ricey

If he went via Ivy, then chances are that he stayed with me for a time. I was the pick up person for Ivy's rescue pit bulls at the Perth airport. A lot of Ivy's dogs spent a little time with my pit bull Hobbes, and with my dingo/kelpie/ferret cross Lizzie, and my Maltese/Shih Tsu/Silkie cross Lulu. I'd have to say that only Lulu scared the pit bulls. "Ivy" is Ivy Bilos who lives in Kalgoorlie. Ivy spent literally over $100,000 dollars paying for the air fares and rehoming costs for dozens and dozens of pit bulls from NSW, Queensland, Victoria, ACT, and South Australia. And then there are the dozens and dozens of pit bulls from WA that she paid for to get rehomed here. Ivy is a god; we should all worship her for what she has done for our breed in Australia. I am honoured to count Ivy as a friend. She is still going to bat for our breed and I know that she always will. ricey

Looking at Nudge, I was sure that he came through my yard on the way to a new home in Kalgoorlie so I checked my photos. However, that chest marking is very distinctive and I couldn't find a photo of Nudge so he probably isn't one of the pitties I helped with (I took photos of rearly all the red nose/red pitties that came through my yard so I can't be sure, but I think I would remember that distinctive chest marking). Lovely looking dog; it is shameful that these dogs are persecuted in most parts of Australia. ricey

Go girl; Bastian was your boy and he always will be. Time marches on and the love we have for our dogs does as well. Occasionally we are lucky enough to meet our soul mate and Bastian was yours. ricey

What a handsome dog! I am so sorry for your loss. ricey

It is so hard when they go; it is so hard just before they go; it is so hard after they have gone. Sharing your life with dogs is so hard; maybe we should all do macrame or collect stamps or become train spotters. Yeah, right! Dogs enrich our lives, just like Karma did yours, and we are so much better off for the dogs in our lives. I feel your pain; my soul mate pit bull terrier Hobbes is 12 and he survived a malignant melanoma 3 years ago and he would be lucky to have another 2 years left. I will never share my life with another dog like Hobbes, as you will never have another dog like Karma. But I will always have dogs in my life. Life would be a bit crap without a dog. I hope that I have not upset you with this post; I have tried to share with you how important dogs are for me, as they obviously are for you. I can sometimes be a bit clumsy with the words I use. ricey

A lovely eulogy for an amazing dog! It is a pity that they burn so brightly for such a short time. But they light up our lives so well, and we are so much better off for the short time they spend with us. ricey

Hi Aussie3, Yeah, I too like the lean dogs (my Hobbes is a bit too porky at 27kg); I must get around to putting him and me on a weight reduction and exercise programme as I should lose 12 kilos and Hobbes should lose 3 to 4 kilos). You know what they say about dogs looking like their owners Yes, you can own an APBT safely here in WA if you know the loophole (which is big enough to drive a road train packed with pit bulls through :laugh: ). I was a bit concerned that I should not have blabbed about the loophole on a public forum, but the rangers here in WA know about it anyway and don't seem to be concerned. They have enough work to do already without having to identify, round up and destroy perfectly good family pets. Having said that, there are reportedly a few individual rangers from a few Perth metro councils who have an anti-pit bull agenda, but only a few. At present, the WA restricted breed regulations are unenforceable, but that situation could change at any time on a whim of the government. As governments of both persuasions (Labor initially around 11 years ago, and Liberal a year or two ago) have enacted different versions of the restricted breed regulations, and both versions are equally unenforceable, I am hoping that nothing will change any time soon. So if I was to get back on topic and answer the original poster's question "what constitutes a pit bull?", here in WA there is no such breed as a pit bull (as long as its owner has registered it as something else). There were some pit bull owners whose dogs where previously registered as American Pit Bull Terriers prior to the first enactment of the original restrictions in 2002 by the Gallop Labor government, and these dog owners had to comply with the restricted breed regulations. Most of these APBTs would be over 12 years old now, and most would be over the rainbow bridge. I see pit bull terriers out and about with their owners here in Bayswater WA most days, and I have never seen an APBT with a muzzle or a fluoro 'dangerous dog' collar. ricey

