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huski

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Everything posted by huski

  1. It might help for anyone curious about modern ecollar training to view some videos on YouTube. A quick search showed me this one; No idea who this trainer is but the video demonstrates a trainer finding the working level for different dogs. It might give you a different picture on ecollar training if you aren't familiar with it.
  2. Simply grand many dogs would and do ignore low level stim. Like any training the dog needs to be conditioned to the stim without distraction. Most trainers will use the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog so training has to start in an environment that has low distraction.
  3. One thing I find as someone who takes my dogs out all the time is that the number one thing that makes the most positive impression is that my dogs have basic life skills and can behave themselves. If you want to help kids who are uncomfy around dogs or display your breed in a positive way train your dogs to have good manners. I am not interested in having strangers pat my dogs and don't invite it but every time I take my dogs out people comment on their training and good behavior. Nothing fancy either - just nice leash manners sends a great message to others.
  4. I don't get the big deal to be honest (in regards to Bunnings). An incident like this could happen in any public area dogs are permitted - in fact bites like this happen all the time because dog owners and parents don't understand canine body language. I take my dogs out in public all the time, they are well trained and socialised and behave impeccably. I would happily take them into Bunnings, but the lack of dog savvy by other owners, parents and kids is the reason my dogs always wear a 2.5" wide military style dog collar that says "DO NOT PET" whenever we go out somewhere.
  5. Have you ever used an e-collar Maddy? How many dogs have you seen trained with one, or trained yourself? I have seen numerous "soft tempered but highly prey driven" dogs trained to recall successfully, some with e-collars, some with other methods. To say something will "never" work is a big call, especially if you are referring to a form of training you aren't experienced with or familiar in. You're making assumptions about my levels of experience in trying to deal with that particular issue, in a breed I've worked with for almost 10 years. And you know what they say about making assumptions. No assumption, hence why I asked what your experience with the tool is, to be able to make such a blanket statement.
  6. Have you ever used an e-collar Maddy? How many dogs have you seen trained with one, or trained yourself? I have seen numerous "soft tempered but highly prey driven" dogs trained to recall successfully, some with e-collars, some with other methods. To say something will "never" work is a big call, especially if you are referring to a form of training you aren't experienced with or familiar in.
  7. Without question - owners need to have confidence, belief and hope that the dogs problems can be addressed.
  8. No, I think any training method or tool has the potential for negative fallout, for a variety of reasons. One of the worst and most dangerously behaved dogs I have seen was trained with an experienced handler who used food and a clicker. It was raised by the same handler from a puppy. The dogs needs weren't met and it was poorly managed. It bit a lot of people, badly. I feel it is a bit of dangerous territory to think it is only training with tools like e-collars that can have a high risk of fallout.
  9. I agree, it isn't tool related, it is failure to get results that makes owners give up on training their dogs.
  10. I am sure you know this, but just for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread who doesn't, there is an enormous difference between the output of an electric fence and a remote training collar.
  11. I have to respectfully disagree. IME it's much easier for the average dog owner to get results with a tool that gives them leverage and control like an ecollar than it is for them to get the same results with rewards. I am pretty skilled at using rewards. It's taken a long time to develop my skill to the point where I can train complex behavior easily and quickly with reward with the accuracy and precision I want. But If you can't teach the average pet owner success using rewards in the time frame they require the fall out can be that the dog is euthanized, dumped at the pound etc. IME it's very easy to teach the average person how to use an ecollar properly.
  12. IME dogs like sighthounds are generally selectively bred to have a much higher threshold to prey drive. I think this in general makes them more suitable pets which is why we see so many in pet homes. I mentioned genetic memory in a separate conversation to HW earlier today and I also find that very interesting. How do sheep dogs 'know' what a sheep is and how to herd it when they've never seen one before? Why did my young Mal light up and start jaw chattering and foaming at the mouth when she saw someone wear a bite suit for the first time? She had never seen it before but she knew what is was and what she wanted to do with it :laugh:
  13. Some dogs have a higher threshold to drive than others which can make motivating them more difficult. Obviously dogs that have higher drive and a lower threshold to drive triggers like prey are easier to motivate, but easy to motivate doesn't = easy to train, particularly if we look at life skills where we want high drive dogs to learn to switch off. None of these things make a dog untrainable, there are just different challenges you face with different breeds. ETA: if you look at the flip side, your Dane might not be as easy to motivate and it takes more to get him to go into drive. But while my dogs are easy to put into prey drive, that doesn't just mean for things I control like tugs. It could mean a car driving past. Or a kid on a bike. Or a mum pushing a pram. So you are walking a dog down the street who could lock on to any moving object and go into prey drive, that means shaking, salivating, foaming at the mouth, lunging on the leash, barking and being completely locked onto the prey in desperation to bite it. If the dog doesn't have the right training behind it it can't be corrected or interrupted once it goes into drive for some thing else. Control is not an option with dogs like that, or you'll find yourself in a lot of trouble. that's what I mean when I say easy to motivate doesn't also make a dog easy to train.
