Steve

What do you think is the optimum period of formal training per week with a qualified trainer for puppies 8 weeks to 6 months? . What do you think is the optimum time for a puppy to attend puppy training classes

Interesting you should say this because I well recall the amount of times you jumped down my throat in the castigating way because I had a different opinion on dog breeding, particularly in regards to genetics and heritable diseases. Did I - Im sorry I have no recollection of that in fact I cant remember ever having a discussion with you re genetics or heritable diseases but Ill take your word for it = please accept my apologies.

You are just too clever for me Tralee - I got what I was saying but didn't understand why you felt it your position to warn me or give a purple face because I couldnt see that what I said should be an issue - after all I didnt give any indication as to whether I agreed or not about what was the truth of the matter with Aussie bull dogs. I didn't get why someone would tell me to start my own forum or chastise me for biting the hand that fed me because I thought it was funny that we cant speak of these things until they become recognised.

Steve does not have a cross breed of choice. The Australasian Bosdog had a name change to comply with what they will need to address when they come to recognition as per the rulings via the ANKC. If they didn't do it now they would have had to do it somewhere along the line in order to comply with the eligibility criteria for breed recognition. The people who have been breeding these dogs have split into different groups because some didn't agree with what some others felt was was best for the future of the breed. This is normal in all breeds in the early stages which have no outside arms length breed registry and is common for breeds trying to work toward one day being reconised as an established breed in this country. As a result one - possibly two of these groups will always be breeding Aussie Bulldogs,with diminished foundation stock and not Bosdogs and one of them will never ever seek ANKC recognition. Each is evolving to have their own criteria for testing breeding stock and what dogs can be used to infuse the gene pools etc. In my opinion one is head and shoulders over the others and that has nothing to do with potential application for ANKC recognition. Time will tell which one - if any - survives and time will also tell if any ever do decide to apply for ANKC breed recognition because even the ones who changed their name have said the name was changed "in case " in years to come they wanted to apply for ANKC recognition.

People who have allergies to dogs still have allergies to non shedding dogs - in fact some actually suffer more. That's because allergies to dogs isn't anything to do with their coat. The fur is too long to be inhaled. Allergies to dogs are about the saliva which dries and can be in the air and especially the dander which is the skin flakes all dogs regardless of breed shed. Dogs which have to be groomed more often because they have to be brushed due to a non shedding coat actually have a risk more dander floating around the house as the brushing and grooming stirs it up and makes it mobile rather than staying on the dog which can easily be inhaled. By the way many of these breeders are registered with AAPDB and registered with council as a domestic animal breeding facility - they are not supposed to be members of and registered with the ANKC - Vic dogs - but some are. Best to avoid anyone breeding first cross anything to be sure.

I think the OP's question was answered in full. Steve, the issue of breeds in development was initiated by that early post. Apart from the rules not permitting pointed retorts using the term 'you' the issue of cross breeds, designer dogs and breeds in development is closed here. The armegeddon that would ensue, is inadvertantly refered to in the reference made to the active politics currently behind the Australian Bulldog. Quite simply, and you must allow me to say this without personal or public recrimination, the history of the Labradoodle is nothing short of a herculean tragedy. The "breed" should be disbanded and discarded. But of course, there are vested interests, and lobbyists that provide support. There are questions about who these people are and what they stand to gain. To spell it out, it is on a par with puppyfarming. That is the public perception, because that is the state of affairs. The project has been irreparably damaged and is untenable. I have nothing against dogs, and dogs in development but it seems to me that we have got the cart before the horse. As I said, developing new breeds needs much more independent and authoritive scutiny and must be taken out of the hands of .... well, hicks and yokels. Nothing remains hidden. I don't think it will be necessary for Julian Assange to bring to light the sordid details of what is behind the current fiasco called 'breeds in development.' As a rejoinder: I have acknowledged that it can be done humanly, morally and ethically but that is not the current perception. Respectfully Yours PW Oh I get it - Oakway said they are not a registered breed and we were all supposed to pretend the question had been answered even though they are a registered breed but they use another registry with pedigrees registered with a different registry rather than the ANKC because they cant use the ANKC one for 15 years. I will remember that in future and try to maintain the conspiracy of secrecy.

SSHHHH You'will get in trouble for this - you're not supposed to talk about these on this forum for many more years and only if they are ever recognised by the ANKC as a breed.

