BJean
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Posts posted by BJean
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What do you have so far?
can you share the sire and dam name?
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well as a breeder my website is my expression and history of the dogs, its an online family history of sorts. So while readers have 'what they like to see' (and I do too), I also dont mind what breeders actually have for their website, because I regard breeder websites as individual expression and not for the sole purpose of entertaining or meeting the requirements of others.
Ultimately if I want any information I can contact the breeder and ask.
Yes it would make it nice if the website had all this information predicted and presented for me, but breeder websites are for breeders too - and its about their dogs and them, not you :)
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Doesn't the pool of judges usually come from from the pool of breeders?
I assume this was a rhetorical question sheridan :)..... Judges must have bred at least one champion to be able to begin the process of becoming a judge in this country.
HO my DOG?
Im eligible
definitely worth traveling for! :D
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sorry I re- edited and had to top up water troughs and did not check the post again
All of your points are totally valid and correct - but would it not suggest that maybe conformation showing (because that's what it's about) is not for pet owners with neutered dogs and they should be offered social days, etc.
I don't know what the answer is but if you're including neuter classes in a confirmation show the pet owner won't be getting any enjoyment when a judge non-awards an inferior specimen - I couldn't see a pet owner looking to participate getting much enjoyment out of that.
this is what is wrong with neuter classes and the objective of encouraging future breeders and participants. Breeders assess a dog in parts, pet owners assess their dog on the whole with their heart. of course breeders do this also! but we are conditioned to seeing weaknesses and strengths. This is taught over time. That is why new participants also need to be given time to learn and see the why behind the what.
I do see where you're coming from but I think a greater participation of pet owners isn't going to be brought about by introducing neuter classes at shows. Maybe if it was like an open show parade or something where a knowledgable judge went over the dogs and told the person what was good about them and not so good and helped to educate them about their breed - that might work.
The assessment of the neuter class needs to accommodate pet owners, but like Junior Handlers classes, neuter classes need to be part of a championship show. Perhaps assessment based on conformation and showmanship, to enable the pet owner and their neuter exhibit some lassitude. Everyone enjoys receiving credit for their dog, and I think judges and breeders have the capacity to judge and regard a neuter breed class in the spirit in which it is intended - to encourage new participants.
If you have dog breeders and pet owners at shows together, you will work towards removing the perceived divide. I believe the neuter class has the potential to do this.
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I know exhibitors take their showing very seriously which is fabulous and fascinating to watch, and I understand in some breeds show results are the main platform for assessment. However, the attitude that neuter exhibits need to be judged with the same level of scrutiny as the entire exhibits, is a retardant to the objective of encouraging new participants.
Immediately 'fun' and enjoyment is removed from the whole exercise. Pet owners are not going to obsess (in general) over as much detail as breeders. It should not matter if the neutered entry or 'neuter champion' would not win in the breeding class <maybe the neuter assessment criteria can be a combination of breed standard and showmanship / team effort etc >. All breeders know that there is variance in litters, so what does it matter if a pet owner's neuter exhibit's bite is not as it should be, or if its coat is mismarked or whatever else. Happy healthy dog, engaged owner, participating at a State CC event with their dog ... with council desexing requirements where else will new exhibitors and new breeders come from?
Plus there is kudos to the breeder of a neuter-pet-champion also. Immediately a potential puppy home sees the breeder of Champions and Neuter/Pet champions as a breeder who breeds dogs that 'regular people' own. ['regular people' because legislation and State CCs responses are increasing divides between pedigree breeders and 'dog lovers'.]
I don't intend to diminish the seriousness or importance of conformation showing, but dont forget about the social side and branching out aspects also. In its current format the neuter classes will never be significant because it is still tailored towards those already engaged, and not towards the intended target - non participating pedigree dog owners. Just as the Junior Handler class fosters future handlers, the neuter class needs to do this also.
Also, breed standards and breeder technicalities are boring to pet owners :) . Breed standards only become interesting when your interest in a breed increases. Shows are a great way to generate this interest. But State CCs need to get potential participants active and engaged with pedigree dogs and showing, and this will not happen and is not happening with the current format.
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I don't have a problem with Neuter classes; however I see very few new people showing, there tends to be titled dogs being shown by experienced owner/handler/breeders.
I thought it was bought in to encourage newbies to show, I don't see that happening.
I wonder if neuter classes were open to LR then numbers might increase - along with getting the message to people outside the show world that they can participate in a dog show
I'd be happy to see more neutered dogs, just more dogs in general so I can see the finer details of different lines. I can still learn alot about the different kennels from seeing neuters.To encourage owners outside of state CCs to show their dogs as neuters, the Main Registration requirement needs to be relaxed.
