huski

A dog can be happy and healthy mentally and physically without having to regularly greet or play with strange dogs.

I agree, channel it and use it for something positive, and a way to teach her self control.

For me it depends on how my dogs value other dogs. It would be inconvenient to me to have a dog that has a higher desire to play with other dogs than it has for playing with me. It would be inconvenient for me to raise a dog to have a high value of other dogs and then have to train it to ignore them down the track when we are doing (for example) competition obedience - why not teach my dog from the start that other dogs are nothing special? If my dogs are well socialised and have a stabilised view of other dogs, then what is the benefit in going out of my way to let them play with strange dogs? I won't go to dog parks except for the odd DOL meet, and often my youngest dog won't play with dogs there much anyway. She gets to engage with other dogs every day as we own three, so I fail to see the benefit in going out of my way to let her meet greet and play with strange dogs. I think it is largely dependent on how they are raised, socialised and trained to view other dogs. I think a lot of that is determined by how the dog is exposed to other dogs in their early development stages - once a dog has learned that other dogs are highly rewarding it can be hard to change that value they have for other dogs. If you start out teaching them that other dogs aren't that exciting then you won't have that problem.

Yeah but they are examples of bad behaviour and I dont see how playing with your own kind is in the same category? Whether you are human or canine there has to be rules, boundaries & limitations to your actions... But the dogs don't see them as examples of bad behaviour. We consider it bad behaviour because it's inconvenient to us, just as there are times when having your dog play with another dog can be inconvenient or inappropriate. You also get dogs whose exhibit 'bad behaviour' because their desire to play with other dogs is so strong (i.e. pulling on the leash to get to another dog, ignoring you, failing to recall, barking/whining when unable to greet another dog etc). Don't get me wrong - I strongly believe in having a dog who has a stable view of other dogs. I don't have much interest in going out of my way to let my adult dog, who has a very stable view of other dogs and has no problems interacting with them, play with other dogs.

If you saw dogs who enjoy socialising you wouldn't have to ask the question. I am not fixated on having my dogs play with other dogs but when they do they have an absolute ball so why would I want to withhold this experience? I am interested in providing my dogs with an enjoyable and stimulating life and part of that involves trips to the puppy park which are anticipated with pure joy by my dogs. Just to play devils advocate, there are lots of things our dogs enjoy doing that we don't always permit them to do. There are plenty of instances I can think of where my dogs would have or are having an enjoyable experience that ive had to stop them from experiencing... Ie raiding the bin, chasing a small animal, scenting when I need to grab them and put them on leash. So I can understand AD asking the question what do we think our dogs get from playing with others - noting that he referrd to dogs your dogs don't know. I'm not keen on dog parks etc and I very rarely let my dogs run with strange dogs.

I agree play is important but I also think that as owners we often fail to engage our dogs in play. I see many owners who have no idea how to play with their dogs or engage them. Play is not just about playing with other dogs but also with us, their pack leaders. Although I think play is important I don't think that translates to letting your dog play with every dog they come across nor do I see the benefit in teaching them that playing with other dogs is the best thing in the world.

I think that's arguable anyway. I always find this topic makes interesting discussion, ever since I read this thread here: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...t=0&start=0 I think a lot of people allow their dogs to develop a higher value for other dogs than the dogs have for them, the owners. I don't think you need to deny your dog the company of other dogs, for them to see spending time with you as more valuable and exciting. I'm not interested in having a dog who falls over itself to play with other dogs. Daisy tends to have a relatively neutral value for other dogs, even when off leash with them she doesn't often have much interest in playing with them. She does play with Micha every day and I don't mind that at all. That's not to say that she can't cope with other dogs, any DOLers who have met her can attest that she is so easy going around other dogs and can be totally nonplussed dogs getting in her face. I like having a dog that would rather train or play with me than play with other dogs. For any future dogs I have, I will always socialise them with other dogs from puppy hood BUT I will do so in a way that encourages them not to seek other dogs out as The Best Thing Ever. I do believe we can shape our dogs values for things like other dogs depending on how we socialise them in their critical development phase.

