Steve

I wouldn't say it was a common worry until such time that it happens because most of us wouldn't let the dog go if we thought there was a chance it wouldn't work out etc and it doesn' happen so often - 5 times in 40 years and usually no many wouldnt recommend a rescue if they could avoid it as the risk factor of being beaten up over it and being accused of being unethical and not caring about their dogs is hovering. Its my experience that it doesnt stop some now and then deciding they don't want the dog no matter how much help, education, advice or counselling you do. All of us provide massive amounts of paperwork and advice and when someone makes up their mind the dog is going it usually goes and if they feel guilty they usually try to avoid the breeder. Let me be clear about this Im not saying breeders necessarily can or should do any more in this regard than they do I'm saying the expectation and the punishment and attacks on them from animal welfare groups and animal rights,their peers and some of the public has made breeders think they need to take back dogs to protect their reputation and image if it happens when they shouldn't. Im saying someone can be completely ethical if they dont take back dogs .its rare for people to ask if a breeder will take back a dog when they are looking to buy a puppy and if someone did ask me this they would have to explain a lot before they would take home my puppy and probably wouldnt get one - its the expectation and pressure from within the dog world and the desire to be seen to be doing the right thing even when they cant that creates a problem and may lead to a breeder taking in both their own and other rescue dogs of their breed when the best isnt being done by the dogs.

Thanks Steve for reminding me of the house of horror while i'm eating my breakfast And a perfect example of why some breeders shouldn't even consider taking their own dogs back! It was the house of hell alright Jay still says when she thinks of it she can still smell it. Those poor bloody dogs but she looked ethical until we got inside!

Bit slow this has been the case for about 20 years now - Its how hundreds a month go out via transpet to a pet shop in Hawaii, its why pet shop people are telling us that most of their puppies come from registered breeders , its why Dogs NSW backed PIAA against Clover Moore's bill. Wow! I didn't know that. No wonder it is so hard for breeders doing the right thing! I'm beginning to think I'd prefer to buy from an "unregistered" ethical breeder who health tests and does the right thing by the dogs. Do you know if this applies to all the states Steve? It doesn't say that in all states and I think from memory there is still at least one state where they say you cant but its already been tested at law and they cant stop you anyway . its not going to help you much going to an unregistered breeder who tells you what they do as their ethics - same problem .Human nature makes people want to do small things or sometimes big things which they think no one will know about.If you make a promise to your Mum that you wont piddle in the shower and you do - how will she know? But if she finds out you are doing it she will hold you accountable so there are two things which may make you do as you are told one is integrity - you said you wouldn't so you don't the other is fear of being found out but if you have no integrity,no real love for the animals and no one is holding you accountable you can agree to anything and then do as you like whether you are registered or not.

Until you are there until it happens you can preach what you think people should do and be adamant about what you would do but lets look at a breeder who lives in a position where they are limited by the numbers of dogs they can have on their property or a breeder who has had a disaster which is making it difficult for them to cope with whats on their plate .Its one thing to ask a breeder to be take a dog back 6 months after it goes home but seriously should a breeder always have one or two spaces available with enough money in the bank to cover expenses for 15 years in case it happens? Is it really O.K. to put it in a kennel and leave it there because you dont have enough time or resources to do the right thing by it. Is it really O.K. to allow it to negatively impact on your whole existence and the animals you have just to look to the outside world that you are what their definition of ethical is? Shit happens all the time and life for everyone including for breeders doesnt always pan out the way you think it will today and Ive seen what happens when someone takes em back when they shouldn't. People who have a large breed and already on the limit for numbers they are able to keep via local law who have had to move from where they lived due to a death in the family rotate dogs and only let them outside two at a time so the neighbours cant see how many they have ,where dog shit is up the walls and you stick to the floor ,where we have had to pay extra money to people to help us drag out 7 dead dog bodies from the spare bedroom. Sure some of this is mental illness and hoarding but often it sometimes starts or is exasperated because of the pressure that's on to be seen to be ethical when whats best for the dogs would have been to say id love to help but right now I cant! the expectation is too high and the punishment you serve out when someone says they cant do what is expected by branding them unethical is unjust. By the way the MDBA offers support for breeders and rescue members who have a dog that is in trouble which they cant take back themselves because we know sometimes there needs to be an alternative and some help which you dont get beaten up over even if you think there shouldn't be.

