Jumabaar

Troy is is possible to add The Rally-O titles as well which will start up in 2012 ? Flyball isn't in their either

I can now officially join this thread (as of about two hours ago). Just need to let the fur grow back and send off to have Abby registered as a Neuter!

How are you finding that they are different? Well not having a spare hour or so my answer will be abbreviated and generalised (LOL). The old saying 'ask a border collie to jump and he will say 'how high?' Ask a kelpie to jump and he will say 'why?' is very true ! The kelpies have every bit as much athleticism and drive as the BC but are much more 'show me the money' dogs. This might make it sound as if the BC is easier to train, but not always so, because I want the reinforcement to come from me rather than the agility equipment ....... so need to make sure I don't fall into that trap where I don't work as hard to be the one with the rewards. (Sorry, badly explained but hopefully you know what I mean) The BC constantly looks to me for direction, whereas the kelpies think they know more than I do (which is probably right in many cases) and like to be a lot more independent when working. I find the kelpies more mentally draining before I go into the ring to make sure they are in the Goldilocks state of arousal (just right !) whereas I dont have to do as much work in that respect with the BC - she is ready to go 24/7. The kelpies are a lot more forgiving of my handling errors than she is - in fact she is so super responsive and fast that I only have to be out of postion by a fraction and it's all over. My Q rate with the kelpies is much higher, but having said that, the BC is still a 'baby' (just coming up to 2 and a half) and only has a few months trialling experience under her belt. We're not a team yet in the way that I am with the kelpies. I find my kelpies to be more 'thinking' dogs when it comes to shaping - it generally takes them longer to 'get' something but once they do it is a very strong behaviour, whereas the BC will offer things in a frenzy and if I am quick enough to capture the response I want then the behaviour comes quickly but often more by accident than anything else. Getting her to slow down and think is more of a challenge. If I graphed the time it took to teach a behaviour, it would show a steady incline for the kelpies, whereas for the BC it would be flat for a while and then all of a sudden there would be a massive spike- latent learning seems to be much more applicable to her. I have also found it much harder to change the way I do something (in regard to agility) with the kelpies, whereas the BC seems to be much more adaptable to trying something in a different way without falling back on old behaviours. The kelpies in particular seem to thrive on routine. These are only generalisations for my own dogs, not meant to be a tried and true list of differences between the 2 breeds, but what I have found so far. (And I love them all, even though I swore I would never have a BC ) Wow I think you have described them to a T!! I have found similar differences (when I have helped out training my all my friends BCs)

Depends who you ask. :p You'll also find a lot of pro-show Kelpie people who look down at the working line Kelpies because they don't have the 'correct conformation'. Like I said above, it really depends who you ask. It's pretty natural that a farmer would prefer the WKC/non-ANKC bred Kelpies. For a non-farmer or someone who doesn't want to show dogs, the difference doesn't really matter. Sorry but that is so wrong ... there are a lot of people (including many people on this board) who have WKC-registered i.e. working line Kelpies who live in the suburbs and are fine. I think any dog would go bonkers without proper stimulation - Kelpies just seem to have a particular bad name. All of the breeders I spoke with, working line and show, said Kelpies were totally fine in the suburbs as long as you didn't just dump them in a yard and expect them to entertain themselves. I agree with you KTB!!

And a few pics for good measure

Bluey doing flyball (he is a little slow because he hadnt done any full runs in over 6mths)

Little bubba Izzy who is only two weeks into her Training In Drive

I think this is also pretty much the case between all the trouble between ANKC and WKC kelpies. A few breeders decided they disliked each other, started spreading rumours and they managed to get cemented in stone.

Demi lives in the house because I simply don't trust her. She is a complete air head and has quite happily gone through the fence to steal plants from my next door neighbour to bring home . She is the type that would follow a butterfly just coz, not because she actually wants to escape she just doesn't see fences as boundaries. I don't think she minds, when I am home she choses to spend most of the day inside anyway.

now thats a slippery slope I like it!!

I think it would also depend on a breeders ability to pick which pup had the problem. But if it was occurring often, and impacted on the animals everyday welfare then I would stay away. If the dog could live a long fulfilling life as a pet if it did have the problem, and I had the space for another dog to do dog sports AND the problem was a one off type thing then I might risk it maybe

I wouldn't be giving these types of assurances over the internet. I wish you luck, it doesn't sound like an easy situation to be in. I hope you are able to find help at your club!

Uh-oh, should I be worried? It means your one of the smart ones!!