I have to agree you Rocketeer; nearly all the rescue APBTs from NSW that I dealt with were red nosed fawn. I guess that all the council rangers found them easy to identify and so over breeding this type of APBT was not good for them. Most Australians seem to think that all APBTs are buckskin with red noses I agree with you about sizes of APBTs; the UKC breed standard for APBTs allows for a huge range in height and weight The ADBA breed standard does not even mention weight or height , but emphasises balance in all aspects I think we both agree that when the APBT is not agile and athletic, they become lesser examples of the breed. 35 pound lower limit for males is a touch under 16 kilos; 60 pounds is a touch over 27 kilos.. In my dreams I think of when the breed restrictions are finally repealed that both ends of the APBT spectrum will become available. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen anytime soon. It is good talking with you. Cheers, ricey

There's nothing wrong with bully type Amstaffs or blues. Everyone has their own preferences. Each to their own. True, but the American Staffordshire Terrier is a terrier as well as a bull breed so it should be both. And while there is nothing wrong with blue AmStaffs, there certainly is something wrong with breeding a dog just because its colour is popular and worth a bit of money. Also, I have seen AmStaffs whose legs are so wide apart that they can hardly support their barrel chests or massive heads. The AmStaff should be an athlete, not a body builder. Like you, I like bully type AmStaffs but not when it is over done. Primo is the dog that the AmStaff was based on; when AmStaffs look nothing like Primo, they are not as AmStaffs should be. ricey

Hi juice, I should post up pictures of the APBT's I helped rescue from the eastern states. Most were red with red noses and nearly all were male; I guess there is a chance that the red boy your kids are missing came through my yard. I have been off DOL for around 4 years and I have forgotten how to post photos on DOL. I have photos on my Photobucket account of all the dogs I helped rescue (most were pit bulls but there are a few little fluffies, kelpies, blue heelers, bull terriers, and at least 1 'ban dog'). I will get around to working out how to post their photos. As for your request for photos to describe how an APBT or an American Staffordshire Terrier should look, I only have two photos of a dog called Primo. Both APBT's and AST's should look like Primo; as you probably know, Primo was the Colby line American Pit Bull Terrier that was used as the 'reference dog' when the American Staffordshire Terrier standard was established in 1934 or thereabouts. Primo is an excelllent example of an American Pit Bull Terrier and is also what American Staffordshire Terriers should be. An American Staffordshire Terrier should be indistinguishable from an American Pit Bull Terrier. They should not only look the same, they should behave the same and be the same. ricey

Thanks, it is so good to be back! I'm on my best behaviour, aint never gonna get banned again ricey

Hi Jed, I know you said but I am going to answer anyway LOL. Nope, the breeding and the owning of intact American Pit Bull Terriers is expressly verboten in WA. However,......... The WA Restricted Breed regulations were drafted very badly (supposedly this was done deliberately ) and there is no way of enforcing them. Unlike other states, council rangers were not given the authority to determine a disputed dog's breed, and so the farcical situation exists in WA where you can register a Newfoundland as a Chinese crested/pekingese cross and no ranger is able to tell you that you are wrong. Here in WA, the RSPCA is actively rehoming American Pit Bull Terriers, which would probably come as a major surprise to DOL members from Queensland, New South Wales and Victoria. Hey, it would probably cause an apoplectic seizure in Graeme Smith, but that would be a good thing . Some 3 or so years ago when the anti pit bull hysterical legislation was ramping up in the eastern states, WA became a safe haven for pit bulls that otherwise would have been killed by the state machine. I played a small part in helping to rehome 15 or so of these dogs. So yes, it is easily possible and legally quite safe to own an intact American Pit Bull Terrier in WA, except that you have to register your dog as another breed. I think that I will register mine as a Dogue de Bourdeaux/Hungarian puli/Shih Tsu/Tibetan Mastiff cross. I will ensure that my dog is very well socialised, very well trained, and never a problem for the society I live in. As for your question Amstaffs are fine dogs, and they certainly are American Pit Bull Terriers, but they have been bred in different directions over the last 80 years. I see a few Amstaffs that are fine athletic dogs but I see more that are overly blocky concrete slabs of dogs that are not athletes. The American Pit Bull Terrier has always supposed to have been "bull AND terrier" not just bull. Well bred American Pit Bull Terriers were never supposed to be much above 28kg. My Hobbes at 26kg is near the upper weight range for American Pit Bull Terriers, and if I worked and dieted him he would probably drop 3 or 4kg to sit at 22 to 23kg. American Pit Bull Terriers are not supposed to be big dogs. I am appalled by AmStaff breeders who proudly state how big their dogs' heads are and how much they weigh. I am going to shut up now before I dig an even bigger hole for me to fall in. I do like Amstaffs but most of them are not for me. If I was going to get an Amstaff, I'd opt for the runt of the litter as long as it was confident. Small confident Amstaff pup = Pit Bull Terrier (maybe) . ricey

