Steve

I didnt read it as that implication as in order to accomplish that it would need to be completely isolated and not even have contact or be socialised with the animals its charged with caring for all of its life though I do know people who take a LGD home and drop in a paddock and only revisit it every few weeks where for its entire life it has very limited human interaction .Some farmers make a point of not socialising them at all with humans in fear that it may break the bond it will have for the species it is bonded to.

The post you agreed with. Yes I know and I still agree with it. If the dog is well bred and has a sound temperament no matter what happens to it pre 8 weeks it should still be able to behave as it is bred to behave. If this were not true LGD's would be much harder to cope with. No matter what I do , no matter what I do or dont socialise a LGD with it should still be able to go to a new home to a totally alien environment and job and cope without being a nervous wreck or fear biter. If this were not the case then we wouldnt be able to have them working with so many different species which most times they are not exposed to until they are over 8 weeks.Just as it should be able to become part of a mob of sheep, chickens,penguins or guinea pigs if it hasnt been socialised with them prior to 8 weeks it should also be able to become part of a human family with or without full on human socialisation. I suppose much depends as well on what you class as socialisation but this thread was specifically about human socialisation within an inside human environment with a LGD. edited to add I dont own horses but I can still send a pup home to a property with horses and it copes as if its been with them all its life - this doesnt happen because its been socilaised with horses but because of it's breeding.

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO. Id agree with that . me too. Me three Group thinking sheep. Denying a pack animal the opportunity to socialise is moronic and cruel. Who said anything about denying a pack animal socialisation with its pack? Up until its about 7 weeks old it needs to be socialised with its Mum and litter and after that it is better to have it interacting with humans or in the case of LGD with humans and especially the animals it will be guarding but if its well bred in my opinion whether it is judged by someone who has not bred LGD to be moronic and cruel or not if it doesn't get these things at that time it catches up without a problem. Its in the main about the breeding not necessarily what it is or is not exposed to before its 8 weeks old. My pups are all socialised with other dogs, the species they will go home to and humans but Im confident that if they weren't they would still be the dogs they are bred to be with little need for adjustment. You should be able to take any LGD regardless of its socialisation pre 8 weeks and put it into any environment and have it adjust without a problem.

Usually puppies are only vaccinated early with parvac which is a killed vaccine and its usually done if the mother is considered not immune or if there is increased risk of exposure due to Parvo on the property etc - this is a killed vaccine and does take about 10 days to give immunity but modern live vaccines live offer immunity within a couple of days. I would assume if the vet were in any way ethical they would consider this breeder's circumstances and advise the breeder on what is best. Vaccinating too early at 3 weeks isnt that much different to vaccinating at 6 weeks if the maternal antibodies are active. In puppy farms breeders often vaccinate their puppies at 3 weeks with killed vaccine as a precaution so does rescue who have taken in pregnant mums without knowing her immunity status. The vet is wrong - the provision for the sale of puppies in NSW is enforceable it is a law and not a guideline and the fact that they dont know that is a bit scary because people rely on their vets to advise them. As far as the pup having papers Id be willing to bet that these are not Dogs NSW registered pedigree papers because allowing a pup to go home at 6 weeks is also a breach of the code of conduct and its a basic that's pretty much in your face from day one of applying for a registered prefix.

You only need 1 count your due date from the mating.

That's bullshit. Lack of socialisation is the excuse given by breeders of especially guardian breeds for producing fear biters. A genetically stable dog of sound nerve doesn't need socialising. Dogs that react aggressively in non threatening passive environments are spooks. The one's who can't get over a bad experience and react from a learned behaviour are genetically weak in nerve strength. An unsocialsed dog will project it's true character unmasked by the effects of socialisation. There should be more breeders not socialising some of their breeding stock to be better informed of what they are actually producing in raw character and temperament IMHO. Id agree with that .

