SkySoaringMagpie

Buzz, our smooth irish tri, is not, and it's not clear what is going on yet. Today is his second day at the vet. It came on over 48 hours (lost interest in food, pale gums, orange urine, mildly depressed but still active). His PCV is dropping (it's 21 at the moment), and they don't think it's snake bite as it's been too slow in manifesting. They are trying to work out if it's a toxin, infection, injury or an auto immune reaction. I am hoping it is not the last one. They are testing for different toxin indicators as far as they can - they've ruled out rat poison. I honestly cannot ID any way that he would have been exposed to something - we don't bait pests, he hasn't been anywhere near our boundary fences, it's just a mystery at the moment. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: That's a great link.

Can anyone tell me what a normal pack cell volume is for a dog or where I might find out? Vet is in procedures at the moment so I can't ask her. Some days I swear I did something terrible in a past life....

I am so sorry to hear this - I know today I'll be thinking of everyone who had a part in Ziggy's rescue and rehoming, especially Longclaw & family, and Norskgra. You gave him a fine end to his days, I hope you find comfort in those memories of him.

I live in a house with 4 Salukis and 2 Afghan Hounds. I have never laboured under the delusion that my dogs live to please me. It's basically a dance of mutual self-respect. I don't allow them to muck around with my boundaries, and I don't inflict bullshit Cesar Millan style dominance stuff on them. Ultimately I (and my OH) are the leaders, but being a leader takes some finesse.

It was carefully explained to me what was wrong and I've forgotten!!

The "tire them out to keep them well behaved" piece of advice is really REALLY pervasive, and is often given to people who have large dogs in that loopy adolescent phase of their lives. There are so many "authorities" too that it takes your average dog owner quite a while to sort out the bs from the useful stuff. Still, if a dog is limping I guess there are two possible scenarios. Dog is injured or has some other problem and owners are clueless, or dog has a condition that is already being managed. I admit it's usually the former. I try not to be offended when people ask about our dogs, even if the question or comment is clueless (usually it's "your dog is really skinny"). It at least demonstrates some concern. In the scenarios described by dog geek in the past I have tried to strike up some rapport and then ask about it, usually something direct but delivered politely and in a non-accusatory way such as "have you had that back leg looked at?". I try not to diagnose, as Nekhbet says it's possible it's been over exercised but it's also possible it has any number of other conditions. Also, if you are used to looking at dogs, things that would not be obvious to an average dog owner really stick out. People often honestly just don't see skipping and favouring. Earlier in my show career one of my young dogs was kicking in one of his back legs as he gaited. An experienced terrier man spotted it, and said "get that dog to a chiro". As soon as the chiro had seen him he was right as rain. I don't know how long it would have taken newbie me to spot it tho', especially as I was the one holding the lead. Without it being pointed out I suspect it would have taken some time. Edited to fix spelling.

For what it's worth, we used to use preventive topical flea prevention - think it was Frontline? We stopped, what made us think about it was that our Afghan HATED it being applied. And the fact that the packet said not to get it on yourself made me think twice. We have not had any problems since with fleas, if we do get a problem I will deal with it then. With Heartworm, I am not going to give the yearly injection to my new pup but will stick with oral treatment during summer. This thread has been really useful food for thought. Thanks Erny.

If she ran outside when she was scolded then she is not avenging anything. I would lay off the corrections and the scolding, it's possible you're triggering submissive peeing. That's not about avenging, that's about trying to appease you in doggie social language. Don't forget that things that make perfect sense in dog social interaction are things that humans find disgusting (butt sniffing, peeing on valued objects, etc). I can produce the "I've done something wrong" look on my dog's faces even if they've been perfectly innocent. Try and think about this as a puzzle to be solved, not a misdemeanor to be punished. When was the last time you praised her for appropriate elimination? With the little I have to go on here I'm wondering if she's learned not to pee in front of you (which is different to learning to pee outside).

This has been our experience too. Lots of taking forever to get in the door because you keep having to shut the bloody thing again!! Eventually if you outstubborn the dog, you get compliance. Each time you let them get away with it, the job of overcoming it becomes that much longer more difficult. L&F, instead of praise when she has four on the floor have you tried slow firm stroking pats without saying anything? Contact that slows her down if that makes sense. If you're strong enough, you can also make sure you have a hand over their withers which prevents them jumping as well. Another thing which may or may not work is to put it on a cue. Depends on your personal preferences but it can be good to control something that is so reinforcing to them so that you can use it as a reward and let them have access to it legitimately (ie, politely, under your control and as a reward for good behaviour). I have jumping up on a cue because I like it if it's the right time and place plus I'm not particularly delicate and my dogs don't top 25 kilos. If you don't want jumping up at all you could teach him a touch game instead or use frisbee games as a reward.