Hi Jed, Long time, no speak (my fault entirely for behaving badly 4 years ago and deservedly getting banned). I think it is a bit sad that 4 years later on, the same questions are being asked on DOL about American Pit Bull Terriers and the same misinformation is still being peddled. It is like I didn't miss anything by not being on DOL for 4 years; nothing has changed. There are still people in Australia (like Bill Shorten for example) who describe American Pit Bull Terriers as 'sharks on legs'. Emotive, populist crap, but what else do we expect from a politician? My pit bull Hobbes is getting old; he is 12 going on 13 years. He survived a malignant melanoma 3 years ago and he still plays like a puppy, but I think that he probably only has 2 or 3 years at most left. I will be devastated when he goes. Hobbes was the dog that showed me how rewarding being a dog owner could be. I have no idea what I will do to fill the void he will leave. Perhaps I will get a puppy; I have never had a puppy as all my dogs have been adult rescue dogs. Maybe I should get a standard poodle puppy; these are fine intelligent and tough dogs. But I hanker after an American Pit Bull Terrier puppy, male and intact. The way I look at it, having an intact male dog is just like having any other dog. You have to take responsibility for the dog and ensure that it is not a problem. I have never owned an entire male dog in the 30 or more years that I have "owned" dogs. I am yet to be convinced of all the 'health benefits' that are supposed to come from sterilising your dog. Cynically, I think that dog rescues spout a whole load of bull dust about how lopping off your pup's testes will lead to a longer and better life for it. If I had the time and inclination, I'd like to breed dogs but I figure that I know nothing about breeding dogs so I should leave it to the experts. But who is breeding good American Pit Bull Terriers in Australia? There are only two reputable APBT breeders that I know of in WA and they may be the only reputable APBT breeders in Australia. Cheers, ricey

Hi all, To me, the issue is simple; should a human be able to dictate that if they die, their dog dies with them? To me, the answer is a simple 'No'. Sure the dog may have been a tad devastated for a while without its human, but it would get over that. The somewhat trite stories such as the 'dog on the tucker box' and 'red dog' pining ad infinitum for their missing human are not the norm. A 5 year old superbly trained Lab guide dog; how hard would this dog have been to rehome? People would have been queuing up! Having said all this, I really have to take issue with the would be vigilantes of Terre Haute who would like to hunt Sheila Stadler's son Andrew down for doing what he thought his mother wanted. Andrew did what he thought he was obliged to do at the time and if he got it wrong, that was not his intention. Me, I figure that Sheila probably just wanted her dog interred with her when her dog eventually died of old age or other natural causes. Sheesh, I'd like my Hobbes ashes interred with me when I shuffle off this mortal coil. I am not sure why I'd like this as I am a devout atheist and hold no hope that there is a life after death. We'd both be dead and in reality we would not be able to experience any comfort from lying together and gently decomposing. Should Andrew 'burn in hell' as wanted by the Terre Haute vigilantes? Nope, hell is a bit of mythology popularised by those kiddy fiddlers in Rome who wear funny hats and opulent robes and think that it is OK to protect paedophiles from the police. In the scheme of things Andrew is as pure as the driven snow. If you are going to get upset about something I'd suggest that there are far better targets for your spleen than Andrew. Cheers, ricey

But the biggest turn-off in a dog's name was the name that Lizzie was given by the pound; 'Fanta'!! Imagine naming a dog after an awful orange flavoured bottle of fizzy vomit that no child would admit to liking. It was dog abuse by a dog pound. Only Graeme Smith has abused dogs more. ricey

My Hobbes was originally called 'Sid' but it interfered with his training "Sid, sit". So I called him 'Hobbes' after the intelligent and calm stuffed tiger from Calvin and Hobbes. It seemed to suit him, in much the same way as I resemble Calvin in a lot of respects. ricey