Tralee, We cant just have people who think they are doing the right thing doing what you are advocating .You are wise enough to understand this. This has been taken to the RSPCA - the people who have been charged with ensuring people are not committing acts of cruelty and whether you agree or not in Queensland putting a shock collar on any dog of any age is not considered to be cruel . You have no defense and worse you have nothing to go on but something someone is reporting based on assumptions on an internet forum. I think crating is cruel but that doesnt mean I can go into people's homes and just liberate their animals and take them home. I think tethering is cruel but again I cant just go into someone's yard and take the dog because I have made that decision. Some people think breeding is cruel some think I am cruel because I never walk my dogs off the property .I think they are cruel for yanking a dog by the neck around the block - who decides? do we save dogs which are made to stay outside or do we save dogs which are made to stay inside ,perhaps we should decide whether someone is being cruel and feeding the wrong food. Many feel using the collar is a preferable outcome to the pup being cruelly run over or injured or lost and like it or not in that state its their prerogative to make that decision and we cant have peopel deciding all over the place what they will be justified in when they steal a dog. The chances that this really is a 6 weeks old pup and that it is getting constantly zapped isnt that great anyway .

How would anyone know? But its unlikely he is from a registered breeder.

Obviously.

Well if its a Maremma throw the book away .Raising a LGD is not the same as other breeds.

According to my reading of the ANKC document as it appears on their website the numbers for Skyes born in 2011 were a grand total of 8 ,2010 saw 21 Skyes born, 2003 (12), 2005 -(5), 2001-(1), 2002 (14). etc 2010 -(21) Yep you're right clearly I cant read across the lines - and I dont even drink! Ill shut up now.

Yes I read the line wrong originally but around 70 were bred and registered Australia wide last year . The figures are on the ANKC website.

Thats not an Illyrian.

this one is 6 weeks old - going home to a pet home with kids so I recruited the grandkids . But can you imagine 13 of these in my lounge room ? The cleaner would go on strike

I have Maremma and they all come inside to whelp even the ones which have been working since they were 6 weeks old and which have never been house trained. Not once not ever have they gone to the toot in the house .They hang around like white rats blind and deaf until they begin to move around and at around three weeks when they are on the move and beginning to be interested in real food I move them onto my very large porch which adjoins my kitchen where I get to trip over them and sit with them at my feet and they hear the house noises etc. When they begin to do poos their mum isnt interested in cleaning up for about 4 or 5 days I have to watch where I walk and I find some little poos on the porch .By the time they are 6 weeks old they would never consider doing a poo or a wee on the porch and every day as they get older they go further and further out to go to the toot. In all puppies it is a natural instinct to move away from where they sleep to go to the toot and if your breeder has them in a shed as long as they can come and go training a LGD is easy in comparison to many breeds as their instinct is stronger to go out as this is how they work - by marking around the boundary of their yard. Its what stops predators from coming in.The older dogs will blow up before they go to the toot in the house or even if Ive had to have them in a pen for a few hours. I have no desire to have a dozen poo factories in my home and Any breeder who can live with a dozen large breed puppies [ poo factories] inside their home as they grow free range is better than me and if they are enclosed in a pen they cant get out to go to the toot and have no choice than to poo where they sleep which will become bad habit and over ride the natural instinct . Between 6 and 8 weeks they grow like weeds. I like to have deposits on mine when they are really young because I know then which ones will go to a pet home and which will go to working homes.Im not doing a pup any favours which will leave here at 8 weeks to go to Tassie and be in a paddock all its life if I keep them inside in air con or heating and send them off to an alien life with no creature comforts. Depending on where they are going and what they will be working with I expose them to that species .The ones which are going home as pets I bring into the house and give them more cuddles and replicate for the last week what they will be going home to. If they are going to be pets and live and sleep inside able to come and go at will then thats what they do before they go home just as if they will be working with sheep, goats or chickens by the time they go home they are with that species and get less human time. Some LGD breeders believe they should not be handled as this will interupt the bonding process when they go home .Its my experience that it really makes little difference. Part of their uniqueness is that they can come into any situation at 8 weeks whether they have seen it before or not , work out the rules ad whats normal in a heat beat and do their job. Just as they work out quickly in a paddock what is normal when they are with sheep they work out what is normal in their new homes and I have them on my porch more for my benefit than theirs. So as long as they can get out to go to the toot and at various times they are able to run , explore , play and know humans what is normal in your home will be sorted without a problem. Bit harder if they are older but at 8 weeks its a breeze .