Bit slow this has been the case for about 20 years now - Its how hundreds a month go out via transpet to a pet shop in Hawaii, its why pet shop people are telling us that most of their puppies come from registered breeders , its why Dogs NSW backed PIAA against Clover Moore's bill.

And the fact that you and many others need to judge without knowing the breeder or the reasons and bang a drum about bad breeders who advertise here or there or somehow that someone might not approve of with the tags of being unethical so you cant judge them and they dont want to be treated and seen this way will consider bumping their puppies off or selling them without papers to a pet shop or dealer or dump them - anything to remain anon and be seen to be ethical though more likely and more common is they just simply stop breeding because its not worth the crap.

That sounds pretty good to me.

Well then if this is something which has bought the breeder's ethics into question perhaps we can also begin to see why they might sell them off to a pet shop, or a dealer or pop them in a bucket . If they aren't selling at the usual price is there really anything wrong with a breeder advertising they want them sold asap and reducing the price? They are still being responsible for them , they are still checking out homes. There isnt anything in the code of ethics to say you cant reduce your price if the pups arent in as higher demand as you thought they were. I don't think you should sell a living animal like you do a car. WAS $1500 NOW $1200 must go before christmas. Why must it go before christmas? Surely it must go to the right home and surely if you do reduce the price you do it off your own back you don't need to make a big song and dance about it like you're at some action. I truly find that disturbing. These are living creatures, not assets sold off to the lowest bidder by christmas time. Rubbish. Just because someone reduces the price doesn't mean they are not doing everything else they need to and there are a multitude of reasons why someone would need to have them sold by a certain time frame. No one is bidding on them - that would be unethical.

I would expect that they will say they will take a dog back and that if they can't immediately take the dog, that they have a plan in place. You can come up with as many scenarios as you like, Steve, but there's nothing like a bit of planning. And ETA: why is it just an 'I don't want the dog anymore' scenario? There are plenty of legitimate reasons for needing to rehome. Definitely just as there are many legitimate reasons why a breeder may not be able to or should not take the dog back when its needed by the buyer. Come on Sheridan you're a smart kid you know you cant plan for everything. Pacers helped several breeders who were in way over their heads who needed to find homes for their own dogs because they couldn't have anticipated where they are at now - how could you ask them to do what you expect of them when they are not functioning as they were when they bred the dogs and when taking on the responsibility is not in the best interests of the dogs or the people. If we are to be honest we will say we will bring them home if we can and that we will help if we can but thats not likely to happen because that would mean being seen to be unethical. When they do turn up we will put everything at risk to be seen to do what some believe is the right thing because if we dont we will be seen to be unethical

Well then if this is something which has bought the breeder's ethics into question perhaps we can also begin to see why they might sell them off to a pet shop, or a dealer or pop them in a bucket . If they aren't selling at the usual price is there really anything wrong with a breeder advertising they want them sold asap and reducing the price? They are still being responsible for them , they are still checking out homes. There isnt anything in the code of ethics to say you cant reduce your price if the pups arent in as higher demand as you thought they were.

And as a breeder who is trying to find the best homes for their puppies where no matter what the person taking it will love it and look after it until it dies why would we want our puppies to go to someone who wants to know if we will take it back if they dont want it anymore? Surely from the other side of the fence the breeder might see this as a potential symptom of the dog becoming homeless and if they are only interested in finding forever home they are being remiss by allowing the pup to go home with someone who can envisage in the future that they dont want it any more.? Ethics for finding only the best forever homes or ethics for saying they will take it back - hard to win.

You mean if they don't say they will take the dog back when you are shopping you don't stay around but if they are honest they would answer they will take the dog back if they can because no one can anticipate what situation they may be in tomorrow let alone next year or so. Would you prefer someone to be honest with you or tell you what you want to hear to make a sale? Would you prefer someone to take the dog back to look after their reputation and then turn up next month on TT because they have too many dogs which they haven't been able to cope with?