Here, LR means - sold as a pet, not for breeding.
Show dogs and breeding dogs are not one and the same. And generally show dogs (Central Asian and Anatolian) require a certain temperament and show exposure that a good proportion of the dogs dont have or will not have access to.
So the only way more pets would be shown from this sector is if pet owners could take their pup to the show on LR.
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Gary Stapleton (narre warren north)
Barry Haywood for anything to do with bones and joints (cranbourne south)
Harry Corbet (Bayswater)
Stuar mason (monash)
clients: central asian and anatolian
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There is neuter in group and neuter in show at most of the shows around here - at all that offer the classes (which is the majority).
And yes, the class offered is open neuter - class 18 and 18a.
The All Breed KCC and Bulla shows in the Dogs Vic November and December gazette did not have neuter classes - but some of the country all breed shows did.
Good to learn that when they do, it is 18/18a
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I know owners who would show their desexed dog ...
maybe there could be neuter in group and neuter in show,
with the neuter class being 'open' ie 6 months and over.
I dont think the age divisions in the neuter class are necessary.
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this
having said that, most breeders have more than a bitch or two. Breed plays a big part and those more expereinced with Dally's should be able to tell you more about managing a pack of them
and this
Any time you have more than one or two dogs you get into a space where you often need to 'manage' dogs a bit differently as pack dynamics come into play a bit more readily and complexly (is that a word? Well you know what I mean lol!) this means knowing your dogs and being aware of how they interact and being proactive in how you manage that. Entire dogs do add another level as you have the influence of hormones. Truth is, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. what is important is that you are prepared to manage the relationships that develop. Being able to separate dogs is something that breeders generally need to be able to do. Puppies from adults, bitches in season or in whelp, dogs from bitches, adults that don't get on, young from old. There are lots of situations where separation becomes a good management tool. You may do fine and be able to have them all together most of the time. Right now I can do that (though do have separate runs for them when I am out - as a rule I leave no more than two adults together when unsupervised ) in the past I had bitches who couldn't be together and crates and baby gates as well as separate runs were helpful. It was stressful at times and you do have to develop a good routine and safety protocols but you can work it when it becomes a necessity. A good setup and system is paramount. Truth is, no one will tell you if your bitches will get on. You may never have a problem. But it is good you are thinking about it so you are prepared and can manage it if you do.
WRT what to import first:
import what is in your heart to import.
why? because lives change and you may never have progeny from what you import.
Also I dont think AI and cesarians are the best way to start the breeding life of a bitch. Frozen import semen is not a stud dog until it exists as puppies on the ground that you bred. Import semen is a gamble.
Breeding can get so technical of what matches here and what doesn't and then when it comes to import all and sundry have an opinion, makes it so complicated you can lose track of the why. You're not changing the world or a breed, you are doing what you think is best in one instance. I wouldn't have said this a few years ago, but dont take the breeding import thing so seriously. The breed is not on your shoulders, only your dogs and your happiness. Import and breed what you like. Good luck :)
ps: At a show yesterday, the CC line up for Dalmations caught my eye.
And I thought, don't they look magnificent! :) and then later a shihtzu was paraded for BIG (I think). Another fantastic pedigree tribute to dogs. Anyway point is, I'm sure there was lots of technical analysis and opinions behind their exhibition and creation, but it is the quiet marvels, the appreciation of a breed that keeps it going. As a breeder, you may *think* you can control this or have more of an important role than you do. but you don't. The breed is always in the hands and eyes of others.
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i start weaning with mince mixed into a mush with goats milk
oh what becks said! :)
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we've started mush at about 3 weeks.. soaked bikkies mashed up and divetalac , our breeder suggested porridge made on puppy milk..
bikkies and porridge are ceareal carbohydrates and better suited to human babies.
Milk with a mince is better for baby puppies, you can use a blender or mash it with a fork.
Puppies that only need a top up you can try using goats milk, or goats milk with a dash of nutrigel.
Good luck
baby puppies ... squishables!
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the mother was in very bad health when she arrived and the same day she gave birth was at the vet for a major uterine infection and went onto antibiotics for 2 weeks to fight it she was one sick girl but the pups still did well and gained weight meet and past all milestones.
We are on town water her not tank.
We know it wasn't an infection as temp was normal.
so the mother was wormed with Sentinal (while preg) she did have worms (on vet advise was also wormed with drontal all wormer) and had antibiotics within the pups first week of life.
I'm still not convinced it was fadding puppy.
I dont think it was fading puppies either.
