huski

Because it enables you to manage the behaviour, a dog with a predisposition for agressive or fearful behaviour is always going to have that predisposition but it can be managed effectively so that the behaviour is less likely to manifest. But if (for example) a dog that is more predisposed to aggression is raised and trained properly, and does not become aggressive, yet had it not been raised and trained properly it would have become aggressive - how can we argue that environment plays no part in aggression? I am not saying that aggression is never genetic, or that it's untrue that you can do everything right and still have a dog who develops aggression, just that I cannot fathom how the majority is entirely genetic and not influenced by environment on any level.

Cos, I am not arguing about the importance of genetics, as I have stated many times. I disagree with the posters who have said the majority of aggression is purely genetic and is not in any way influenced by environmental factors. Why place any importance on training and socializing our dogs if that is the case?

No, i'd never argue that but do you really agree that the majority of aggression displayed in dogs is entirely genetic? Am I really the only one who thinks that the way we train and socialize our dogs is also integral??

I've not said once that the potential for aggression can't be inherited, I totally agree there are some breeds who may be more likely to develop aggressive tendancies especially if they are not raised or managed properly - Staranais's Malinois is a perfect example of that. In the wrong hands her dog could become aggressive, but in the right hands she can become a wonderful working dog who has an excellent, stable temperament. That is dependent on how the dog is raised, not it's genetics. But we simply cannot blame the majority of aggression that dogs display on simply being genetics. That removes any responsibility that we have as owners to choose an appropriate breed, raise and train it properly. Let me give you an example: I have a beagle. We all know that beagles being hounds have pretty soft nerve, they are bred to be merry (according to the breed standard) little dogs that love their people, other animals and get on with everyone. At around six months old my beagle growled, snapped and bit me when I tried to remove her from the lounge (on more than one occasion). Is this is a reflection of genetics? No, it was poor leadership on my behalf that led to my dog thinking she could lay claim on whatever she wanted and boss me around. I learned to handle her the right way - it not only never happened again, but I can pick her up and move her off whatever piece of furniture I like without any problems. Please don't think I am discounting the importance of genetics or proper breeding. It just makes me feel sick in the stomach to think that people will pass off the majority of aggression displayed by dogs as something you can't do anything about because they were just born that way. Why even bother to raise, socialise and train our dogs if (according to some posters here) you could lock certain breeds in a kennel and treat it like shit and it will still come out the other end a perfect, happy, well adjusted dog. Then I'd assume that means you won't breed from your dog?

I'm not denying a lot of what makes our dogs what they are comes from genetics, that's why I always buy purebeds from good breeders. But we cannot discount the massive effect that environment has on them too. Not just with aggression but behaviour full stop. By playing down the importance of environment it removes our responsibilities as owners to raise, train and socialize our dogs appropriately. I cannot tell you the number of people I have run into with a dog they can barely control on the end of leash who despair because they bought x breed or xy cross expecting it to just grow up and be the perfect dog. I've run into my fair share of DA labs, BCs, oodles, goldies, SWFs - These dogs weren't all born aggressive. They are not breeds where aggression is bred for or desirable. Yet it happens.

Hmm, many trainers/behaviourists you talk to about aggression would disagree with you that the majority of dogs that display aggression were simply born that way. The vast majority of aggression is fear based and when you consider the number of aggressive dogs out there, ranging just about any breed, that's a hell of a lot of dogs just "born like that". I find it depressingly naive and quite honestly terrifying to hear that people think the majority of aggressive dogs were just born like that, with no influence from the environment in which they were raised All dogs are born with the ability to display aggression. ETA: IMO, how easily a dog can be rehabilitated depends on more than it's genetics. Say the dog is fear aggressive - how successfully it can be managed would depend on how long it had been able to learn that aggression was the way to deal with xyz situation, how ingrained the behaviour had become, how severe the aggression was, how capable the owner was to train and handle a DA dog etc etc.

How can we ever know when some reports have said it has shown previous signs of aggression and some even say the male owner (who is apparently in jail for the next three years) encouraged him to fight/act aggressively? Yes, he was attacked several times as a young pup/dog (he is fear aggressive). He was great with other dogs before being attacked and continues to be great with dogs he knows now. It is a certain type of dog that will trigger him (bigger, in your face, excitable type dogs). He's not remotely aggressive or even dominant with dogs he knows or is comfortable with. With training his aggression can be quite easily managed and has improved hugely, training a DA dog is about teaching them they have an option other than aggression not simply "training it out of them" - you can train a DA dog so you have excellent control over them but curing them is often not possible and depends on the dog. He will not ever be the kind of dog that can be taken to the dog park to run around with a heap of strange dogs, not just because of his "issues" but because while I can control him quite easily, controlling other dogs is not so simple. He comes from good breeding and his temperament is perfect in every other way, he is a happy, gentle, calm, lovely dog. The behaviourist who assessed him for me commented on what a calm and beautiful natured dog he is. I truly believe that had he been socialised more appropriately and had been exposed to positive experiences instead of negative ones, he would not be remotely DA.

