Steve

You can give Vit C in short doses problem arises when its given as we take it as a preventative over a long period .You need to see it as a medicine not as a supplement for dogs.

Its not just animal rights - we also need to look at the roles we play as well.

I had someone who called the MDBA for advice on breeding last Thursday - she had a blue Am Staff. I didn't try to talk her out of it and I didn't exaggerate the potential risks I told the truth ,the whole truth and nothing but the truth .I asked her questions about the dog and spoke with her without making any judgments on whether she should or should not breed the dog .I spoke with her about the laws and codes for breeding dogs in her state ,what information she needed about her bitch's parents and how she could be liable if something went wrong with her puppies .I asked her to determine what it was that she wanted to breed her bitch for - told her there was no right or wrong answer and appeared not to care whether she chose to breed or not but pointed out what she needed to do to ensure she didnt put her dog, her self or the puppies at risk etc. I then advised her where to go to learn a bit more and to be prepared for attacks from people who felt she was doing the wrong thing if she chose to go ahead. I also advised her on what she could do if she really still wanted to breed puppies an ensure she had all of the bases covered by purchasing a dog with the right papers and support. I wished her luck and told her if she needed any more advice she could email me. She rang back the next morning after she had booked her bitch in for desexing to say thank you and asked if it was O.K. if she came back in a few months to get some help in choosing a good dog to breed with and get it right. What makes people who have absolute passion for a breed who have been breeding dogs for decades stop breeding dogs? What makes me constantly feel stressed because I own fertile dogs even when I know Im doing it all right and ask if its all worth it? There in lies the answer . Tell them about the laws, development applications for the right to breed a puppy on your premises, the lost rights to privacy, the fear of litigation, the fear of no longer being able to enjoy simply living with their dog ,the over regulation, the politics and social media attacks from animal rights loonies and people who have no clue about breeding dogs. We are dropping like flies and there is good reason for that because few people in our society are treated as badly and in some circles breeding a puppy is viewed way up there with pedophilia.

Yep we have but Pacers is no longer operating after the 31st of December 2012 so Im glad someone is covering at least some of it. Why is that? Come to think of it I've heard nothing on the email or FB about it http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/243657-mdba-pacers/page__p__6025696__fromsearch__1#entry6025696

Yep we have but Pacers is no longer operating after the 31st of December 2012 so Im glad someone is covering at least some of it.

You would be amazed at how many start out simply thinking that saving a dog or two is going to be a cinch. But many learn by trial and error and get kicked around with out much good coming out of it for the dogs or the community. A lot of people have put in a hell of a lot of work to try to lift the image of rescue so the public are confident about taking in a second hand dog .When someone comes along with a great heart but not much of what it takes to start everyone has to weather through the negatives and that can impact on the entire industry of rescue dogs. It creates massive problems and increases stress levels and you see high burnout and frustration. Just when someone gets the hang of it they move on and all their knowledge and experience is lost. Its also stuff that you often do to run a rescue when no one else is watching so there is a temptation to cut corners. Why bother with the paperwork or the checks on the dogs and the potential homes,making good relationships with your foster carers bringing in just a dog or two over your legal numbers etc and then it all comes undone. I know the list I gave is long and seems a huge task but even if you only think you will rescue one or two dogs per year the best thing you can do for yourself and the dogs is to work through it before you start because it shows you where the risks are and helps you to eliminate them and work out whether its all going to be worth it or not. At the moment you are saying you want to educate people - well that's a great idea but who will you educate, where and how.What resources will you need to do that are there funding options such as grants etc available. Nothing is ever as simple as it sounds and for too long some rescue have operated by hit and miss and trial and error which will have a devastating impact on regulations and laws and its time that became a thing of the past. When you get caught up with ego and your own needs and politics and desires sometimes you loose sight of what is best for the dogs and that in my opinion is unforgivable. you cant know potential issues if you dont work through the basics FIRST.

You need to grate it and put it in between gauze and cover it with glad wrap - you can either hold it there if she will stay still for a few hours or wrap it around with vet wrap or similar .Change it ever few hours.

Glands under her neck and throat will tell you if its an infection too.

If the wound is open a potato poultice is good for most infections, bee stings, bug bites, swollen spider bites, abscesses etc, anything that needs to be drained but if its up her nose that's a more difficult ask and may not be able to use it .If you can though its instant relief and works pretty quickly sucks out the foreign body and also the poison.

Is there no way you can get her to a vet sooner - if its a grass seed abscess she will be in agony and needs treatment. Its a long time to wait and for her to suffer between now and Monday.

Thank you for the opportunity to be able to explain it!