I haven't posted any rubbish, I've simply asked you questions about what apparently occurred. If you want to air your dirty laundry on a public forum be prepare for people to question you. Obviously you must have been there to witness it otherwise you would not be able to call Miss Squish a liar - so, did she make the entire thing up and nothing happened at all? The dog was never off leash, or if it was, never ran off of it's own accord? You were there, why don't you tell us what really happened? You've done far more damage to your clubs reputation through your posts on this forum than Miss Squish could possibly have done herself.

Huh? Are you referring to my post? I don't attend the club or even live in SA, I am just saying that people who witnessed it have messages me privately about the incident. Would you mind responding to my questions regarding why the dog would be punished after being returned to the class and why it was off leash in the first place? So far not one instuctor from the club has been willing to answer. Honestly your behaviour on this forum would put me off attending the club regardless of if Miss Squish's account of the incident is accurate or not.

Tazmadman, I have heard privately from a couple of people who were there on the night and witnessed what happened – apparently the dog did a runner, was caught and when bought back to the class the instructor grabbed it, held it upwards by it’s check chain, pushed it towards the ground and shouted NO repeatedly in its face. I can’t possibly see how talking about training methods is not relevant, when the entire thread’s topic is about inappropriate methods being used at club training. As an instructor at the club, either you think it is appropriate to reprimand a dog who has run off, AFTER it’s been caught and returned to class, or you don’t. Another instructor at this club has already said this dog is notorious for being unreliable off leash, yet it has been allowed to work off leash – why? At the end of the day, Miss Squish has seen something that has made her uncomfortable and if you are really concerned about your club’s reputation, you should approach her to get her side of the story and reach a resolution… not come on here, ganging up on her and threatening her. Even if it was totally made up (which is unlikely given that there are other people there who witnessed it) you are only making yourself look unprofessional by the way you are behaving on the forum. If I were you, I would be taking the allegations against the trainer who treated the dog in this way very seriously instead of calling Miss Squish and the others who witnessed what happened liars.

I stewarded in the CCD ring at a trial recently and I was quite surprised at the level some of the dogs were at - I am hoping to go into novice not long after we get our CCD title (whenever that may be ) - you can tell some of the dogs in CCD don't even really understand what heel is But then again I saw some pretty average dogs in novice too. One of them actually ran out of the ring and wouldn't recall.

Exactly. And the benefit of linking to the TOT thread is that you can easily ask questions about it and the person who wrote it is available to answer them.

Don't get snippy. Read most of the posts not all but the majority is outrage at the incident posted. Ive seen very little discussion regarding training methods. Posts of other horror stories and suport for false reporting doesn't classify as discussion on training methods. Well seeing as you train at the club the OP is referring to, the ones whose methods are being bought into question, I don't see why you can't answer my questions regarding whether or not punishing a dog AFTER it's been caught is effective and WHY the dog was off leash in the first place when it is notorious (in your words) for unreliable off leash.

The big difference is that you're not supporting people who breed and keep dogs in appalling conditions. Buy from a rescue, the money goes back into rescue. Buy from a BYB/puppy farm/pet store, the money goes back into those places. It's about the principle for many people. I understand this reasoning, but isn't the rescue a third party outlet in support of the BYB, pet shop and puppy farmed dogs???. How so? It's not like you are putting money back into their pockets.

Huski, I am not 100% sure which clud is being referred to here but I can say it is unfortunately not a one off. I once visited a club down that side of town (I suspect the same club but could be wrong). At the invitation of a committee member I knew (and reason I was visiting) I joined in a class appropriate to the level of my dog. My dog that they had never met... I excused myself from class after being told I needed to grab my dog by the scruff and lift and shake her back into a sit when she laid down in a sit stay - reason she laid down was stress due to the person next to us doing the same to their dog. I was told I needed to do this lift and shake 3 times for it to be effective. Thank god they didnt decide to try and show me or they would not have known what hit them! I then sat at the side and watched. And saw a dog do a recall and veer off part way back to the handler at which point people came charging out shouting at the dog and waving things. causing it to run off the opposite direction where another person was luckily able to get it befroe it reached the road. When I spoke to the person I knew at the club about this I was told the dog does that every week. I was very disappointed and not at all comfortable with what I had witnessed. This was quite a few years ago now and I would have hoped with information on training methods being more widely available that things at clubs would have changed, sadly it seems not. I took a long break from training at clubs and that was in part due to frustration at things I saw - I had volunteered, I had instrcuted, I had been on committees but felt i was hitting a wall and you can only do it so long before you wear out (or get concussion, lol) so at that point I stepped down. Now I go along and use clubs for training but pretty mich do my own thing. Gosh that's sad No wonder people get put off club training.