Breeders and breeders that rescue should have without a doubt a quarantine area. So should be able to take back or take in a dog at anytime. Yes? But that pre-supposes that breeders will have kennels so they can provide a quarantine area, does it not? A quarantine area doesnt pre-suppose anything....I dont have kennels but I do have a quarantine area....albeit a cubby within a fenced run. :) But that is a kennel, is it not? Quarantine.... A state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals are placed.....isolation. I give up :) You miss the point - sometimes things change, sometimes things happen sometimes the cubby house is all full sometimes the breed is a bigger management issue ,sometimes you have run out of money to be able to feed it and vet it ,sometimes its either the rescue dog or your spouse,sometimes you are not well and you have enough on your plate . The point is ideally we would all take the dog back ,ideally we would all take responsibility but sometimes we shouldn't and we should respect each other enough to accept that each of us will make the best decisions we can at the time rather than beating the hell out of someone because they cant .

You obviously dont live in victoria...why cant it be a national requirement to do the written open book exam? Well its not much more difficult in Victoria either. You dont need to own a dog let alone a purebred dog to get in and you can breed cross bred and unregistered purebreds and stay in without a problem - open book exam is going to tell them a lot about you.

Whats even more sad is that when the goons hear that someone may be in trouble instead of doing what would be best for the dogs and knocking on the front door and offering some help they keep it a secret and sneak around waiting to get some horrendous evidence to go after sensationalism and donations.

Well I can see where you are coming from but it seems to me that you want a breeder to say they will take back their dogs to prove they are careful in homing them,and they are more on top of genetic health issues ? What about if by doing so they compromise the health and well being of the dog they are bringing back in or the well being of the dogs they have at their home? Why is it so difficult to simply assume a breeder loves their dogs and the puppies they breed enough to want to find the best homes they can and do what ever they can to be on top of the genetics? Why do they need to prove this by saying they will take their dogs back no matter what when no one can promise this and some will promise this to give you proof knowing that they will never do it? Wouldn't you prefer to take away the pressure for people to have to say what you want to hear to prove they are ethical and simply hear the truth ? That is no one can guarantee they can take back a dog years into the future because they dont know where they will be or their dogs will be after today.

Yes people do need to stand up and say you are asking too much but we also have to stop the rot and look for breeders who have integrity and who will do the right thing and whats best BY THEIR DOGS AND THE DOGS THEY BREED AND THEIR PUPPY BUYERS even when no one is watching.

So what if they advertise them when they are young but don't let them go home until they are older? Far as I know you cant get your ad to go up on gumtree unless you say they are at least 8 weeks old anyway. Its pretty bloody easy to lie about the DOB anyway.

ITs harder to buy a dog these days than it used to be definitely harder to buy a well bred registered purebred anyway . Some people dont want to look too hard or jump through hoops and there will always be a demand for them. Shut down one supply and the rest prosper . Licence breeders and make it hard for the one doing it right and we will always have more who go underground and do this kind of stuff.

Some will say that a breeder is ethical if they only ever breed a litter when they have orders for puppies .This of course means they cant dare be seen to openly advertise or ask for help if they have a couple of pups which they need a bit of nudge to let people know they have some available. I have been witness to deals breeders made with a dealer to take away the pups they didnt want to keep themselves to be sold via a pet shop chain - why ? they told me it was because its too hard to have to comply with all of the things expected of them to sell the pup - one said she was frightened of strangers coming to her home .They both said that if they advertised the pup their fellow breeders and loonies would judge them as unethical and they didnt want to drown them at 8 weeks which is when they made a decision on which one to keep. The dealer tells me this is common in the area which they operate in. Im not even going to get near what I think of this personally but its about what some breeders will do when no one is watching to appear to be ethical and unless like me you witnessed it - how would you know? I reported that and nothing was done - no evidence the puppies ever existed. By the way I didnt say that these people were registered it could have been any breeder - my point is how much does this expectation of what is ethical impact on the results and how some breeders play to look ethical?