Yep but an illegal puppy farm in Victoria is anyone who breeds a dog without the necessary paperwork and approvals and who doesnt fit exactly the requirements for breeding establishments This may be that they had a couple of entire dogs and a litter and didnt cover the paperwork,didnt have their dogs registered or have the correct kennel facilities such as a disused piggery. You need to understand big commercial kennels which do breed designer dogs in disused piggeries wouldnt be those ones being charged because they have the necessary approvals and tick all of the boxes for keeping records etc Ill wait before I make judgement and I would advise others do so too. In the last few months many very small breeders including registered purebred have had visits from council in Victoria to ensure they have a kennel area , which fits the requirements for the codes and have been given 28 days to comply if they like them but there isn't anything in law to say they have to give someone time to comply before they charge them. One this week was a working dog breeder who now has to decide on building something that resembles a piggery or desex their dogs but they could have just as easily been charged for being an illegal puppy farm.

Noticed you edited your post Trespass is never necessary .If there is reason to believe someone is doing something which would require someone coming in and catching them there is already a process in place which can be done legally .

Were these people breeding designer dogs in sub standard conditions? What is it exactly that they have been charged with?

There is a difference between animal RIGHTS and animal rescue Tralee and there is no such thing as Oscars law in law. Before anyone gets too caught up in all of this before we know what it is they have been charged with be aware that new laws were bought into Victoria which enable them to charge people for not having their Domestic Animal Licences or their development applications in place.They dont need to be keeping them in poor conditions or treating them cruelly for charges to be made or to be found guilty of this crime . Do you all have a current development application and approvals to enable you to breed dogs from your property ?

I believe they now have tax exemption/status MRB. People who 'adopt' and pay for a dog through pound rounds make a "donation' rather than pay an adoption fee. I have emails from adopting families who have pulled out of a pound rounds 'adoption' due to the clear level of incompetance and non existent communication. Pound rounds refuse to return the money these families have paid in advance for adoption, kennel fees, transport, bathing etc. In some cases it is over $500. Pound rounds response to these families is that they have simply made a 'donation'. Not only will they not refund the money (family has not even met the dog) the families are then guilted and threatened in making the decision to pull out. They are also forced to cover all fees and costs until the dog is rehomed through pr's Would hope they get the people who are "donating" to sign off on this or its a legitimate complaint to the dept of fair trading and ASIC would also go in with a big stick if in fact they are taking donations when people dont know they are donating rather than paying for a product.

O.K. Hang on. You came here looking to set up a new rescue group so here is my advice. For just a minute forget about the type of dogs.This is some of the stuff we help rescue with via the MDBA. Best way to approach it is to research it and sit down and write it up as a business plan. Be honest no one other than you has to see it but it will take you to the end and make it very clear to you what its going to take and what you need to cover if you are not going to burn out and not enjoy the journey. Sounds like its a bit of a silly thing to do when you only want to be small and operate it all form home etc but you will be surprised at how it all comes together and make you see more clearly what your challenges will be and how to deal with them or see they are not worth the effort.It is really the difference between whether a rescue group will be effective and whether they will still be here in 5 years time. Write it as if I am reading it and assessing whether I think you are a good bet to give you a massive donation to help you to get started. Start with an executive summary. Tell me your business concept in general terms ,what services you will provide and how you will ensure your are doing the best thing possible by the dogs and the adopter. Tell me how you will achieve the ability to become well known and be able to gather support and operating capital.What if anything will you be doing differently to any established group etc.Why would I want to give you 100,000 to start up over donating to a group that's already established. Ready. Your motives for STARTING THE RESCUE GROUP Tell me how you initially gathered the concept for your rescue Why you wish to pursue the idea and why you believe you are capable of succeeding What the opportunity is - talk about why you think the opportunity for you to open your own rescue group exists. Tell me what the weaknesses and strengths are that you perceive in other groups who will be doing similar to what you are going to do .What you perceive to be current social and industry trends in this area and how this will help you in what you wish to do. Tell me what your goals and objectives are - all of them and be honest. As well as helping dogs do you want to be seen to be doing what you do and becoming well known or would you prefer to work in the background.Are you looking for social interactions. Are you looking to make any money from this if so how much - enough only to cover the expenses for the dogs, to cover a small wage for you etc. Anything you personally would like to take from it all. Your target market Who will you be going after to try to educate Who will you be going after to gain donations or sales who will you be obtaining dogs from Who will you be targeting to try to find homes and foster carers to help you Financial What will your start up costs be and will you need help to raise these funds or will they come from your own pocket? What funds are you going to need to operate on a daily bases or per dog average What do you expect will be your profit and loss figures for the first year Business structure and legal requirements. List and describe your local ,state and federal legal and regulatory requirements and how these will affect your rescue group. If you are a charity there are extra requirements with ASIC ATO state aprovals for fundraising, more money and pains associated with audits and accountability. Council regs on how many dogs you and any foster carer can keep on their premises and under what laws are you able to do so etc. What insurance requirements will you need to cover yourself and your volunteers.How much will they cost? What restrictions/ requirements will be on you to ensure you are operating legally are there any legal requirements on how you can advertise . What legal contracts will you need drawn up for your volunteers and adopters, people you take dogs from etc? What your legal name will be and what registrations you will need - ABN, GST PAYG etc. What tax implications will there be around what business type you have chosen. Where will your premises be - do you own the property or rent it .Do you expect to move from this place to another? If so when , where and how much will that cost ? What alternative sites will you have - foster carers homes, kennels, etc and what will you need to cover to ensure these are doing the right thing via law and the dogs and the people? What have you used to determine the market? How do you know you will be able to place a couple of dogs per month , will you need to place them locally or look at transporting them.What sort of people are most likely to want one of these dogs. Who is your target market ?What is the size of the market - take stats from other similar groups to see exactly what you should expect to have a general turnover , how long you will need to keep them, how much on average each will cost you. Current state of this industry You have consulted here with people involved in the industry,have you recorded this and taken note rather than simply discarded it. How do you think this attitude which you have experienced may impact on what you intend to do, will it be easy or difficult to work as a wider part of a team, how will competition impact ? have you consulted anywhere else and with anyone else and if so how have the responses impacted what you might do and the way you do it? Are there any seasonal factors you need to take into account - is it more difficult in winter for you do what you do etc write up a SWOT analysis Include how these things might affect you and your family what are your strengths weaknesses opportunities threats How will you price your dogs, promotional goods Who will help you with fundraising and what will you do to raise funds What plant and equipment will you need What equipment will your foster carers and transport people need How will you advertise and promote yourself how will you deal with complaints how will you stay in touch with your carers and owners what are your policies and procedures how will you screen and train foster cares how will you do house checks. what is your risk management plan what is the expected sales mix how much from dogs how much form donations how much from sales how will you manage health and safety issues how will you structure your organisation- will you have specific people working on specific tasks such as fundraising ,web design etc Finally after all that why do you think this is best for the dogs.