Dogs can be (and some are) bred to promote aggressive tendencies. Let’s not forget that many cute white fluffies were originally bred as ratters and with irresponsible breeding some of those aggressive tendencies can re-emerge. Failure to properly socialise and train dogs can also reinforce these negative tendencies. Unfortunately, what most responsible owners don’t want to acknowledge, is that there are far too many morons out there who actively seek dangerous and aggressive dogs. Just do a Google search and you will find plenty of nuts asking questions like “I want to get a dog that will rip the nuts of anyone that comes through my front door, and won’t be put down by a few gunshots, should I get a pit-bull or a Rottweiler or what?” As usual it is these jerks and their dogs that give the breed a bad name. The difference I suppose is this: If an irresponsible owner buys a “white fluffy” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic little nutter that will bite someone, and which they will end up dumping at the pound. If an irresponsible owner buys a “pit bull” from a bad BYB, and doesn’t train and socialise the dog properly, they may end up with a psychotic nutter that will savage someone, possibly fatally. So the solution to your problem is to ban every dog over about 10kg right? Because any dog over 10kg that hasn't been trained or socialised properly has the potential to savage someone, possibly fatally. The other point you are forgetting is that banning breeds doesn't eliminate them, it creates a DEMAND on the black market for that specific demographic you mention, making the problem much worse. Anecdotally it seems that in NSW there are more pit bull type dogs around now than there were prior to the legislation coming in, and certainly pups of unknown heritage are fetching $1000+ when prior to the legislation they would have been worth a few hundred bucks at most. Yes Banning doesn't eliminate them. Has the demand gone up? I think the hype around has died down in recent years. I think actually responsible pet owners and working dog breeders are associating less with the breed due to the liabilities of owning the breed and the amount of w@nkers the breed attracts. Hi Rocketeer, There are w@nkers attracted to all dog breeds. You only have to spend a bit of time surfing DOL's pages to find ample evidence of that. But the breed is not the problem; it is the w@nker. The American Pit Bull Terrier is not the problem. Same as the German Shepherd was never a problem breed, but it had some problem owners. The research and the resultant evidence is clear; any prefecture that uses breed specific legislation to address its 'dog problem' just makes its problem worse. Only a very stupid or ill-informed government would use breed specific legislation to address its perceived dog problem. I don't pretend to have all the answers or know everything about dogs but I do know that all the evidence suggests that breed specific legislation is a crock of sh!t that only losers support. I support the American Pit Bull Terrier; I do not resile from that. The American Pit Bull Terrier is amongst the best of dog breeds. The American Pit Bull Terrier should not be judged by the actions of some of its owners. Nor should it be judged by Murdoch press 'journalists' (I use that term loosely). ricey

Hi Sabbath, I think you have pointed out the limitations of forum posts. Here, most of us are on the same page and what to us seems obvious is not what the general public perceives. Me, I just keep chipping away at the general public's ignorance about dog issues and if I have managed to change one person's views about dog legislation in a week, I consider that to be a good week. Good weeks are rare. Cheers, ricey

