huski

Oops triple post!

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If you did it with a very reputable trainer it could be ok if you also had a session with the trainer so you could learn what to do but As a very pedantic control freak owner I don't think I could ever do it. Also consider the reasons why you are doing it. I get a lot of enjoyment out of training my dogs, to me that's the point of having them in the first place. I also would find it very hard to trust someone with my dog, how would you know what methods they are using if you aren't there? For me training isn't a two week process, it is something that goes for the life of my dog. If it is purely to train your dog to do the basics, wouldn't it be better to have a one on one session with a trainer so they can show you how to do it?

Does Berri have his CCD title yet Jeanne? I remember you had your first trial not that long ago

LOL thanks for reminding me Tiggy! There is some good advice in the training talk thread as I recently asked the same thing. What you do to prepare your dog is really an individual thing. For me ideally I do nothing with Daisy at least 24 hours before hand: no food, training, games, walks etc. Some people do the opposite. Just what works best for your dog

Oh I'd love to go to the 4th of July one - unfortunately we have an obedience trial the same day maybe next time!

Totally agree with you

You need to be more creative with food! I stick to anything soft and smelly - any left over roast meat, chicken, steak (cheap cuts you can get from the butcher like gravy meat/chuck steak), luncheon roll, sausages, 4Legs dog food, etc etc - all chopped into tiny pieces so it's easy and quick for the dog to swallow. You can also try feeding his daily food allowance through training instead of just feeding it to him in the bowl.

Ah sorry I totally misread it LOL! When I first started with Daisy, we'd do 30 seconds to a minute of training but it would be really high energy and fun and then I'd always leave her wanting more.

He sounds lovely! What kind of food do you use as a reward? How heavily/frequently are you rewarding him for focusing on you?

Five minutes of focus or attention is great! I used to struggle to get a few seconds, LOL. How long is obedience class? What do you do when he loses focus? Assuming class would be around an hour long? My dog has pretty good focus and I wouldn't ask her to work for that long continuously, it's boring and setting the dog up to fail because it's highly likely they will lose focus over that amount of time. I wouldn't be aiming for obedience all the time. I would ask for short bursts of attention and focus, I would rather a few minutes of 110% than an hour of anything less than that. Build him up to high levels of distraction gradually. I started in really low levels of distraction like my backyard, then when my dog was working really well there I would slowly increase the distraction level - so we'd move to the front yard and so on and so on. Obedience club can be great, but I use it as an opportunity to train in high levels of distraction once we're at a point when my dog can work well with lots of distractions around. I trained my dog and then took her to obedience club when I knew she could work in that level of distraction. Oh and Daisy (my scent hound) will have her nose stuck to the ground often when we are out walking, I don't mind this if we are just walking because I know I can get focus when I ask for it. That took time though but I think it's good to let them have down time where they can do things like scent.

Those pics are so cute! Be careful though... obedience is addictive!

I don't agree with this as when applying a positive solution to something you shouldn't get the dog in the position where it feels the need to practise the behaviour, if you are intentionally you aren't doing it right jmho. Applying a gentle correction in which the dog does get to practise the behaviour (to some degree) in order for you to be able to apply a correction which doesn't work with will create a dog that will have a stronger extinction burst and you do have to up the ante. Just as distracting a dog that has loaded up (with the emotion/drive that creates the behaviour, without actually displaying the behaviour) with a motivator will not work with a low (motivation) drive dog or an ingrained habit. The way I see it positives and corrections are worlds apart, not a modified version of each other if that makes sense . cheers M-J But that assumes that there is a positive solution that can be applied successfully and as efficiently as a correction in all situations and I can't agree that's always the case. You need to take into account the handler's ability too; the deadline the trainer may be working with; how ingrained the habit/behaviour is etc etc. Sometimes you also can't avoid the dog practising the behaviour, what do you do then if you that's not the time to apply a 'positive solution'?

Gee Nic I have no idea what you're talking about :thumbsup:

Sorry Jeanne, I can't even recall the last time I responded to a post of yours so I'm not sure what you're getting at with the above. Then why bring up that we're on the internet and haven't met the dog Following that argument, you have no more ability to recommend a no pull harness than someone does to recommend a prong. I could never say trying gentle ways is better than using aversives because IMO what is best depends on the owner and the dog.

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"? Um because we are on the INTERNET and haven't met the dog, perhaps? Why so rude I'm not talking about a specific dog, I am talking about tools and training and dogs in general.

Let them know on the day when you pick up your numbers. I'll probably be entering both Caboolture trials so you can come join me under my gazebo, wine will be your entry fee... maybe a doughnut as well! ;) Will see you two there as am entered in the second trial. Have to work in the morning darn it.. I'm only entered in the PM trial as we are trialling at Metro the next day, you should join us for some wine Kath :D

I'm not saying a front attaching harness won't ever work, but that what tool you use depends on the dog and the behaviour and the capability of the owner. Why would a trainer recommend a tool they know isn't going to work on a particular dog? Why would you use a tool that is not suited to a dog for various reasons just because "it wouldn't hurt to try it"? An experienced trainer/behaviourist will know what tool (if any) will work best for a dog once they've assessed it. I would be disappointed if I went to a trainer who made me try 101 things before finding one that works, keeping in mind that often when a person goes to a trainer it's a last resort and they want to see results ASAP otherwise they lose hope or interest altogether. What makes you think that for all dogs, a front attaching harness is always going to be less aversive or "more gentle" than a prong or e-collar? What will work best will change from dog to dog and owner to owner. We should focus on using the best tool/method for the dog and owner, not force them to try a million things before finding something that will get results. ETA: What Cos said

Let them know on the day when you pick up your numbers. I'll probably be entering both Caboolture trials so you can come join me under my gazebo, wine will be your entry fee... maybe a doughnut as well! :D *sigh* I mean if I HAVE to bring wine ;)

And what if the 'least aversive' for the dog in question is a prong, not a front attaching harness or head collar? I am responding to your idea that punishment/corrections should never be tried unless the owner has exhausted every single "positive" option.

LOL SA Daisy is trained mostly positively too, I just don't think that positive is always the best 100% of the time for all dogs and owners.

Jeanne: What Corvus is saying (and she can correct me if I am wrong) is that the method you use depends on the dog. Not everyone has the luxury of trying 1000 different "positive" things during which time the behaviour you are trying to stop can become more and more ingrained, then requiring a stronger aversive/correction to stop it by the time you do exhaust all the "positive" avenues. Corrections or punishments do not have to be extreme, harsh or terrible - what will be aversive to one dog may not to another and how a dog will respond to something aversive depends on the individual. K9 Pro explained it quite nicely in the post above Corvus's, did you see it? If that's the reaction you get from using aversives (setting him backwards) then you aren't using them properly or appropriately. Remember too what one person will class as 'very driven' will differ - I would class a working line Malinois as 'very driven', my little beagle who I train in food drive as quite low drive in comparison. How much experience have you had training very hard, high drive working dogs, Jeanne? How easily have you trained them out of an ingrained habit with positive methods 100% of the time? I honestly don't understand why these threads always turn into a debate on positive vs negative, when it should really be about what works best for the individual dog.

You'll have to enter the afternoon trial at Caboolture - then we can both drink and it will be after 12pm so we won't get funny looks thanks for the tip re my entry form - I knew I would forget something! Can I say something to the trial secretary at the Caboolture trial or will it be too late by then?

Yep but then again they are just adorable :D look a bit a like a long haired beagle For anyone who knows them or owns one, do you find they are more laid back/less active than a beagle?

She looks like so much fun to train Nik!!