No mention of cruelty. Quote In the Dandenong Magistrates Court on Thursday, Derul Van Hollis and his company Demfield Pty Ltd pleaded guilty to running an unregistered breeding business and failing to comply with the code of practice for breeding and rearing establishments. The prosecution, by Casey Council, was the first brought under "Oscar's law", named after a puppy rescued from a dog-breeding factory in central Victoria in 2011. Magistrate Brian Barrow blocked a media request for access to the brief of evidence, after counsel for the council, Brett Melke, argued that although the defendant had pleaded guilty, a substantial number of issues were still in dispute. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/breeder-pleads-guilty-to-puppy-farm-charges-20121206-2axp3.html#ixzz2ELv5k5P7

So do we know what the charges are - cruelty or just not having the permits etc ?

Yep - I can understand them wanting to wait if its a breed that needs to be certain age for some sort of testing but why don't they want young boys to mate? This is when they are most fertile .Just another example of how there isnt much left which is best for the species and another decision which is taken out of the hands of the breeder.

I've only responded to questions asked on why I thought that. It's really okay for people to view things differently. I'm not trying to start a fight. Anyway enough of it as a difference in opinion is something that could go round in circles forever :D Yep you're right but when a whole bunch of people get together who are motivated to make breeders look bad they jump on small crap like this and bag out the breeder for a couple of years over it and post like yours here or there feed it.

You see when we get bogged into this stuff all the other stuff that really does count is not even mentioned.

Depends what breed you're talking some don't/rarely have large litters. Also it's been said before that buyers often expect a cheaper price for an older dog but why? It's had more training and work put into it, they aren't worth any less then an 8 week old puppy. I have no problem with a price reduction done tactfully ie not WAS and NOW. But thats just my personal view. Supply and demand puppies sell quicker and easier than older dogs in some breeds and if the breeder needs them to be in new homes in a time frame that best suits them and the pup reducing them gets them sold .

Why should you not be breeding if you need to reduce the price of a puppy to have it in its new home when its ready to go home? Believe it or not sometimes puppies are sold and then at the last minute someone may change their mind, sometimes they all want girls and you get boys and vice versa .Sometimes you have dozens of people on a waiting list and when you go back to them they have all found a puppy somewhere. Geez sometimes the economy is slow and people don't have as much money to spend. Sometimes the breeder is too worried about advertising in many other places in case someone decides its unethical for them to do that too.

Because when you reduce the price, you may encourage someone who couldn't stretch for the extra couple of hundred. More advantageous for the dog to have his new home while he is still young and is not the ONLY puppy at the breeders/ Of course, they may not have reduced the price at all, they may have just said they did. I actually dont mind the reducing of the puppy at all, what I don't like is tie words WAS and NOW used like theyre a packet of ham on a woolies shelf. But they arent a packet of ham on a woolies shelf or any other shelf the breeder is still in control of the ale and simply worded it to see if they could get a bit more interest. It doesn't mean the pup will go home for any price if it isn't a good home for it Do you have something personal against this breeder? Why does it need to be so hard and everything so scrutinized and criticized to be able to find a new home for a puppy? its the same thing isnt it - you want to put pressure on someone to keep puppies when it isnt the best thing for the puppy and or the breeder rather than be seen to be reducing the price ,when clearly the breeder has decided for what ever reason its best if it goes home now .Cant we just trust that the breeder knows what is best and leave it up to them?