Akayla

Because Kateshep I wont be swayed by either bias or extreme. I will question any GSD breeder regradless of type. Turning a blind eye is the reason these problems exist. I disagree that WL wont benifiet but thats for the individual breeder to decide. What i said is that "I" wouldnt buy from an extremist breeder (what ever style that is) but from someone that just has GSDs. Ones that have all the qualities they are meant to have. Actually the slope is in the standard. I wont get into it cause Im having trouble articulating today. Anyway. You will do what you think is right. Im just urging people to stop breeding for their gain only and think of the breed. Yes though there are WL that have good conformation and SL that have great drive ect. Why should the be closseted away - isnt that what we have all been wanting? If you want a dog that doesnt look or behave like a GSD though I suggest you either a) find another breed or b) create your own breed. GSDs are GSDs. Thats my stand on it. But at the end of the day I cant stop you or anyone else doing what you want. PS - to the WL breeders (and SL) that do have quality examples of the breed and are breeding just GSDs my hat goes off to you!

There are tests. Its called breed survey. Might not be your ideal but frankly Im glad we at least have something. Imagine if we didnt! There would be some real issues here then. You keep calling the dogs roach backs and that is an incorrect term. There are some roach backs but the majority of dogs you are using it to refer to are not. You may have looked at a few photos. Then you will be able to tell me some of the structure issues that were a real problem back then? I doubt you have done much more than look at a few examples of GSDs at a time when the shape was varied. Its like i could say in 20 yrs time come back to this date and find photos of only flat backed GSDs and declare there were no GSDs like SL. There was also no GSDs that looked like the over exaggerated WL either. Now that i have never seen a picture of. There was a curve in the back - Ive seen it. Maybe not as obvious as today you can argue that but to say it didnt exist is wrong. Its not so much about the curve anyway its about the seperate parts that make up that look. If you want to get technical. Again I suggest you have a read of that book. Its very interesting.

Im on my phone at the moment but I promise to try get pictures to help. Yes I would say some WL are as bad as SL in the change if structure. GSDs do have long backs and they are meant to have some curve and they are meant to have other points too. Ai said if you check out some of my references you can se what I mean. I'm sure that both SL and WL "could" do the changes without mixing the blood but you a) lose blood lines that could be very valuable and increase the frequency of others. B) It would not help with the division of breeders. There are already to many people that think what they want in the bed is what is best with no regard to anyone else. Humans can be very single minded when we want to be and although we think we know brr stick to our biases opinions. We need each other, we need working dog enthusiasts and those that love show to keep each other even. Yes I like the set up Germany has and if not Schutzhund then something else that helps determine working ability. I do appreciate the effort though some are making with the tests already in place. It would be good though to se it made more difficult for those that cheat. i think there are breeders that don't understand the working side of the GSD but I think you either start to learn or give up pretty quick in most cases. After a few disasters you learn quick so I respect those that learnt though different avenues and time. I wouldn't day I'm an expert either. My early learning came from watching others and trying to do the same. I'm not a dog sport person really just hung around a lot of military dog people which started me down a road of exploration. So i understand how people like that can feel about SL but as I've said over and over they are just ONE breed and if you look at the Germans with their beautiful dogs that are so accomplished in all areas you start to see where we should be. Division doesn't help. You can't deny the show side anymore than you can deny the work half. Once you see some good dogs up close you can really appreciate how beautiful the breed is when bred right. I've seen this with good show lines and I've heard of a working line. But first we need to get rid of extreme types in the breed. ETA: sorry of anyof this doesnt make sense or is weird. I should wait till after the medication wheres off