Is not a word. And that's what I get for staying up late when I've been sick LOL But thanks for pointing it out... So you think majority of dogs who display aggression do so purely because they were born that way? You don't think the way we raise, socialise and train our dogs plays a significant part in the way our dogs behave? A puppy who is attacked by another dog in their fear period, and starts to exhibit dog aggression as a result, was born that way and the behaviour was not something that was influenced by a bad experience in it's most crucial development phase? 80% of a dog's brain develops by the time it's 16 weeks of age, we know enough about the way dogs develop to understand the importance of appropriate socialiation during their critical development phase. Take two puppies from the same litter. Put one in a home where it is not socialised outside of the home, that does not leave the house until it's at least 16 weeks (fully vaccinated). Whose owners do not commit much if any time to training their dog. Whose first experience outside of the home is being taken to a busy dog park where a group of bigger dogs rush to the gate the moment it comes in and crowd over it. Put one puppy in a home where it's owners are quite dog savvy and ensure it is socialised adequately from the day it is bought home at eight weeks. Pup is taken out and about, exposed to many different positive experiences and is engaged in training from day one. Pup is introduced to friendly dogs in a controlled environment. Both puppies come from the same breeding, the same litter, were for the first eight weeks raised in the same way. Yet do you think both puppies will grow into the same, confident, happy, well adjusted and well behaved adult dogs? Does one have a better chance than the other or are they both going to be the same regardless because they both came from good breeding and that's enough to guarantee our dogs will grow up to be good canine citizens? Why bother putting any emphasis on socialising and training our dogs at all if most of their temperament is genetic anyway?

Dog aggression and people aggression are NOT the same thing. What triggers a DA dog is not the same as what triggers a PA dog. I own a DA dog and you could not find a dog who is more calm and gentle around people, there is not an ounce of people aggression in him. It's dumb to argue that the way we raise, socialise and train our dogs has no impact on their temperament. Considering that the vast majority of aggression in dogs is fear based, how many dogs do you think are simply born that way? Are you saying that even if a pug was mistreated from eight weeks of age or younger, that they would still remain free of any behaviourial issues? I'm not trying to say all dogs are created equal - we all know that certain types of dogs are better suited to certain types of people. BUT - aggressive dogs can be and are created, every day. It's "total crap" to assume most aggressive dogs are just born that way and believing so does nothing to promote responsible ownership and serves only to lull people into a false sense of security - buy a certain breed of dog and it will just magically grow into the perfect pet, regardless of how you raise, socialise or train it. That. Is. Total. CRAP!

Completely and utterly agree with the above Nekhbet. What a sucky situation for you Brooke

Go Cider! What a good girl. I should be getting my articles tomorrow or by the end of the week Daft question - how does everyone store their articles? Do you keep the wood/metal/leather all separate? Is it alright just to put them in a container?

I wouldn't feed it as a complete diet, like Blab said it's cooked and contains grains. But I think as an occasional meal or for training treats it would be ok.

The iSqueaks have just arrived Mum knew they were coming and went outside and found the package. She started squeaking them and Micha went nutso, ran inside, ran to the front door totally excited and alert just from hearing a squeaky noise coming from somewhere I threw one for him outside a bit and got him to do a bit of lose heelwork, he was SO pumped and excited, gosh he loves squeaky things Daisy likes hers, she's in her crate right now chewing it - I'm letting her have it for a little bit because she's not squeaking it, Micha's has been put away until the next training session otherwise it would be squeaking non stop ;) Thanks so much Ptolomy, the dogs love them will do some video/pics up when I am feeling better.

I am too sick to do anything much with Daisy so last night I sat on the floor and held her dumbell out and got her to take it from my hand Upside is that she's developing a nice firm hold

LOL RnL! Perhaps that's the key - I need a good drink before I go in :laugh:

Yeah I want to keep training interesting and she really enjoyed learning what the dumbell was about and she's got a very nice hold now so I think she will enjoy learning about the articles.

Awesome! Perhaps both our dogs will be debuting in their class come May! Although I think you should post a video

Suddenly this is starting to sound even more nerve wracking than a proper trial Have you started judges training yet Nic?? I recall you were keen!

Thanks Seita! This is a really daft question, but is there always a mock trial at judges training?

Hopefully mine will be here tomorrow I also ordered some scent articles tonight which will be here this week as I had them express posted (impatient) so I have lots to look forward to this week

Well I was naughty tonight, I procrastinated by buying some some scent discrimination articles - don't think we use those in CCD oops!

You can get through quite a few months of training sometimes before someone tells you that. I've seen people at my club make it all the way into a trialling class before they learned that halti's aren't permitted in the trialling ring. And by then they basically have to start from scratch all over again!

I personally don't get it when I see people at obedience using head collars - if you want to trial, you can't have your dog wearing one in the ring, so at some point you will have to train the dog to work without it. Perhaps if they are having a lot of trouble controlling the dog early on, but you see them go up the ranks and you see the tool being used as a crutch - when the dog could work without it with the right methods/approach. Most of the triallers I know start teaching heel with no leash and collar anyway.

Except for Happypaws. I don't get it either

Aww, thanks so much for the words of encouragement Dyz :D And shhhh, May is AGES away :p Just working on getting her down stay more reliable and then hopefully we will be right to move onto the last part of our TID program and will then be ready to enter *gulp* :p