People continally say this in regard to training dogs to be aggressive and bite which really couldn't be further from the truth. Unless an individual dog is genetically equipped to do so, at best you may get most dogs to bite if cornered and abused perhaps, but the ability to be actively aggressive is in the dogs genetics. Where professional training of biting/attacking dogs is active, police, security, armed forces etc, a large proportion of individual dogs of breeds renowned for successfully training in these disciplines will not attack/bite people and consequently fail in that role, even dogs who are trained to bite sleeves and suits worn by people, many are biting/attacking in prey drive for reward of the equipment (tug toy) and will not bite/attack people without the equipment being worn regardless of the training to do otherwise. The German Shepherd is the most commonly used breed globally for professional biting/attacking working roles which is said to be only aorund 1% of the breed in general is genetically capable of being trained in such a role? With that said in relation to Pit Bulls, yobbo's are often blamed for Pit Bull aggression by raising/training dogs to show aggression and ultimately bite, but the question is: Why are the yobbo's using Pit Bulls and not GSD and Rottweillers etc to create dangerous dogs? It's often said by anti BSL activists that the yobbos at breed ban will move onto something else on the basis that "any" dog can be trained to be dangerous?. The next question: How are the yobbos going to train just any dog or breed to fullfil a role that professional trainers can't achieve with the wrong dogs and breeds? Is the Pit Bull type of dog easier genetically for the yobbo to extract aggression from, than other breeds, are they an easier dog to make dangerous? I don't know the answer to that from a BSL perspective, but is it to do with genetic capability to attack/bite being greater than other breeds being a reason for restriction? Hi Santo, I have to disagree with you here; a good dog trainer is able to train an individual dog to exhibit the behaviours that the trainer wants the dog to do. You can train a poodle to round up sheep; it won't be as good at this as most border collies but it can be done. You can train an American Pit Bull Terrier to round up sheep as well; if you search back through DOL's archives you will find a thread with pictures from a pit bull owner in (I think) Victoria detailing just how good a sheep dog their pit bull was. I have been around dogs for a very long time; I remember how back in the 1960's in Australia, German Shepherds (or Alsatians as they were called then) were considered to be the 'devil dog'. Back then, German Shepherds were the dog that the popular press identified as the breed you needed to be scared of. Australia had the world's longest 'breed specific legislation' that targeted the German Shepherd. As the German Shepherd was feared by the ignorant public, meat heads who wanted a dog to make themselves look tough chose to own a German Shepherd. Later, the 'cool dog' to own if you were a young thug who wanted a 'tough' dog became the Dobermann, and then the Rottweiler. So, yobbos/thugs have used the GSD and the Rottweiler as their weapon of choice historically. Your point about is erroneous; these people have used the GSD and the Rottweiler for their purposes before, and when they can no longer access pit bulls they will revert to using GSD's and Rottweilers again. Or some other dog breed........All dogs are genetically equipped with a set of carpet knives in their mouths called teeth. People have died by being bitten by dachshunds and pomeranians. All dogs can (and some do) bite humans. Basically, the bigger the dog, the bigger the potential damage. Well bred American Pit Bull Terriers really should not be a lot bigger than 28 to 30 kg, so they are just medium sized dogs. Ask Cordy (long term DOL member) what it is like to be bitten by a really big dog (in her case a Great Dane). So, should Australia ban Great Danes because an individual GD nearly killed Cordy? Likewise, should Australia ban GSD's or American Pit Bull Terriers on mass because a couple of individual dogs have proven to be dangerous? The problem faced by the American Pit Bull Terrier is that it is an easily trained and intelligent dog breed. Everyone accepts how good the Labrador is as a seeing eye guide dog, but the first seeing eye dog in Canada was an American Pit Bull Terrier and it did a fine job. Likewise, American Pit Bull Terriers have been the best ever 'Search and Rescue' dogs in the US of A. Oh, yes and statistically the best ever drug detection dog in the US of A is an American Pit Bull Terrier. These dogs are versatile; that is both their best attribute and their worst. Any dog trainer with half a brain can train an APBT to do whatever they want it to do. If these meat heads train the APBT to be an attack dog, is that a probem with the breed, or a problem with the meat head? Cheers, ricey

