huski

Wizzy says thank you SM! I have to say I have LOVED following all of the updates on little Ping! What a dude!

So handsome! Happy birthday little dude. I can't believe our puppies are so old now

My home life with the dogs is very relaxed too because I don't have them loose in the house 24/7 :laugh: I wouldn't raise a dog any differently now, it's just the consequence of mismanaging dogs like the Mals is much more severe than the average pet dog. The girls will chill out on the lounge with me at night time while I watch TV and stuff, but I only give them those sorts of privileges when they are good at chilling out in the pen/crate/bed etc.

Some dogs required more management than others, you could probably ask the question in reverse by saying how could owners live with the level of management you use with Justice when you take him out or plan to. If you accept your dog/s require a specific level of management you get so used to it that you don't think about it any more, you just do it. I don't need to strictly manage my dogs when they are together in that they get along and can be around each other and interact appropriately with each other, but the Mals require a higher level of management in general compared to other dogs. They are never loose in the house when visitors arrive for example. If I do let them out, they are on a place bed or in a down stay next to me. They greet people on my command only. They understand these are the rules that come with the privilege of being in the house, so when I let them in the house they automatically go to their crates, they won't come out even if I leave the door open, unless I release them. If I put them on their place beds they stay there and don't get off for any reason, unless I tell them to. I build these default behaviours in as part of management. It might sound extreme to some people who have their dogs loose in the house 24/7, but it is second nature to me.

But that's what I mean when I say management is critical. If you left a group of dogs to their own devices I am sure there would be fighting. My dogs can be together with no problems, but I think it would be a bit silly to let them run loose together 24/7 and think there would never be any altercations. It's not 'their knowledge of my expectations' that stop them fighting, it is that when together they always know what they should be doing, as opposed to being left to make their own fun, so there is never an opportunity where they could start a fight.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

...but when it comes to instinct you can only correct respectively manage the behavior that results from this instinct, you can't correct the instinct as the cause for this behaviour? It's not about whether the way she exhibits frustration is instinctive, it is about why she is exhibiting frustration in the first place.

Oh dear! Gees they are funny! Oh dear! Gees they are funny! In a Schadenfraude kind of way :laugh: I knew there was a reason I like to keep my dog on the outside of my elbows... tho she usually gets me on the waist or ribs... if she was a little bit taller... Malinois.... who would have them?? :laugh:

Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Maybe when you are in front of him he sees you as blocking his access to fun (equipment)? If he is mid way through the course and you release him to his favourite reward (food/tug) would he stop running the course to come to you to get rewarded? If not that would indicate to me that there is a problem with your reward system, he should believe working with you gives him access to the things he loves to do and your rewards, not that you are the fun police or getting in the way of fun.

The problem I see when we correct things like the behaviour you are describing, Willem, is that in this context it often doesn't address the actual cause of the behaviour and even if she stops doing it, I would be very surprised if you don't see other symptoms arise because the root problem hasn't been addressed.

If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh:

Frustration isn't a bad thing, and IMO dogs need to learn to work through frustration. That being said, 9/10 when I see dogs biting handlers, jumping, barking at them etc it is a problem with their reward system. Your handling isn't quite right, the dog doesn't understand how to earn reward, you don't have a clear communication system, the dog sees you as stopping the fun rather than making the fun happen - these are all common reasons we might see this behaviour. I have the kind of dogs that force me to work through these problems by addressing the root cause rather than correcting the symptom - physically challenging them won't end in my favour. I have zero chance at physically overpowering them, so I control them by building a solid relationship and foundation in training where we have a clear communication system and we both have the same goals.

I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course?

Working ability is critical in our dogs especially when pups go to homes that want a personal protection dog or to do bite sports like IPO. While I hope I never have a reason that my dogs have to take a live bite, they are trained and tested on multiple decoys in different situations, environments and trained to have skill. Our puppy owners who do sport will test their dogs in the ring but IPO bite work is very different to personal protection. In places like Europe where ring sports are much more popular (and you have a bigger variety) it's much easier to test the dogs skill and purpose. ETA: Regarding the question about going against the dogs natural instinct. I expect my dogs to have excellent life skills (leash walking, recall, behave in the house etc) and I also expect them not to bite people unless I tell them otherwise or am directly threatened. I work with their natural instinct and genetics a lot, which is what allows me control to tell them when to use those instincts and when not to.