Our chiro vet does offer pain relief, xrays and the full range of traditional veterinary treatment and diagnosis. The adjustments help make sure that the bad elbow is the only thing our dog has to worry about, if that makes sense. In my experience, often dogs with a structural problem can wind up with secondary issues as a result of compensating for the original problem. Providing there is an accurate diagnosis - which the vet should be able to provide - I think good chiro is an important supplement for structurally unsound dogs. Bad chiro of course, can make it worse...

I suggested a veterinary chiropractor rather than a muscle man for a reason.

I agree with Cosmolo. If you are going to keep her and not send her back, I would actually hold off on classes until you can stabilise her health - if it's a choice between paying for classes and paying for the xray, I'd pay for the xray. You can still NILIF at home for things that are not health related. I would also ask in the health forum for people in your state who can recommend a good chiropractic vet. We have a dog with elbow issues and the chiro combined with the vet treatment makes a huge difference to his well being and demeanor - there is definitely hope for your girl. Finally, I would discuss this with the breeder. What I have also done in the past is ask the vet if they are prepared to speak direct to the breeder, and then offer the vet's number to the breeder in case they wish to ask the vet questions. Ultimately if you paid a lot of money for her and it turns out she has a structural problem, the breeder should be prepared to refund at least a proportion of the money you paid for her. I'm sorry you're going through this, it can be very disappointing when you try and do the right thing and end up with a dog with issues. Take care of yourself and your girl. If you do go to obedience make sure the instructor knows about her health issues.

I have a new dog who is 7 months old. She came to me out of quarantine a couple of weeks ago, and while she had some good formative socialisation experiences in her country of origin, we had to start from scratch with stuff as basic as toilet training & a "sit" command. I have just treated her as I would treat any dog who needed to learn things. Yes she came to me with one or two habits to undo, jumping up particularly, but I've just put it on a cue and given her a cue for having four on the floor and she's picking it up fast. She coped very well with her first Level 1 dog class on the weekend. She's crated when I'm not there to supervise so teaching house manners hasn't been a major drama. I also took a month off, just as I would with a younger dog, to settle her in and bring her up to speed with our home.

I hope the vet check finds somthing. It's out of character for a goldie with good, correct temperament but not all goldies have that. Locally a couple of goldies killed a BC which shocked me out of my complacency about them.

My first dog used to do that in obedience classes, as soon as she rolled on her back and gave me that "ha ha, you wish!" look I knew it was effectively over for the day. I have also had to deal with "the paw" issue. Here's what I've had success with, it may or may not work for your goldie. If your goldie is giving you a hard eye, rather than just being cheeky, you should get a pro in to help: - Catch her doing the right thing and reward it. - Google Nothing In Life Is Free. If she wants something, she has to do something for it. No freebies, ever, while the dog is challenging you. If it wants something and isn't going to offer something in return, it doesn't get what it wants. - I never get up and walk away if my dog attempts to challenge me for a place on the couch. These days it's only the top male who very occasionally tries it by putting his paws on my knees and staring at me. I do not allow him to continue to do it, I move my body (not hands!) into his space to get him to give up and I project "presence" if that makes sense. I also make a point of removing any dog if it has sat down in either my spot or my OH's spot and I wish to sit down. - A slip lead is your friend. If the dog doesn't want to move on a cue, you put a slip lead around its neck and walk. Don't check or reef with it, just walk. It has to follow. If you have good upright confident posture, it's amazing how many dogs will comply. - Keep training sessions extremely short ETA: I knew I had it sorted when she of the "rolling on her back" would automatically get up when she saw me moving towards a space she knew was "mine". Good luck, it can be fixed!

K9: I think the key her is the "a", one of. How many dogs did he try this with & fail? how many dogs would he fail with vs succeed with. I think that is a rather unsporting thing to say. I'm not going to make the person a football in this discussion, I'll only observe that all his dogs that I have met over the years have been very well behaved and he is an obedience judge. I have noticed you are quick to highlight real or imagined limitations of those who don't hold your views or use your methodologies: asking me if I don't trust myself elsewhere in the thread for example, and setting little tests using your own criteria to assess the answers, etc. At the same time you claim a strong success record for yourself. That looks like sales pitch, not discussion in good faith. I'm not competition for you, in fact, as a volunteer obedience instructor I'm a potential referrer for dogs that have issues beyond those that can be managed in a standard class. Business must be good if you can afford to alienate us by talking down to us.

