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Breeding With Bitches Who Have Had A C Section and their daughters....

#1 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

What do you do with a bitch who has had ONE C section -

Would you spay her?

Would you breed her again?

If you bred the bitch again after one c section did she require another or not?

Would you breed with a daughter from a bitch who had a c section.

#2 User is offline   espinay2 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?

#3 User is offline   Sandra777 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.
Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway :( )
Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

#4 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:04 AM

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


Yeah, I suppose it's a large grey area.

Piper had uterine inertia the first time and I was told that while she had a good chance of it happening again - she might go on to deliver naturally next time. I bred her the 2nd time and the same thing happened again but she was 6 days early. She was never bred again and is now spayed.

I would like to breed the bitch I kept from the prem litter - I suppose it's a risk that she too may require a c section, if so that will be then end of the dream for me.

Just wanting feed back on what others have done and if the inability to deliver naturally was passed on to the next generation.

I know several who have had natural deliveries after a c section but haven't heard enough about daughters born from bitches who had uterine inertia.

#5 User is offline   Steve 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 11:38 AM

Its my experience it usually does run in lines but not all C sections are equal and it does depend on what caused it .

#6 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:22 PM

View PostSteve, on 05 February 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Its my experience it usually does run in lines but not all C sections are equal and it does depend on what caused it .


Steve - from what I was able to find out the lines that my Rottweiler bitch came from were natural whelping.

Pink is almost 3 1/2yo so I am allowing myself another 12 months to have the litter or spay her. She is a very hormonal bitch, phantoms like you would never believe, swelling, sooky and clingy for attention, digs her way to China around her "due" date and has "labored" harder than her mother ever did and cares for her imaginary puppies providing milk for several weeks too.

As she is so hormonal I keep an eye out for any signs of pyo, I have been told my many including vets that she needs to be bred soon or spay her. She is due to come in season again next month but she won't be bred then - if we breed her I am aiming for the end of the year or this time next year at the latest. She is a well put together bitch with a fantastic nature.

#7 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:24 PM

View PostSandra777, on 05 February 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.
Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway :( )
Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me :(

This post has been edited by Andisa: 05 February 2012 - 12:25 PM


#8 User is offline   Sandra777 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

View PostAndisa, on 05 February 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostSandra777, on 05 February 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.
Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway :( )
Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me :(



And so it should, honestly.

I have had another bitch I bought as a pup but didn't get until she was five (it's complicated :laugh: ), she had two litters before I got her, single pup, caesar. Second litter of 5 or 6, delivered fine. Two bitches out of this litter had multiple litters (at least 2 for one and 3 for the other) no caesars AFAIK

I bred her when she was almost 6, five pups fine.
After a lot of debate bred her again when she was nearly 7, she conceived 11 pups (breed average 4-5), 3 weren't viable, one got stuck, caesar.
A bitch out of the first litter I had from her had 3 litters, no problems.
A bitch from the 2nd of those three litters had a caesar on her first litter, refused to push (not inertia)
2nd litter when she was nearly 5, 4 pups born fine.

Daughter from that 2nd litter one litter at 3, caesar. 1st pup was coming with one front leg back flat against his body, took a lot for the vet to get him unwedged and pull him out backwards through the caesar incision.

Daughter from that one litter, one litter at 2, caesar. This litter was said to be inertia, I wasn't there (didn't breed the litter) so don't know

Daughter from that one litter, one litter so far not quite 2, no problems.

This particular family I have no issues with and would continue with.

#9 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:46 PM

View PostSandra777, on 05 February 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

View PostAndisa, on 05 February 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

View PostSandra777, on 05 February 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


x2

I bought a bitch who was born by caesarian, one litter she had a caesar.
Kept a daughter from this litter, 2 caesars (one was elective because she had conceived one pup to frozen semen and we wanted to take no chances with that pup, it died at 3 days anyway :( )
Kept a daughter from her, 1st litter, caesar. Don't have that family any more.

This is what worries me :(



And so it should, honestly.

I have had another bitch I bought as a pup but didn't get until she was five (it's complicated :laugh: ), she had two litters before I got her, single pup, caesar. Second litter of 5 or 6, delivered fine. Two bitches out of this litter had multiple litters (at least 2 for one and 3 for the other) no caesars AFAIK

I bred her when she was almost 6, five pups fine.
After a lot of debate bred her again when she was nearly 7, she conceived 11 pups (breed average 4-5), 3 weren't viable, one got stuck, caesar.
A bitch out of the first litter I had from her had 3 litters, no problems.
A bitch from the 2nd of those three litters had a caesar on her first litter, refused to push (not inertia)
2nd litter when she was nearly 5, 4 pups born fine.

Daughter from that 2nd litter one litter at 3, caesar. 1st pup was coming with one front leg back flat against his body, took a lot for the vet to get him unwedged and pull him out backwards through the caesar incision.

Daughter from that one litter, one litter at 2, caesar. This litter was said to be inertia, I wasn't there (didn't breed the litter) so don't know

Daughter from that one litter, one litter so far not quite 2, no problems.

This particular family I have no issues with and would continue with.

Thanks Sandra - that was very interesting. A 5 year wait for your pup - I bet that was interesting too :laugh: .