Because A) they are one breed and these extremist divisions do nothing in the end to better the breed. B) I have never seen a WL that Im completely happy with either. C) There are not "plenty" of good conformation WL. IF you start looking for WL from scratch it can be quite difficult to find such a dog and the ones that I have seen that are as good could be SL - only the breeders choice has meant otherwise. Look if you are genuinely interested I say keep an open mind and go out and look at ALL GSDs. What would it offer? An end to people using type as an excuse. An end to people being confused about what a GSD actually is and a better dog all round. Saying but i dont feel like it when it comes to your breed to me says you shouldnt be breeding. This is the breed. End of story. You dont like it - dont own it. Simple. WL GSD lovers often will come into a subject and talk about how bad SL temps are. What then is the solution? Either you agree with it or you dont. SL people dont like WL conformation, they dont like it then they should work towards something better. I dont like the health issues in WL and the over exagerated body type. So I work towards a good GSD that does what it is meant to do - not SL or WL. That kind of bias should have no place in breeding. Either its good for the dog or it isnt. YOu might not have seen any working drive in SL but I have. The bitch I have right now has naturally stood up and defended me and she has already saved one life. Thats not agility ect thats actual drive. I know from experience what a good dog is like in those situations and she has hard nerve thats for bloody sure! Nothing bothers this bitch. She has a very high prey drive ect. Its alot to deal with ;) But i love her and I wouldnt have her any other way or to me she wouldnt be a GSD. A GSD should be like that. A GSD should be of good health. A GSD SHOULD look a certain way as there is a reason behind that. If you look at some of the all time great breeders (not just whats in Australia) you will see they usually have dogs that are show worthy and fantastic workers. The GSD isnt a Mal or anything else so trying to push the breed to be like others just so they can win ribbons is rediculous! If this was reversed and you were hearing a SL person saying they were better because they win ribbons in shows would you not think that was stupid? So when a WL person says oh but they won this or that it means only that they have achieved one part of what a GSD should do. Where is the rest? The two areas I would direct you to look into is read "the genetic history of the German Shepherd Dog" a great read! Really puts things into perspective of how the breed has evolved to where it is. And to look at the dogs in Germany. The show lines there by the way have to compete in schutzhund to be able to then go onto to show. Thats how it should be. They should also make excellent family pets and be able to sit still for 5 bloody minutes They should adapt to any line of work. AHhhh Im trying to think of that guys name... who is the last nomadic sheep herder who breeds dogs that go on to show by the way ...very interesting seeing them do what they used to be used for alot. Really helps understand the way they are set up. Again I dont believe in EITHER extreme. I think both need work and I think the "oh no dont mix them together" is BS! They are one dog - come from the same dogs and should be going in the same direction. If someone out there has the perfect dogs sure they dont need to add anything to their lines but no reason they cant help add to others. We should all be working towards the one dog. sorry this has been a rushed answer Im off to the dentist Its different for people who are just buying for a pet but breeders should be less selfish and more about what is good for the dogs and the breed. It might take a bit longer to get a dog that is both SL and WL able but its worth it. You want to buy from a breeder that only wants WL well thats your choice but no way will i buy from a baised breeder who isnt working towards a good dog end of story. There are issues in both lines and they need to be addressed honestly and the types need to be gotten rid of. People could still buy from certain lines that are better at this or that but the generally type should be the same. PS - Yessman there are probably hundreds of GSDs with working titles doesnt mean they are perfect now does it?

Ummm WL have changed dramatically from what people refer to as "old style" GSDs. WL have definatley changed big time Also there was no one "style" that was perfect. If you actually trace the different lines right back you will see that just like today back then there were fads. GSDs have been all over the place. Like when that very popular stud was used by everyone - he had terribly short legs and for a good while most GSDs had too short a legs. WL AND show line have dogs that are bad in structure. All you have to do is look to see that. Plenty of heavy build, dipped backed ect GSDs in WL. Plenty that suffer the same issues + more. They all came form the same original stock - so you cant argue that SL will corrupt the WL. Of course you need sensible breeding but believe it or not there are some great SL's that are good workers (I own one) and adding some WL that have very good structure (just as rare) together could be a really good thing. You might be happy to see a great breed slowly and slowly be ripped apart with BOTH distorting the breed and not thinking about its future but Im not. Again we are speaking of ONE breed. What is the point of sticking your head in the sand about that? Whether you like it or not they are the one breed, came from the same stock and should be breed to benifiet the breed. Frankly anyone that is WL perfect and the only correct version is no better than the SL people that think WL has nothing to offer. same dog people, same dog.