Yes I have.I have 2 here at the moment - one has been here for 6 years but Ive never considered taking a dog without the owners approval and having all necessary paper work completed. Some years ago my Mum was taken to hospital and she had a little aussie terrier . Every day for the 2 weeks Mum was in hospital my sister went to her house and while she watered plants, collected things Mum needed etc and did the basics her kids played with the dog , then when she had finished doing what she needed to do she would sit for an hour or so each and every day and watch while the kids loved the dog. She could only do this in the middle of the day due to other committments but the dog was exercised, fed and watered and didnt miss a single day of this while Mum was away. Some nosy neighbour decided that the dog was a poor thing which was being left to die alone and lonely because Mum was in hospital. The RSPCA came out and all was well with them. But the next day when my sister went to do the usual the dog was missing . This dog was what Mum wanted to come home to and had been her life - you have no idea what stress not knowing where the dog was created. Long story short we spotted the dog in the neighbours house a week after Mum came home and had to call the police to get it back . The neighbour was at work through the day so didnt see what was happening and had no idea of why the decision had been made to keep the dog in her own yard rather than take it away. Still believed Mum was too old to have a dog and never once gave any hint of apology. In August a close family member died and she had 8 chooks. The first thing we did was organise for someone to go in twice a day and we were paying them to look after the chooks until we could take a breath and sort out what we wanted to do with them. Nup nosy neighbour called the RSPCA told them Jean had died and the chooks hadnt been cared for - another pain in the neck we had to deal with and put our grief aside to race to find new homes rather than take our time knowing we had organised care for the bloody chooks . In both these cases all the nosy neighbours had to do was to look to see the animals werent distressed and were being given fresh food and water and being cared for - both had contact numbers of family members they could have called first but instead they looked over the fence and decided to save them.

I thought it would be something like that. Pretty sad.

Oops sorry I read the wrong line about 70 were bred Australia wide last year but only 20 were bred 11 years ago.

Settle down. If the dog was being zapped it would not go where it is being zapped - even three week old puppies work out where in a whelping box is more comfortable and any pup would work out pretty quickly where it needs to be to be comfortable - in the state of queensland it isnt against the law . How do you even know the dog is 6 weeks old? There are several different brands and you cant say which one this is and at what min age it is recommended to be used - considering or advising someone to steal the dog based on the use of a shock collar and what has been assumed and written here is crazy when the pup isnt writhing around in pain or distress - wake up !

geez only 22 of these were bred by registered breeders 11 years ago and only 9 bred in 2011 - how often do they show up in rescue?

Sorry I missed this - Sending you all of my warmest wishes . wish I lived closer so I could came and have a cuppa with you.

You cant tell. if they are inside and only one person lives there and they are at work most days that could be less rather than more .It depends on the breeder and how they manage it all. Having them stuck in a crate inside isnt necessarily any better either.

Good Girl !

By the way what sort of system are we working under where dangerous dogs are able to be released from a pound to anyone ? Released to rescue only is nothing more than a cop out and an assumption they will make the assessments but there are no agreements that they will and no laws or regs requiring them to .If it wasnt PR getting these dogs out in most cases it could be the highest bidder or the first one to want the dog and pay the money .Before any dog is released to anyone or any group these assessments should be made rather than leave it up to the ethics of a bunch of cowboys or the luck for a new owner. Time for some reviews as to how these sort of dogs dont get back into the community.

the dogs are not DECLARED DANGEROUS before they are moved and taken out - though clearly they probably ARE dangerous but unless they have actually been officially declared or officially been proposed dangerous BEFORE it is rehomed its not against the law. being reported and being declared aren't the same thing .If there is any evidence that a dog has been officially declared dangerous before it was rehomed then that's breaking the law regardless of whether it was in this state or any other and its a police matter. This is a very emotional issue not just because we feel the impact which is coming down on individual dogs,and the people who take them but also against the long term impact on private rescue PR but spending energy on this isnt in my opinion the answer because unless they are breaking the law they have as much right as anyone else to decide what they will risk, compromise on and consider to be ethical. [sadly]