If I never breed Pink I will never know the outcome - but not in a hurry to find out just yet :D

#10 User is offline   hilaryo 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 12:52 PM

My bitch has had 3 sections but none of them have been her fault! The last was elective due to her age. She comes from a line of free whelping bitches.

Before mating for the last litter she was declared fit and well by the vet which included bloods as she was 7.5 years.

Only one of her daughter's has whelped a litter as yet. She was carrying two puppies - first puppy was huge and breech and got stuck and died unfortunately. Second was a repeat of the first but they managed to get her out and revive her.

Four of her daughters will possibly be whelping within the next 12-18 months so will be interesting. Although the genetics contributed from the sire would count equally surely!

This post has been edited by hilaryo: 05 February 2012 - 01:04 PM


#11 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:15 PM

View Posthilaryo, on 05 February 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

My bitch has had 3 sections but none of them have been her fault! The last was elective due to her age. She comes from a line of free whelping bitches.

Before mating for the last litter she was declared fit and well by the vet which included bloods as she was 7.5 years.

Only one of her daughter's has whelped a litter as yet. She was carrying two puppies - first puppy was huge and breech and got stuck and died unfortunately. Second was a repeat of the first but they managed to get her out and revive her.

Four of her daughters will possibly be whelping within the next 12-18 months so will be interesting. Although the genetics contributed from the sire would count equally surely!

Well IF that's the case things are looking better already :D

This post has been edited by Andisa: 05 February 2012 - 01:41 PM


#12 User is offline   dancinbcs 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:29 PM

As the others have said it depends on the reason. A mispresented puppy that gets stuck is not the bitches fault, just bad luck. No puppy can be born coming sideways. In breeds that normally have at least 4 in a litter a singleton nearly always requires a caesar because there are not enough puppies to trigger the hormones to send them into labour. A singleton can be caused by many things usually not the fault of the bitch.

Inertia is another matter though and can be hereditary. With an outstanding bitch I would try twice but no more. Inertia can also be caused by leaving a bitch too long between litters. Nature designed them to have a litter a year and if you leave 3 or 4 years between litters, as we often do, They often run out of steam part way through the whelping. My first bitch spat out 6 puppies in 40 minutes with her first litter. The second litter 4 years later she had 2-3 hours between puppies, got three out, the 4th one was dead and got stuck. We got two more live ones out by caesar. Her daughters whelped fine.

#13 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 01:52 PM

View Postdancinbcs, on 05 February 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

As the others have said it depends on the reason. A mispresented puppy that gets stuck is not the bitches fault, just bad luck. No puppy can be born coming sideways. In breeds that normally have at least 4 in a litter a singleton nearly always requires a caesar because there are not enough puppies to trigger the hormones to send them into labour. A singleton can be caused by many things usually not the fault of the bitch.

Inertia is another matter though and can be hereditary. With an outstanding bitch I would try twice but no more. Inertia can also be caused by leaving a bitch too long between litters. Nature designed them to have a litter a year and if you leave 3 or 4 years between litters, as we often do, They often run out of steam part way through the whelping. My first bitch spat out 6 puppies in 40 minutes with her first litter. The second litter 4 years later she had 2-3 hours between puppies, got three out, the 4th one was dead and got stuck. We got two more live ones out by caesar. Her daughters whelped fine.


Piper was super fit with her first litter at 2 1/2yo, second was 12 months later, fitness wasn't as good as the previous year - but was still good. First litter was 9, 8 live and second was 6 days early - 8 pups 5 live - 3 survived - vet believes she went early due to the dead pups.

Repo vet believes I was just unlucky, said a young, healthy and strong bitch like her should have delivered naturally.

The vets I have spoken to have all said pretty much the same thing, they see no reason why Pink can't deliver naturally and just do what needs to be done. Either way what ever I decide no doubt I will share the journey with you all :laugh:

This post has been edited by Andisa: 05 February 2012 - 01:54 PM


#14 User is offline   cowanbree 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 02:41 PM

What do you do with a bitch who has had ONE C section -

Very difficult as in my line I have had a lot of c-sections for primary inertia . Have really struggled with it but given they have good hips, elbows, eyes and temperments and I have had major issues with these in the past I am reluctant to lose this line. I will do 2 c-sections and then they are spayed


If you bred the bitch again after one c section did she require another or not?

Yes although given she had previously had a c-section I didn't leave it as long as I would have if I had been expecting a natural birth and often wonder if she could have delivered naturally

Would you breed with a daughter from a bitch who had a c section.

I have but primary inertia does seems to be herditary so they have required c-sections. My answers woudl be different if it wasn't primary inertia

#15 User is offline   Steve 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:20 PM

View PostAndisa, on 05 February 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

View Postespinay2, on 05 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

Would depend on the reason she had to have a c-section?


Yeah, I suppose it's a large grey area.

Piper had uterine inertia the first time and I was told that while she had a good chance of it happening again - she might go on to deliver naturally next time. I bred her the 2nd time and the same thing happened again but she was 6 days early. She was never bred again and is now spayed.

I would like to breed the bitch I kept from the prem litter - I suppose it's a risk that she too may require a c section, if so that will be then end of the dream for me.

Just wanting feed back on what others have done and if the inability to deliver naturally was passed on to the next generation.

I know several who have had natural deliveries after a c section but haven't heard enough about daughters born from bitches who had uterine inertia.



Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?
When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.
So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.



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