Yes, but even at the height of dog fighting in the late 19th and early 20th century in the United States, it was estimated that around 1% or less of American Pit Bull Terriers were actively matched and fought in the pits. So, the overwhelming majority were never used as fighting dogs, but this is what they are remembered for. Similarly, a tiny percentage of Dobermanns were used as concentration camp guard dogs but this is what they are remembered for. The thing is, you can train any intelligent dog to do what the human wants it to do. Is this a problem with the dog, or a problem with the human? I'd make a strong case for the problem with any problem dog being actually a problem with the human involved. However, going back to the questions posted by the original poster (Gabba; what is a pit bull terrier, and what are they actually banning?), here's my response: A pit bull terrier should really mean an American Pit Bull Terrier as the APBT was the most successful breed of dog in pit fights. However, as Big D points out there was a variety of different dog breeds and mongrels used as fighting dogs in the dog pits. In the US of A, the term 'pit bull' can mean any of these breeds- APBT, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Bull Terrier, Boston Terrier (I kid you not!), Miniature Bull Terrier (again, no kidding!) or any dog with a big head and a solid build. Even the asthmatic and physically challenged "British Bull Dog" can be considered a 'pit bull type' dog in the US. So, the definition of what constitutes a 'pit bull' in the US is both broad and vague. Here in Australia, the story is similar but has some major differences. The American Staffordshire Terrier which is directly and solely descended from pure bred American Pit Bull Terriers (no other breed has ever contributed to the AST's gene pool) is not considered to be a pit bull legally. So, the AST has been bred solely from APBTs but somehow it is not an APBT? How can that be? All AST's are APBT's (but not all APBT's are AST's). The AST is a sub-set of the APBT. As to the question 'what are they banning?;, well, that depends on what state or territory you live in, and whether the ranger you are dealing with is a nice person or a nazi gestapo sh*t bag. In those states that allow council rangers to determine the breed of your dog just by looking at it (i.e. Queensland, Victoria, & New South Wales) you are stuffed if the ranger does not like you or your dog. In more enlightened territories such as the ACT or the NT you won't have these problems and can happily own American Pit Bull Terriers. Even here in WA, you are safe because council rangers do not have the power to determine the breed of your dog. Only the Chief Veterinary Officer of WA has that power, and he has stated categorically that he will never exercise that power. So you could register your great dane as a chinese crested here in WA and no one will be legally allowed to dispute that. Here in WA you could safely and legally register your red nose red boy APBT as a lab/staffy cross and you'd be safe. I do not want dangerous dogs in my neighbourhood and I don't want anyone to think that I am condoning ownership of dangerous dogs. I do not think that the overwhelming majority of American Pit Bull Terriers are dangerous dogs. A few individual APBT's are dangerous and should be put down. The same can be said of a few Labs and a few kelpies or any other dog breed. Continuing to define dangerous dogs by their breed will not actually do anything to reduce the problems caused by individual dogs that actually are dangerous. I have three dogs; a shih tsu/maltese/silky cross, a cream kelpie/corgi/lab/dingo/ferret cross (I'm not kidding; I'll post a photo and you'll be able to see all that in her), and Hobbes, my 12 year old gentleman giant of an American Pit Bull Terrier. Hobbes the pit bull is the only one of my dogs that I'll let my 7 year old old grandson play with. The APBT was once referred to as the 'nanny dog'; the dog that it was safe to let your children play with. Me, I am not about to let any child play unsupervised with any of my dogs (you never know what the nasty little child will do to your dog), but at least I am relatively certain that Hobbes won't bite your little darling if they poke him in the eye. Really, the APBT is the most versatile and best of dogs. The APBT has excelled at search and rescue, drug detection, service, agility, weight pull, obediance and has an exemplary record for its temperament. It is sad that this champion breed has been vilified and denigrated by the tabloid press. It does not deserve this; all the APBT has done is exactly what its sometimes questionable owners have asked it to do. Cheers, ricey

Hi Sticky, Thanks for posting this; this is an interesting but flawed study. The authors themselves state "Still, our study has several major limitations." They go on to detail the flaws and limitations in their study but then say "Despite the study limitations listed, trends in population-level outcomes studied collectively suggest that BSL in Manitoba may have decreased DBIH (Dog Bite Injury Hospitalisations)in people, especially in those younger than 20 years." Talk about an each way bet LOL! They spent a lot of time and money investigating whether BSL in various Canadian constituencies actually reduced dog bites, and all they could come with is "possibly it did but we don't know one way or the other." "However, we are still prepared to say that BSL is helpful even though our results neither support BSL nor disprove its usefulness." So this direct quote from this flawed study says that BSL doesn't work. But the next paragraph states: This strikes me as "how to bullshit with statistics". "temporal and geographical variations introduced to a generalised estimating equation" LOL! I studied statistics at university level and I understand how statistics can be massaged to "prove" anything you want to prove. I'd be ashamed to have my name as an author of an article like this. I note that this is an 'Advance online publication' and this sort of article has not been formally published yet Any journo or pollie with an axe to grind about dangerous dog breeds could latch onto an article like this and use it to support their nasty little anti dog vendetta. But the article proves nothing and says nothing. Regards, ricey

Irial; little dog. Made me cry. ricey

Get your vet to excise this lump, and then get the lump checked out pathology-wise. Stop worrying about something you don't have a clue about. It might be benign, and it might be malignant. Who knows? Not you nor me until the path results come back. ricey

Thanks poodlefan, I am glad that my "hi-jacking" (an accusation by others, not by you ) has added to the information available in this thread. Me, I only want dog owners to be aware that colloidal silver could kill their dog if they make their dog eat it. Spread it topically on burns and wounds and all is good. Cheers, ricey

Nothing that you say there that I'd disagree with Cheers, ricey