the dog picks up on it and thinks...hmm... maybe there is something I SHOULD be worried about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Dont think so Lablover, but I have to say that I recently get a bit more nervous when Im to intro her to a male. Especially a male that I dont know. I had no probs with Kaviks OH. But Ill take on board your suggestion. Thank you for suggesting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lablover Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Dont think so Lablover, but I have to say that I recently get a bit more nervous when Im to intro her to a male. Especially a male that I dont know. I had no probs with Kaviks OH.But Ill take on board your suggestion. Thank you for suggesting it. Think deeply while having time out, in the garden, with a nice drink. Learned helplessness may be worth consideration. That is, if, she has good nerves. Concentrate - focus, on what she deems worthy. Possibly, she is not a good show prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 1, 2007 Author Share Posted February 1, 2007 Maybe she isnt......... She is a bit "hysterical" at times, that is when happy or unhappy. Kinda nutcase at times. Oh well if that means Ill be showing her under female judges only - so be it. Adieu Royal show and Dobe specialty this year, we have male judges. What she likes? - to chase a ball, to chase birds, look me in the eyes, play with Rex or more annoy him, carry things in her mouth - all the time, retrieve, do 10-15 minutes of obiedience with me as soon as in the park and off lead, bark at anyone that dares to walk on my street, catch flies and bugs, follow me everywhere I go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 hey i know nothing about showing, but have a question, it might sound naive so please bear with me... I thought showing a dog was done with the hope of breeding from them in the future, amoung other reasons? If that is the case, why would you be bothering continuing to show a dog who does not seem to have very solid nerves? Sorry my question might be way off the mark, as i said i know nothing about showing or about your dogs nerves. But cant this trait be inherited by her pups if she has them? Or is it only appearance that matters to be good breeding stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 (edited) 1. not only appreance matters 2. I never said I will breed her 3. if I will it will be a very long and very thought out process nad the sire will have to meet countless criteria. 4. I dont think her nerves are THAT weak, she goes into drive pretty much everywhere in pretty much every circumstance 5. Dobermanns meant to be aloof with strangers, yes its a requirement in the ring that they are to be examined etc however a dog of a labrador nature will do better in the ring rather than that one of a aloof doberman trait 6. She comes from good breeding proven stock both parents are champions, dam is BIS winner I know all parents and grandparents, several of the siblings, aunties and uncles. why would you be bothering continuing to show a dog 7. Some people show for the pleasure of showing, gettng social with other people and having good time while watching beautiful animals move around. Some like a challenge - I guess Im one of them. i know nothing about showing or about your dogs nerves. You have seen her twice, did she strike you as a dog with weak nerves on both occasions? But cant this trait be inherited by her pups if she has them? Sure can, from a perspective of a pet buyer its somewhat desired. She is an excellent guard dog and the fact that she wont let people wipe their hands on her is exactly what a purchser of a dobe might want. Dobermanns are known for their "stand-offishenss", for their mistrust of strangers, they are know to be one man's dog. They originated as a dog to bring the man down and it wasnt by licking him. Edited February 4, 2007 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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