Only because we have a house full of Afghans and Salukis and I'm trying to make it clear where my experience lies. I have never trained a Wolfhound, so I will withdraw from discussing Sighthounds as a group. Thanks for picking me up on it As to the Cocker comparison, I phrased it "I'm guessing" rather than delivering it as a statement of fact. I was exploring an idea based on how people focussed most Cockers I've met have been. If Cocker people tell me that sinbinning them doesn't bother them at all, I'd drop the idea like it's hot!

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

I agree with you. However, the other side of it is that I also see people softening the idea that they are deliverers of things their dogs don't like. The way some people talk about haltis and ecollars you'd think they deliver a massage. I'm not saying there is never ever any cause to use one, I am saying let's be honest that it's not pleasant for the dog and if there is a way to do it on a flat collar, let's try that first. No. Something can be reinforcing without being about obvious enjoyment. A lot of people do it because it calms their nerves and/or gives them the illusion that they are in control. Or it gives them a way to relieve frustration and anger, which is also reinforcing. Like people who reef dogs when they're not complying - no matter what kind of collar they are on or what kind of class they are in. And like the guy I saw who slapped his Doberman on the face when the judge didn't give it Challenge. The bitch had been mucking up in the class judging line up, but by the Challenge line up she was behaving. The slap could only have been about relieving his frustration, because what it achieved in dog training terms was to tell her not to stand still after all. Another example - I saw someone repeatedly checking a dog ringside at a show recently. It didn't understand that she wanted it to stand, and it kept sitting which I assume was it's default behaviour to offer. She kept checking it, it kept sitting and getting more and more distressed. Eventually I had to turn and walk away rather than keep watching. My take on it that it was in front of people, and in a nervous pre-ring situation. In that situation many handlers are more likely to keep reinforcing their ego than stop and think "right, this isn't working, let's try something else". I know because I've kept pushing when it would have been obvious to an observer that I was being unfair, and I've kicked myself hard afterwards. In the example I mention checking the dog was not achieving anything in terms of desired results, so it must have been achieving something for the handler otherwise why would they keep doing it? That's what I'm talking about, and if I can make one person stop and think before doing that kind of thing I'll be happy - I think that's the point I'm trying to make.

Life is full of physically and mentally unpleasant experiences. If I am going to add one to my dog's life, even if I am adding it to take it away, I am going to think carefully about it and there needs to be an appropriate benefit attached for the dog/s. Certain training methods work because they have a component that is unpleasant to the dog - whether it's setting up a negative reinforcement, or it's an aversive, or a correction or a time out. All I have suggested is that we acknowledge it when we do something that is unpleasant to the dog. Perhaps it's just me and my martial arts woo woo, but the reason I bang on about this is because if we deliver an unpleasant experience to another sentient being we have to take care for the effect on ourselves. Plenty of people are reinforced by delivering punishment and correction - just watch any show ring or obedience class (whether positive or not). That is not good for the dogs.

In both scenarios you are imposing something unpleasant on the dog, and the training methods work because the dog does not like it. The electric pulse does not appear from nowhere, you choose to impose it. As I do not use e-collars, I picked an example of something I do use to indicate I am not coming at it from a purely positive point of view. I was not suggesting that time outs are better or worse than anything else. They're different. I was suggesting that if we impose something unpleasant on our dogs, even with the view of taking that unpleasantness away when the dog does what we want, we are bringing discomfort and often pain into its life and into our relationship with the dog. In the case of e-collars, if people get it wrong it can be downright Orwellian. If you get it right, that's excellent, but it's not a love tap, that's why it works - and I think it's important to be clear about that.

Sin binning goes for 2 minutes at our place, I use the microwave clock to time it and I probably do it once every month or two on average but it's usually with one of our entire males when they have behaved very inappropriately so it tends to cluster around the girl's seasons. It's the hardest thing I do to them which is why I picked it as an example - as I said, I don't believe it's a good idea to kid oneself if something you are doing is unpleasant to the dog. I'm guessing a sin bin would be harder on a cocker spaniel than on a sighthound. Likewise a check chain can be harder on some breeds than others in my view.

The Clothier book is good, I nearly put it down tho' because of the bizarre introductory story. It gets better. I really like Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" because it does a good job of mythbusting. Both books examine the human mind as much as they do dogs, and the Clothier book particularly draws out themes about what working with dogs can show us about working with our fellow humans.