I feed raw but I'm not hardcore about it, I don't care if my dogs eat cooked meat. But if you do a lot of training and your dog is eating a large amount of its daily intake through training you have to get creative about how to make that work. My beagle for example is small and when I am prepping her for a trial she eats all of her food through training. She would love to eat cooked treats like roast meat, sausage etc only but it's not good for that to be her full diet.

I train with raw mince meat all the time, especially with pups who can only eat a small amount of food over the course of the day (so it is better and easier to hand feed them through training). If I have time I will often quickly blanch chopped raw beef off cuts (chuck steak etc) in hot water to 'seal' the outside but keep it raw inside.

My dogs are totally deprived. They all have a crate each (Daisy is the only one with anything inside it) and the Mals have a raised place bed each.

Where are you moving to Lisa??

Wiz had two litters this year so our trialling plans were put on hold. So I am looking forward to having 2016 to dedicate to getting in the ring :D Wisdom - start off with some rally - hopefully knock off CCD and CD now we have some time Daisy - get the last leg of her RN title and maybe enter RA Blaze - keep progressing her obed work, hang on and hope we get through maturity with as little conflict as possible :laugh: and then maybe look at Rally or CCD by the end of the year.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer. I would suggest there are individual differences SG - the research is very sparse. There are too many factors to take into account really. If he dog has a higher level of arousal their working level, that is the lowest perceivable level to the dog, may be higher. That would be the most common reason the dog would ignore the stim just like a dog too invested in distraction will ignore food rewards. the stim is typically used as a cue to the dog, in the teaching phase we would give the stim before the command so it isn't used as a correction for the wrong behavior. If someone is finding the need to amp up the collar to get the dog to comply because it's ignoring the working level that's handler error not a normal part of using the tool.

I would be quite happy to see manufacturers make even lower output collars. Though vocalisstion can occur in training for many different reasons - including frustration or prey drive, so that is a poor judge of whether a training method is effective. Snook I'm sure there are people out there who misuse ecollars like they do any tool, but I'm sure if you took a poll of pet owners you would see the majority have never used an ecollar. Its a huge stretch to imply many severe behavior cases are caused by the misuse of the tool. ETA: we see plenty of clients who don't want to use certain methods or tools. We see a lot of clients who come to us for training in drive and dog sports and physical correction isn't part of that program. It's funny how some people opposed to the use of certain tools like to ignore or by pass the fact many of our programs don't use physical correction and training dogs in drive has always been what we are most known for.

huski,...the video is all about finding the right level - I actually miss a few comments about the varying resistance of the fur: I would assume that moisture, clipped or not clipped, pressure of the collar (could even vary depending on the posture of the dog), even if the dog was bathed a day before would have an impact on how the dog feels the electric shock...so I guess you would have to go through this for every single trainings session? Pretty much. You would always test the dogs working level and adjust accordingly. Keeping in mind there is only a very small difference between each level, so it's not like going from level 5 to 6 is going to give the dog a huge shock or anything like that.

Stories you've heard or dogs you have actually seen damaged by ecollars Corvus? We see pet owners with dogs who have severe behaviourial problems here on a daily basis, after doing my job full time for the last 3.5 years I've never found one of those owners have even heard of an e-collar, never mind used one - yet their dogs have been severely damaged by poor training and/or poor management anyway... I wonder how if they haven't used e-collars? /sarcasm. I have a hard time believing even you actually believe your insinuation that "half the damage" to dogs is done by trainers using e-collars. It's not "lovely" to see a video of low stim e-collar training, it is how the tool is used properly. Suggesting people who do use e-collars are secretly using them on a high level is, at best, insulting. Abuse is in the user, not the tool.

Was that aimed at me? No not aimed at anyone - just a general comment.