My package arrived and its HUUUUUUGE!! I am waiting for the rain to stop so I can go and get it from the car

There are also a few lines of ANKC that have been purpose breed for agility- so drive light and FAST! Have a look at the Callicoma website if you want to see dogs with titles!! I wouldn't assume that the lazy stocky kelpies are all ankc ;) considering my ANKC kelpies are lean mean flyball machines- and do the same times as their WKC counterparts!! The current 9mth old pup is working in food and tug drive atm and is a little pocket rocket! I think I have some video of her working with her owner that I can put up tonight. Her mum has flyball, obedience, championship, herding and endurance titles- and would have done agility had she not been silly enough to injure herself but rehab is going well (again). So I guess yes it really DOES just depend on lines and what you are looking for. They are a little different to working with your BC for agility- but a lot of fun so if you get a kelpie you won't regret it!!

I worked as a mobile groomer for a whole 6weeks so got a bit of a feel for what I want. I liked having the big side for the dogs to get into- however the number of dogs that stuck their head under the door as I tried to drop it was painful. Even trying to align the door was painful. I would have liked a second attachment point lower down in the tub so that the escapeeeeeeees had less options. as well as the attachment point on the back wall. I liked having the water move into the first tub as I used it and warm the water. I didn't like it when the lizard got into the float and broke it, and because it had a tiny door it was a pain to get in and have a look at it!! (lizard proof floats would also be amazing IMO) My heater worked quite quickly and the temp was adjustable so it was amazing. If at all possible having the levers at the top so someone who is balanced challenged can use hand operation instead of foot operation. I did like that I had a lever to open and close the drain. Not fussed about re-using the rinse water. I didn't do it then and I doubt I would do it now. Ummmmmmm Maybe look at having the pump set as low as possible so when you wash something like a chi you don't have to fill the tank up completely to get it to work.

I ordered them in my first bundle and am expecting it to arrive any day (was shipped aaaaaaaages ago)!!

Wow thats unusual. Not what most old breeders would do with a dog that can't work.

Had you researched his lines? How knowledgable was the breeder?

Manic indicates high energy without appropriate release. As I said- kelpies that are referred to as manic are poorly bred or poorly trained I have exceptionally high drive ANKC registered kelpies because it has been fostered and bred for and the latest little monster has never been called manic because she never looks manic, but can jump over a meter in the air in food drive. They will work for as long as you want, once again because I chose lines with those characteristics. You could find the exact same characteristics in a WKC kelpie. I can also tell you were to buy a slug ANKC OR WKC Kelpie lol

I think you just need to stop talking to people and accept that each dog as an individual. There are low and high drive kelpies on each registry and individuals with good and poor instinct from both too. If you are looking for a particular trait then look at the parents and hope it comes out in the pups. Only very poorly bred (or trained in some cases) Kelpies are manic regardless of the register. White spots are allowed they are just undesirable. Most kelpies with excessive white start to make me wonder if there is any BC in their pedigree.

Yes I think it is a communication problem and I do think that the benefit of the doubt will help the situation immensely. I do think that the OP said they had discussed selling other pups to show homes with the SDO prior to the mating but I am happy to be corrected about that- and I think that would have been the appropriate time for the SDO to tell them that all remanding animals would have to be desexed, rather than at the time of the mating which is what prompted me to say that they had changed their tune. But we don't have both sides of the story so the best I can do is wish Milly has a happy healthy litter.

I don't understand this attitude, in which other sport/hobby does someone starting out expect to beat more experienced participants? It would be like me starting out swimming and expect to beat Thorpie, or me start to play rugby and go straight into the All Blacks starting line up. I know when I first started showing I wasn't expecting to take out BOB at every show I was happy to get around the ring with my dog looking reasonable. But maybe that's just me and other people start something and expect to win big first out. But in normal sports you can improve. In showing you can't improve past a certain point (i.e. you can improve presentation but you can't improve structure). And not everyone has the opportunity to own multiple dogs or to buy in new ones. So if you never even win a class why would you continue to come back year in year out? There is no room for improvement like there is in swimming....

I will let you take care of my next litter then. I can tell you I have only ever had long hard grinds..... I feel sorry for you Mille. I understand what Steve is saying but if the SDO wanted all this they should have just been upfront with you in the first place- which I think is what has upset you. Sometimes people can put on a show for a long time to get what they want and when they have leverage you see them for what they truly are. I hope you can come to some arrangement.

If you feed the same amount of food in one meal, that you are currently feeding in two meals, your dog will maintian weight better. How do you come to that conclusion?? Like amypie I couldn't physically allow my dogs to eat their daily requirements for the work they do in one sitting. That might be so, but if that is the case, then they are also designed to then go & sleep under a tree for days until they get hungry & need to go & find another meal. Not exactly what we expect of our modern dogs. To me, my dogs are my family, & I wouldn't expect my family to miss out on a days food every so often, so why should my dogs. Maybe us humans should go back to prehistoric times as well & eat like cavemen did ;) But dogs are not strict carnivores ;) so they would have had snacks on other foods. My dogs all go out and graze and love to graze in new environments so I might feed them two meals but they probably add in an extra one themselves of interesting things they find to snack on.