Sorry as I said later both types have issues. SL certainly has some and they have just as many extremist breeders as WL. My point is however there are many WL breeders that are just as bad and since they dont really give a crap about structure generally (so long as it is capable of working for the good part of its life) it seems to come out in health. They are the "old" kinda breeders. A dog should be able to work and be strong and what ever temp needed till retirement age roughly then they dont really seem to pay any attention to the later years (which can be a very valuable source of knowledge to a breeder as many of the slight conditions that may go un-noticed at first suddenly become obvious). I cant count the number of times breeders like this have just suggested the answer is to PTS an aging animal and get a new one. Its not the point. To have a really healthy line they need to follow up and work on these issues otherwise some just get worse and worse with each generation. Their answer to that well simply cut the line out of their program. Honestly sad the number of WL breeders Ive delt with that have a real "care less" attitude. Mind you most of these are the big timers that make good money on their stock. The ones that charge a good $1500-$6000 a dog or even more once they are trained up. What Im getting at is that really both "sides" are in the wrong. Its one breed and while you may have a line that is better at something than others the entire breed needs to meet standards AND be good workers most of the time. Its like we have become to lazy and spoilt. This is what I want now so be buggered the other stuff IM just going to focus everything on what i want so i get it sooner and if the breed suffers it isnt my fault cause it wasnt what I wanted when i wanted it! Rediculous thinking! Come on people! White GSDs - Swiss Shepherds I have no issue with - they arent my breed of choice but Im sure heaps of people love them. Same as ALL the other branches from the GSD. I have no issue with creating a seperate breed but those of us that own THIS breed need to come together and do what is best for it. Unless you mean just colour as a random? Im not a GSD colourist All shades are gorgeous they always have been a part of the breed - I wouldnt want to see anyone of them dissapear. Actually i tend to favour the WL colours and also the sables and solid blacks (blues ect are also very pretty) but thats not the important part of the dog. Obviously temp, health ect must be a first priority. As i said there are plenty of breeders now working to combine both types to get back the original dog much like germany where a work temp is very important. ;)

Can you back up what you just said??? I think its a load of rubbish. Many WL breeders breed dogs with health issues...lol what a load of crap! :D Believe what you like - you want an extremist view on THE SAME BREED be my guest. Im sure if I go and email said breeders they will all put their hand up I wouldnt name them anyway as they are not being evil or anything just their priorities are in a different place. To be fair there are also SL breeders that dont give a damn either - those that breed only for looks and dont care about the BREED AS A WHOLE. Oh and since I have owned a WL from a military breeder with a VERY good wrap and still produces many many dogs for them and she has had a LOOOONG list of issues. Ive had problems here and there in show lines but non with as many issues as her. This is simply not true. Have a look around the world and tell me how many SL make a world championship IPO/ SchH team. The answer is very few. If it was just a matter of doing what you were saying then there would be many more SL on the world championship circuit but there isn't. Dogs must qualify to make the teams so work it out for yourself. There are always exceptions to this but in general the WL will out perform everytime. Ummm GERMANY? Hello! PS - the GSD is supposed to be the great all rounder (able to work and any job BUT NOT SPECIALISING in anyone thing). They do a good job but for something specific there are better breeds. Dont F%$#@ up a good breed just because you want it to do something different. Both my SL and WL dogs have had great temperaments. They are all good workers for jobs that suit them. There is something amazing about the GSD, the way they work with you. Personally I want to own a GSD not some "version" someone else decided was so much better! You want a dog that specialises in your sport go some where else this breed is what it is and extremist "versions" on either side is only going to end badly. They ARE German Shepherd Dogs!!! Not WL or SL or what not. Pick a good breeder that has considered the breed on a whole and has selected for all things and stays true to the breeds best interest. There are plenty of breeders lately popping up that are working with both types to do this. PS - some issues that are common in WL. Skin problems. hips and elbows, overly flat and even dipped backs with waaaay to much weight strain. Allergies. bad teeth. short legs and the list goes on. Yes some of these exist in the SL BUT quite a few are specific ONLY to WL because the body shape has been altered too quickly. Its the same as the extremist SL people breeding roach backs ect not any good for the breed. Its about time people stopped being selfish about this breed and do what is in the best interest after all these "versions" are still the same dog. WL and SL came from the same stock after all.

