huski

So you are saying the method I use is hardly positive, wow thanks and it's nice to know! But i am not complaining since the dogs i have fostered and my two sibes i have currently do walk next to me beautifully. No, that's not what I am saying at all. You said that you only use R+, but changing direction or stopping when the dog pulls is not R+ - you are stopping the dog from doing something they find rewarding. That is not, by definition, R+. Like I said earlier - it's great that you were able to do it without the assistance of anything other than a leash and collar (both of which are tools, btw). But it's not fair to assume that everyone is capable of doing so with every dog, and that tools are always unnecessary. Are you are dog trainer, Holly? Because it's not about what you can do with a dog, but what the person you are training is capable of doing. Most good trainers can train the majority of dogs to walk on a loose leash with a flat collar, but it's not about what they can do - it's about what the handler is capable of doing.

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement. The +R component is being allowed to move forwards, go sniff things etc. "Be a Tree" or "Penalty Yards" approaches remove that reinforcer, and give it back when the dog is on a loose leash. Aidan, I agree totally that moving forward is the +R component but changing direction or stopping is not.

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement. I'd suggest that a properly used tool is a lot more positive than a dog being PTS because the owner can't handle it. It's naive at best and arrogant at worst to assume that everyone is capable of training any dog to walk on a loose leash without the use of tools. Pssst... nice to see you over on DOL, Joey ;)

It's great that you've managed to train your dog that way, but it's unfair to think that everyone is capable of doing the same without the assistance of a tool. Walk and turn is not strictly positive reinforcement anyway.

I wouldn't expect my dogs to sit there and take it if a child was too rough with them, anymore than I would expect a toddler to sit there and take it if a teenager came up and smacked them around. I socialise my dogs to be gentle and calm around kids but I don't encourage rough play.

RS do you have a release word you have trained I.e. Saying 'ok' to signify they can have the reward?

Dont listen to them huski. Get to the higher levels and it is the up dogs that are working/scoring well. They have learnt to channel the enthusiasm. Coco goes nuts between exercises but settles and focuses for the work. I now have judges saying "Isnt it wonderful to see such an enthusiastic dog?" As for Sunday those grounds are fairly heavy on the distractions as it is so Daisy did great for her first trial - and so did her handler. I've been trialling for over 20 years and I still get nervous so the fact that you were nervous at your first is nothing. Its really just the adrenaline having its way with you ;) :D Thanks Kath! Coco is brilliant to watch... you can tell she is having heaps of fun! I couldn't believe it when someone kicked a soccer ball over into the UD (or was it Open) ring lucky it didn't go in too far! Here's a vid of Daisy from last night, we were just doing some doodling heelwork but she was nice and drivey and was enjoying it! Am going to upload the rest of Seita's UD round tonight

As long as the OP doesn't mind reading a novel :D

OMG *coffee splurk*

What will work best really depends on you and the dog - there is no one training tool that works best for everyone/dog. The other thing to consider is that a tool is no substitute for training - a dog can learn to pull on any tool if you use it as a bandaid for training. I've used martingale collars in the past with my dogs and they are my preference, but I used them with a training program not just on their own.

Sounds like we are both moving houses Ptolomy - our house went unconditional today and we have two weeks to move

Hmmm, sounds like Ruby and Daisy have the same problem I'll swap you OK then I keep trying to palm Ruby off to others, oh and Millie, 2 for 1 deal ;) Deal! You can have the Evil Beagle... please?? ;)

Hmmm, sounds like Ruby and Daisy have the same problem I'll swap you

LOL I would be like a kid at Christmas with a dog like that If people can do it with super high drive dogs I have no doubt you could do it with your labs! I love watching Schutzhund dogs for this reason, you can see how driven these dogs are, but the precision the handlers have with them is amazing. I couldn't get through to Daisy at all when she was on a scent, it's the same thing, once they are locked into it it's very hard to work with them - I could be physically pulling her away from a smell and she wouldn't even realise. But I can get her attention with a simple voice command now instantly because we've done loads of work to teach her self control and to be able to think through the arousal and learn that the best way to achieve drive satisfaction is through complying with my commands. She's not a particularly high drive dog when it comes to anything other than scenting though so that was a challenge in it's own A dog that naturally has tonnes of food or prey drive would be heaps of fun to train! That's kind of what I think, I try to prepare for anything in the ring, including lots of barking. I think my car would be torn to shreds if I left Daisy in there alone ETA: Some of the stewards at the trial yesterday were trying to tell me that I wanted my dog to be calm when in the ring. I was like, that's the opposite of what I train for ;) I don't want calm, I'd lose her to all the smells on the ground

I can get Daisy focused and drivey pretty instantly but I find she always works best if I warm her up first, running through some heel patterns etc. At training, I can work her on and off for more than an hour, and she always works best towards the end of the night. Once she's switched on it takes a lot to distract her and pull her out of drive! Thanks heaps Bedazzled I do a lot of setting her up and walking one or two steps then rewarding heavily etc but I think the biggest problem at the trial was the way I absolutely freaked out when I realised we'd stuffed up and we were next, I was so beside myself my hands were shaking ;) At least the next trial is a PM trial so I can have a glass of wine before hand Do they like to tug too RS? Never say never - I have seen the same with high prey drive dogs but if you can harness it and teach them self control and to think the through the arousal the results are amazing! ETA: I would love to crate Daisy or put her on a tie out before going in the ring but she is a terrible barker and yesterday at the trial we got told off after coming out of the ring, Daisy gave a single 'woof' and some people next to us cracked the shits because there was a dog in the ring in front of us barking dogs at trials obviously don't go down well

I find that the same with my dog, if I reward her when she's not expecting it, it keeps her on her toes as when she will get the reward is unpredictable.

I don't know anyone who does drive training where they wean the dog off the reward altogether be it food or prey - a lot of people work on remote rewards and increase the length of time the dog can stay in drive wthout a reward.

I think Corvus is referring to a trigger phrase or word, Kavik. To use an example: it would be like when I ask Daisy if she's ready to work or asking are ya gunna get it?? She switches into drive just from hearing the words and without having to see that I have food.

Yesmaam it's just an example for the article not an extensive how to on drive training

Awww thanks so much I am pretty sure Steve's suggestion involves wine :laugh: Thanks RS - the stewards were largely ok, it was me who panicked when I realised we had a minute or so before we went in when I know Daisy works best if I warm her up before hand. I will have to make sure I get my shit together next time and not let the nerves get in the way!!

Thanks Ptolomy Like I said to Steve today, we couldn't have been any worse so we can only get better from here That's fantastic Kath!!!! I am so disappointed I missed seeing her in the ring - you'll be at Caboolture won't you?? OMG Nic that is just too cute - and what a heap of potential! Sorry I haven't uploaded your vids yet, I went out for dinner and only just back home. Will have to do it tomorrow

Ella was on fire Will go through the vid I have of Ella on my camera ASAP ETA: Thanks TSD

Owning a scent hound I can tell you there is no quick fix for this problem I did it by using drive training, I harnessed my dog's natural drive to scent with food and built her drive for the food and for working with me that way - but it isn't something that can happen over night.

Seriously Amps I was a TOTAL mess just before going in the ring, I have no doubt that Daisy picked up on the awful energy I was putting out! I've been nervous before but not that nervous and all I could think was "OMG I've stuffed this up before we even went in the ring"

That depends if you are there telling me to suck it up or not :D