Usually it affects younger puppies, and they 'fade', ie get weaker visibly over at least 12 - 24 hours.
I have and bitches on ABs with puppies and the puppies have been okay.
The worming sequence, as I understand :) :
Mother of puppies was wormed before birth (how soon before birth?)
The mother was wormed again within one week after birth,
the puppies then received more wormer again approximately one week later,
and then the puppies received more wormer two weeks later (4 weeks old).
Puppies started dying.
Did the vet rule our canine herpes virus?
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wormed at 2 weeks this was the second worming and it was troy puppy wormer. But when the Autopsy was done NO worms and nothing in the Poo either I was looking (gross as that is)
Troy puppy womer (Piperazine) only treats roundworm.
Given the mother's history you would expect some worms to be in the puppies - although not necessarily visible to the naked eye?
Did you use a microscope?
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I know in rescue we see everything, I have raised many litters of pups but NEVER until 2 days ago had a pup who looked healthy was drinking and playing just die.
29th wormed the pups it was the 4 week dose. they went off and were playing they then went over to pups mum and had a feed 2 of the 5 feel asleep attached to mum nothing new, then one got up after a drink took 2 steps and laid down like it was going to sleep it had the hicups it died not 2 minutes after laying down gave a shutter and was dead. NO infection poo normal, the vet put it down to anaphalatic reation to the worm syrup. O.k I was upset but we moved on all the other pups were fine.
30th had a vet appointment to get the remaining 4 checked over and confirm all was well, about an hour before the appointment I noticed another little girl get the hicups and start panting I check if I could bring them over now. couldn't they had an emergancy so took them to another vet and she said they this pup wasn't going to make it but they would try, She didn't they first said the pup had a worm burden (no worms found at Autopsy) the temp was normal NO infection. Her inside lining was very thin on her stomach and other organs, lots of blood inside. So my next question was did it suffer a truma like the mum squashed it or bit it (I was grasping at straws the mum in question is a very gentle girl.) the vet said no sign of any truma. Is puting it down as unknown.
she then turned around and siad there is a chance you may still loose the other 3 if they make it to 12 weeks they should be fine.
I'm looking for answers ideas In my head I know I did everything right but (it is really hard to understand a 4 week old healthy pups or 2 in this case dying for no reason). I read up on fading puppy my 2 were above normal weights for the age and breed.
The mother came in with 3 pups already we originally thought they were 3 months old only to find out they were 6 months and mum was preg. This litter of pups could be to the mothers father or brother the people that owner her in Gundigia need to be found and shot our vet confirmed if the pups hadn't gotten out when they did they would have been dead in less than a few days. The pound called us the minute they arrived and we collected that day.
Has anyone else had this happen and did they discover why?
It sounds like a toxic reaction to the wormer.
I understand the situation is very upsetting but I dont think the dog's situation ie sire/dam combination caused what you are seeing.
If anything, I would say her immune would be more likely robust to carry pregnancy and have five puppies.
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Its all about what you need from them. Traditionally Maremma would go up into the mountains and guard the sheep sometimes alone sometimes with the shephard but they were also expected to behave themselves and have manners when they came down the mountain and sleep near the house. Ive bred a couple of champs which have been excellent at the job they do. Worked in the paddock all week and come out and seem to enjoy the show scene on week ends and enjoyed human approaches and company . As soon as they get home they go back with the goats.I think if the goats had gone to the show with them that the reaction would have been different as anyone approaching would be seen as a potential threat to the goats on or off the property but with nothing to guard there's nothing to guard. still they would bark not bite.
To date the bulk of those showing them in Australia have also worked them so selection has been mainly about how they work as well as how they look and I wouldn't like to see that change and I think its changing. Personally I think its a lesser accomplishment if the dog wins a conformation championship but doesn't work too and whilst the standard is important to me in my breeding program no point for me having one thats looking the part but cant work well.
Here in their own paddock with their sheep or chickens there is no off and I don't expect an off from them and they yell at anyone approaching but when I take them off the property or away from what they guard they are different dogs and in the main docile. They are not supposed to be aggressive - yelling at you to keep away from the gate is different to jumping the fence and ripping your arms off even though they can and Id never expect that from a Maremma.
Some of the Maremma I have seen at shows do bark and carry on but that is what I expect of them.
Anatolian and Central Asian tend to bark less. Usually its a stare and a snarl and then its on.
Employed Anatolian and Central Asian guardian dogs generally guard what they are on or live in and therefore anything in that area. They also have their personal space and there is a perimeter unknowns cannot enter. This perimeter exists everywhere all the time.