  14. I completely understand what hounds are like - I live with one! :D There are many different ways to train a life skill with recall... I have said on DOL many times I fine tuned Daisy's recall with an e-collar. You do what works for the dog in front of you - without question not all dogs are as easy to motivate as others. But that doesn't make it impossible. A lot of dogs will ignore an e-collar when they go into drive for something - IME that is generally poor conditioning of the collar more than anything else. But, corrections can also increase drive, a lot of people use prong collars when training protection for that reason.
  15. I agree 100% - but we weren't talking about competition prospects, just whether a dog can be trained a basic life skill like recall. Like I said in another post, it seems to be a common misconception that the more out of control or badly behaved a dog is, the more drive it has.
  16. But aren't you are starting with a breed that has been selectively bred to look to and work with people, not by itself for the most part out of sight of humans? They may not be biddable but few would argue that they are not highly trainable. Of course, but it's very very easy for them to be steered off course. You can't have the ultimate sports car without knowing how to drive it, or any slight tap of the steering wheel could crash it. The consequence of getting it wrong is much more severe. I don't believe there is any breed that isn't trainable and IME any dog can be trained basic life skills.
  17. Try training a sighthound. Really. They aren't strong willed or even blowing you off, they just don't see the point about what you, with your clicker and tug toy want them to do. They'd rather sun bake. Want to jerk them around and play hard ball? They shut down As a trainer observed when I was agility training Howie - "he hoisted the 'bored' flag, there goes any further training for him". I don't have a sight hound myself, but I do have a scent hound. I know what it's like to handle a dog with low to no pack drive who can self reward (scenting) faster than you can pull a treat out and even if you did... She will spit it out if she's mid scent. You can't train every dog the same way. You have to look at the dog in front of you and adjust your training accordingly. ETA: I don't believe it is pack drive that makes dogs like Mals a popular choice for training and working roles. It's their insanely high drive that makes them easy to motivate - which can't be confused with easy to train IME.
  18. While I agree prey drive can look different in different breeds, I wouldnt class Mals as typically bidabble dogs. I have met A LOT of typical "biddable" breeds that couldn't give a crap about their handlers. Pack drive isn't the strongest instinct in a dog like a Mal. Prey drive generally far exceeds anything else. ETA: when it comes to basic life skill like building a reliable recall (including off live prey) I've never met any dog that couldn't be trained to a reliable level. Including hounds
  19. A dog that can reach 50kph within a couple of strides also brings challenges. I don't question that it does, but being able to have control of a high drive dog doesn't mean the dog lacks drive. I've seen pet owners with moderately driven dogs who can't control them around prey, lack of control doesn't equal more drive.
  20. Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it. I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive. How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it. See, to me, that suggests their drive isn't that high compared to something like a greyhound. I've seen greyhounds with completely shattered hocks continue to chase the lure, screaming in pain as they go. They would run themselves to death in pursuit of something and to be blunt about it, liver treats, tug toys or praise could never be more rewarding than the chase. It doesn't seem to matter if chase has ever been rewarded further, the chasing is enough. And when the behaviour is its own reward.. Plenty of people claim it can be done but curiously, I've never seen a greyhound successfully trained not to chase. My dogs would do that too (and I have seen the results of high drive working dogs who don't have appropriate training and management many times) had they not been raised and trained to believe nothing gives them a better chance at achieving drive satisfaction than my commands. Control with the kind of dogs I have is a necessity, not an option.
  21. I love training my dogs too, and I would spend more time with them training them than the vast majority of people. But there is nothing wrong with pet owners who want to take the easier option. A lot of people enjoy their dogs more, once training issues like leash pulling and recall are addressed, it means they can take their dogs out more, give them more freedom, and enjoy spending more time with them :)
  22. I'm not saying that in every training situation an ecollar could be used to get the same results faster. And by saying I want results fast, I also don't mean everything should happen overnight. Training competition level heel work for example takes a long time and has to be broken into many stages to get it really great. But with any training I am doing I want to see the dog progressing and understanding within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise how would you know it's working?
  23. I'm definitely not saying you would use an ecollar to train everything. Just a general comment on the idea taking the longer route = better result.
  24. There are lots of things that are dangerous behaviours that need to be addressed not unlike snake training - aggression, for one, can be extremely dangerous and time imperative. But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result.
  25. That would depend on your level of skill as a handler. Just like we can train dogs to respond to the recall cue without needing to see that we have a reward, you can train a dog not to become collar smart.
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