lets just take a look at what has become the norm for people who frequent this forum. A breeder is perceived by some to be more ethical if they rescue but how ethical are they if they rescue and the dogs they own have a reduced quality of life ? How ethical are they if they bring in dogs in order to "look " like they are more ethical in this regard but its not something that's good for the dogs they take in ? We reward this behaviour and speak of how great a breeder is because they do this but how much pressure does that put on a person who really shouldn't be even considering this because it doesn't suit them or their dogs ? Should we judge someone less "ethical" if they choose to do what they believe is best over what they believe will score them points to those watching? A breeder is perceived to be more ethical if they take back dogs way into the future that they have bred. So most breeders say they will take their dogs back and most believe that they will if ever they are in that position but what if when that day does come they have as many dogs as they can handle on their property and bringing that dog home will cause all of the dogs to be in a position they shouldn't be in. A breeder is judged to be ethical if they rescue others and take back their own until they are busted not coping with 4 dozen dogs . Is it more ethical to really want to help but admit you are in a position not to be able to help.

Got new furniture and the dog doesn't match the lounge suit any more - and that was one of my sisters.

Well if you think part of being ethical is to only breed purebred puppies and always register their pedigrees with one group who keeps records then you are not going to think someone who doesn't do that is ethical. I dont see that as part of being ethical past the point where registered breeders have agreed to do that via their code of conduct therefore if THEY dont do that and breach their code of ethics they are not being ethical. the assumption - hopefully is that all of these people have agreed to do this because they believe that it is part of doing what is best for the dogs and the breed. If someone decides that they don't feel that they need to breed a purebred or they feel that if they do breed a purebred that they dont in order to do what they feel is best for the dogs and they stick to that they are being ethical according to their standards and beliefs and their ethics. Each has a different goal, each has a different philosophy but as long as each is transparent about what they believe is ethical and they stick to that all the time - including when no one is watching - each is being ethical. I may not believe that one or both or either are on the right track and they match up with what my ethics each are being ethical according to their stated ethics. The term ethical has been chucked around now for years to describe registered ANKC breeders to a point where its gone stupid. Originally it meant a breeder who agreed to a particular code of ethics - but we are way past that. Even here in this thread its pretty clear to everyone reading that what a registered breeder has actually agreed to as their code of ethics isn't really counted much. General consensus on this forum is that if someone sells a puppy to a pet shop that means they are unethical - yet their code of ethics says they have agreed to only sell puppies to a PIAA pet shop. AAPDB allow their breeders to sell puppies to pet shops according to their code of ethics so when we send people to ethical breeders who is it that is ethical if ethical is different to everyone because it is no longer about what ethics they state they will follow .You can call someone unethical all you like because you dont think they should sell puppies to any pet shop but reality is the code they have agreed they will adhere to tells us that this is not unethical. So herein this thread we are told that some of you have your own set of STANDARDS and stated values you feel a breeder should have and adhere to which you look for when you go to look for a puppy but what are they ? How do I know what you expect or you are talking about if you dont articulate that .How do you know when you have really found someone who matches up with those expectations if they have no accountability for these things and they may be doing all manner of things when no one is watching.When they may be presenting themselves as what is becoming popular but not really covering what you think they are. Some who are saying if you want to know what their ethics are ring up the CC yet most have said the CC is way under what they want a breeder to have as their ethics.You cant go bellowing and claim one isnt ethical when they are within the code they have agreed to. Time for a new word.

short answer, you can't. I purchased a dog last year almost to the day. I did my research in the breed we were interested in. Found someone sort of local who bred these dogs. I visited with them. Met the parents. Saw how the dogs were kept. Went to visit the pups spoke endlessly with the "breeder" very helpful very nice people. Eventually paid our money and took our pup home. Expected papers to arrive in the post. Papers did not arrive. Breeder did not return calls / emails. Pup wasn't a pure bred. Pup had extensive health issues. Pup was heartbreakingly pts earlier this year. Very very few of us "pet" buyers can tell who is and who isn't doing the right thing. Or even who is who they say they are. Thats my point

Yes. I think that it's a very subjective thing, everyone will have different ideas of what THEY believe is ethical and will look for a breeder who matches this. I certainly don't have anything against registered breeders who don't do all the things I would like done, I just wouldn't get a puppy from them. or who appears to match this ?