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Yes, there are sharper individuals (and have seen a few dustups at European shows though this tends to be dog to dog agression in mature males) but I would suggest, based on lilli's comments that the Pyrenean may have been bred with slightly different intent and to have that off territory off switch which it seems some of the other LGD breeds may not.
woops I missed this :) Yes, when we show the Anatolian in Vic, there is one male and one female we have to keep separate and need a lot of distance between.
I do not have a central asia adult that is suitable for show ie acceptance of handling by the judge and close quarters of other dogs and curious onlookers. As a puppy/junior they were okay but not on maturity.
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Summers with the shepherds up in the mountains then winters in the lower villages and plains (with transhumance in between). So yes, they needed to be adaptable and go from isolation to the closer living of farm and village life.Note they were also used to guard castles and forts (such as Carcasonne)and were for a while the darlings of the French royal court.
Wouldn't a guard dog of a castle or fort be required to hold it's ground with physical force? ie: to step up unassisted and against the human as an adversary? I do not see this in the Pyreneans at shows :) And its probably a good thing, time and needs pass. Maybe 100 - 200 years of selective breeding has done a lot, maybe the less reactive Pyreneans were chosen because they were naturally more subordinate to people. So they could accept and be docile enough for Market Day and guarded with bark and intimidation not active confrontation. Maybe the dogs taken to Market Day in 1900 were not the 'best' guardian on the home front. ie the dog you call upon to be by your side if your life is at risk.
What was the population of Pyreneans like after WWI and WWII?
ETA: re bold part, just read your comment above - yes it makes sense and the Pyreneans at shows are behaving exactly as they should as their response is developed to have an on / off but also the Pyrenean response is not as combative :)
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Let's be clear about guardian capacity and capability, and what this means wrt the instinctive guardian dog, cf the dual pet guardian show dog.
I dont know what the Maremma and Pyrenean ultimate guardian response is (and perhaps this is the point of difference), but I do know the type of Anatolia and Central Asia dog that you can put your hand in fire (as we say) the dog will not back down, do not have an off duty switch or 'stay at home guardian demon'. These dogs do not go to shows.
If Anatolian and Central Asia do not have individuals who will not back down, AND have an off duty switch ie accept intrusions at shows, then Maremma and Pyrenean do not either. The dogs that go to shows are not in the same instinctive response category as the former. Intolerance and reactivity and the self assured nerve to assert their will over a situation are innate. Full kudos to the show maremma, pyrenean, anatolian etc but lets not pretend their full stop guardian peers, also don a show cape and have a stay at home guardian demon. It is at odds with everything this type of dog is, and the expectations required of them.
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I can't say they do much for me but then all I've come across are half feral dogs that are poorly handled and are allowed to lunge and bark at everything that goes past.
I don't think that is a fair assessment. Although Anatolian are not the same as Maremma, the ASD we take to the show lunge and growl occasionally, and it would be a mistake to attribute their behaviour to poor handling. In fact it takes a lot of handling to get them to the show all day and there is a lot going on that the casual observer may not notice, or even be accustomed to with their own breed. There is also no off time either. You have to watch the dogs the entire time.
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The tablets are not for sale to Australia, export only.
i will send you the link in a pm greytmate.
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most whingers have no appreciation or understanding of what a working dog is, or how suburb house rearing differs to working rural rearing. they make comments ohhh ahh look at the difference, yet most of them could not handle, contain, or live with a working minded dog. yes there are differences and tweaks, big woop. Own what you like and keep it at that. Pet dogs change from their working counterparts because the pet home is not equipped for anything more. it's not a slight on the pet home, but reality of 21st century. look what they have done, look what we all have done. And hold off on the whinge. Because unless you breed or rear and deal with the public pet sector and legislators maybe it's not as simple as you write it should be :) Cheers hope everyone is enjoying their day of digest :) I'd be digesting more but one of the critters ate my guylian tray of chocolates! bah lucky I still have the chrissy cookies for my cuppa! :D
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No, she is still unclaimed at the pound
I believe the ranger is trying to organize for her to go to a foster carer over Christmas but that will only be a temporary solution (though it will buy her more time and relieve her kennel stress). It is very difficult to find rescues willing to take on the bully types and even worse at this time of year
BlackJaq
I have sent you a PM about this dog
Neuter Classes
in General Dog Discussion
Posted
Breeders are going to have to peer out of their comfort zone or consider other breeders' worlds, maybe even get over themselves a little, otherwise you will be showing against yourself.
Maybe this is okay for those in an older generation but for those who would like showing to be an activity option in their retirement age, no compromise is not good and will engender no future for the sport.