Really?? Yep, so you technically have to get four passes to get your novice title here

The "lies" you are questioning relate directly to whether or not the training methods used are appropriate. Personally I cannot see any reason why you would catch a dog who has run off and correct it once you caught it, or why a dog notorious for having no recall is allowed off leash in the first place.

That would be a highly recommended behaviourist who had seen your dog, diagnosed the issue and advised you personally on the way ahead? Sorry for disagreeing with you but the first thing ANY professional will tell you about aggression is that it is potentially dangerous to provide advice on the issue for a dog you've never seen. Don't believe me - check with the person you saw. Ask the professionals here. You've just done something they'd never do because they know that seemingly identical situations don't necessarily equate to identical dogs. You could be bang on the money with your advice - but the fact is that you've no way of knowing that and what you've suggested could cause harm. I have a friend with a small dog who got 20 stitches from being bitten by hers from taking a treat off him.. and she'd also been advised to punish growling. Despite what you may think adverse consequences can flow from dispensing advice over the internet. How long you've been a member here is of zero interest to me. I criticised your advice, not you because I thought it was potentially dangerous. Have a little think about my motives next time before adding eye rolls to your accusations of bullying. I like people here to be safe. I agree PF. Happypaws the advice you gave has nothing to do with your post count. I don't care who you are or how long you've been here, I'd disgaree with any body who posted the advice that you did for the reasons Poodlefan advised above. There are many reputable behaviourists who would disagree with the method just as there are some who would agree with it. This is a discussion forum and naturally we will all share our opinions on what we think will and will not work well for the dog in question. There are also a number of trainers and behaviourists who post on this forum too (one of which wrote the article I linked to above) so you will get a range of opinions posting here.

That's right, although you don't have to compete in CCD before going into novice. You can go straight into novice if you so desire. Each level require you to get three passes under at least two different judges in order to gain your title. Whereabouts in QLD are you? There are obedience trials on all the time and if you are interested in trialling it is worthwhile going to spectate at as many as possible before you enter.

Hi Bonnie Pup CCD stands for community companion dog and is the first 'level' of obedience competition, with the least amount of exercises and all exercises minus the recall and stays done on leash. Novice is the next class up and all exercises are done off leash. To be able to enter a novice comp in QLD you must first pass one novice sweepstake - which is exactly the same as a novice trial, except your points/pass won't count towards your title.

The big difference is that you're not supporting people who breed and keep dogs in appalling conditions. Buy from a rescue, the money goes back into rescue. Buy from a BYB/puppy farm/pet store, the money goes back into those places. It's about the principle for many people.

JJ, it really depends on how you plan to handle your dog too. I have taken my DA dog to obedience club, but we do our own thing and I don't push him to do things I know are too much for him. I don't let anyone else handle him and I won't do anything with him I am not comfortable with. Our club has a yellow ribbon policy for DA dogs or dogs that need space so you tie a yellow ribbon to their leash or collar to signify to others not to let their dogs get too close. I never had any problem, and I do much the same with Daisy now (even though she is not DA) because our training method does not 'gel' with doing an hour of class work. I pop into the class when it suits her and take her out before she loses interest. I think it's really important to know what your dogs limits are and be willing to say no to the instructor if they suggest you do something you or your dog are not comfortable with.

Ah thanks Tassie! Will be interesting to see what the results are at the conference this month.

Yes that's true that it's dependent on the dog, but there are trainers out there who have successfully trained high drive dogs to extreme reliability without full on Kohler style corrections.

There are plenty of trainers who train high drive dogs and do so without Kohler style leash corrections.