Hmmm I seem to have gotten the most intelligent and difficult dogs in the world.....and a cat too.

I think people get to hooked up on type and not enough on the breeder. First off I've owned both types and not only have I had a lot of experience myself I'm lucky tho have some one that has a huge amount of knowledge when it comes to working dogs. I have a SL and yes I think she has great drive. So does her dam and her father is an import. She passed this on to nearly all her pups (one in a working home). However there are plenty of breeders out there who have soft dogs for sure. There ARE many WL breeders who have dogs who have health issues. Not only have I delt with this first hand I have spoken to breeders who so long as the dog can do it's job for a reasonable time its got great health. Not that they don't score their dogs just that they are so focused on the temp. of the dog they lose track of other things (same goes for some SL breeders and winning conformation). Therefore they have lines with shorter life spans. Type is a pointless argument, its the breeder who takes the lines and works them to their best on all fronts. The GSD being the great all rounder. That's why I will chose the breeder who does this, as i want a GSD not some subspecies . Sure thats harder and means less choice probably more travel but i think its worth it. Also. I wouldn't pick the dog up when it drops as for some submissive types this is a great reward and they continue the behaviour. I'm sure you can get this dog to work reasonably well just find the right form of approach for that dog (ETA: to make sense since typing it all out on the phone did not :D)

I would come but only if I can arrange a babysitter Woohoo Mooper congrats!

Awesome! Shall go decide on a time then This is going to be great fun! Blaez will love all the cuddles

Awww no Carebear! Yup Poodlefan thats why and evening one is best Of course i know some will be too tired but those that want to settle down with a drink and something nice to eat after a long hard day of showing are welcome!

Well you are both definately welcome should you be free Most likely will be in the evening as some people will be at the show during the day. Would be great if you can make it

Ok just putting up a tentative invite to DOLers for a BBQ at mine on the 2nd of Oct. Its the weekend of the big show so there are already some interstate people coming. Anyone is welcome just a light get together for a bit of fun Food will depend on numbers Time will be confirmed soon. Questions welcome ;) (oh and not really a doggy meet but assuming some doggies will be there and thats fine).

You mean the huge trailer made to contain dogs was yours!!! I am so green with envy Well we were pretty much hanging around it the whole time

Yep when we finally found you guys we were in time to see the 2 dog and 1 dog and then the kids on the sunday :D I have had to buy bubs the Littlest pet shop husky sled team she is rather obsessed We all really had a great time and people were very friendly!

NIce photos! I was there with mum and my 3 year old We didnt get there till late so we were just trying to keep up with going form one end of the road to the other and chasing bubs who was chasing "her boyfriend" :D Next time we will have to get there earlier so we can go and oogle the dogs more and say hi

Wow was an awesome morning. Everyone enjoyed themselves and it was really great to watch. Oh and I think you will soon have a new member as my 3 year old daughter is presently racing her my little ponies around the house

Right! This year I am determined to get there! Bet it would be amazing to watch.

I think both my dogs have "stubborn moments". Blaez though is a good example. I say come on come in and either stands and stares a me or barks then takes a step back. The moment I go to go inside though he runs in (usually). If I say dinner time he goes "no Im not hungry" as soon as I go to take the food away he wants it. Ive never gone outside and chased him but I know thats what he is pushing for. Ill go inside and come back after a while to see if he is ready to come in yet He gets rewarded if he comes straight inside. Still we play this game every time i ask him anything. Unless.... We are out, if we are out some where he is suddenly very obedient

well as I said it wasnt as bad as the day before or even yesterday was pretty shocking. -3 was the temperature apparently Oh and Im organising a meeting with the friends I told you about so should be in contact soon

Thanks for the evening Steve was great fun

I watched it too and got a little teary I wish they had of updated what happened the Black GSD as well - they were all lovely looking dogs and so sweet. Mind you I went and looked at a rescue page and saw a beautiful GSD boy in need of rescue.... repeat to self *dont need another dog, dont need another dog*. ;)

Steve I have two of them interested and they will pass it on to the rest. What day and time are you thinking?

Steve I could ask a couple of my animal mad (non DOL) old work mates now good friends? Its a bit short notice but we all have loads of experience and are all old RSPCA staff