There is a huge difference between a foxie and a poodle or an oodle. Seems to me that the best way to work out what breed she should get is about being clear what she wants in a dog and what she definitely doesn't want - then go looking for what suits those criteria. It makes little sense to do that and then choose one which is not predictable in health, management or temperament. A first cross oodle has 68 different possible coat combinations and every one is different to every other one.No one can ever say what th edog will be like to live with as its always a guess.unless you are sure you can live with any dog then don't go there as you may as well pick any mutt bred by anyone anywhere for the same risk factors - calling it an oodle doesn't change what it is - a mongrel which is unpredictable. In some you may be able to be sure it wont shed - malt cross poodle for example has both with non shedding coats but there is a hell of a lot they don't have in common and worse, somethings they have in common which may show up as negatives. Purebred dogs are predictable and while obviously some people are able to live with any dog most need to be able to determine and factor in how often a dog needs to be groomed, whether its something you want to do yourself or will need to pay for each month with a professional groomer, how much its likely to eat, what type of fencing it will need, what its characteristics and traits are and how its expected to behave when working on inbred instincts. How much exercise it needs and how much energy it has and how that will fit into your environment and lifestyle. You cant determine whether someone is keeping their dogs in poor condition or mass producing them based on where they live - the most well known high volume first cross oodle breeder is in NSW and most of the bigger names which own up to a thousand dogs are in other areas and some of the best registered breeders in the country live in Gippsland. Not all ooodle breeders mass produce them either but regardless of who breeds them or how they are kept a mongrel is a mongrel - why bother looking for a breeder in the first place if that's what you decide you want and can live with there are heaps of mongrels waiting for new homes in pounds.

This is a little on the pathetic side isnt it? Careful steve? At no point what ever in this discussion have I in any way elevated, promoted or said a single thing which remotely says Im happy with what they do or otherwise. I havent said its a good or a bad thing and I have never said that any breed or breed in development is better than an ANKC recognised one. I have never even seen an Aussie Bulldog. Someone came in and asked a question - I answered it truthfully and said I think its funny that we cant discuss the Aussie Bulldog or the Australasian Bosdog on this forum until such time as it becomes recognised by the ANKC . Tralee - Its really nice that you have enough education and knowledge of the details, skill level and politics of the breeders of this breed in all three groups to determine that they are more skilled or more lucky than some other group of people you have determined don't cut the grade which surely you must have studied to make such an assertion but take note it is you who is discussing this and - you who has elevated one breed in development over one other - not me.You who has introduced a designer dog "breed" for the want of a better word into the mix. For people to slap me around because I said I think its funny that we have to wait for 15 years to talk about this is called bullying but you're right its not funny - its sad that your level of education on what is really going on in the Aussie Bulldog breed - including how they are beating the hell out of each other which threatens any chance of them making it ever to a breed recognition situation,includes the fact that some of them refuse to go with a name change and refuse to ever even consider potential ANKC breed recognition wont be discussed. I would think knowledge of this would bring into question many agreeing with your judgement of skill level or luckiness which you have determined they have in greater abundance to another group of dis organised individuals who breed designer dogs and far removed from what these guys are doing anyway.It means the differences in sub groups and the true state of affairs,problems that have to be faced and considered in breeds as they evolve will not be known by those who come here to learn. This in my opinion is a missed opportunity for people to learn and understand what really is happening in the real world and how to determine whether they should consider purchasing one of these dogs from one group or one breeder or another and what the risk factors are - perhaps if there could be a discussion the outcome would be to ensure that people saw why they should also wait 15 years to consider a breed but, this is none of my business past being a forum member and having the audacity to say I thought something was funny please don't make out that it is. I couldn't care less if this is never discussed here or anywhere. If people want to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend its not happening,never learn of anything past their own small circle and assumptions and push for everyone else to remain as ignorant as they are on any subject so be it.

Excuse me? It is funny to me that we have to wait 15 years before we are able to discuss this on this forum and it seems a little unfair to me that you feel its O.K. to go at me and abuse me.- for what saying I think its funny? Huge sin. Very few people who visit this forum could be more supportive of it or have more respect for the forum owner and I understand why Troy has this rule - but if its O.K. with you or not I still think its funny.

Whats this got to do with me? I didn't start the topic and for the record I didn't sing any praises,promoting or supporting anything here I simply told the truth. I happen to think its funny that we can no longer learn and talk about things - though in 15 years when they are recognised we will be able to do that and last time I looked it was O.K. to think something is funny without being told to leave the forum.

But unless there is evidence to prove it was these particular dogs how can anything be done?

If the dog is declared dangerous - it has to be about its behaviour - not its parents or any other relative. So you need a description of what that behaviour was in order to be able to appeal that or at least have knowledge of what it is that the dog is accused of doing. If its just restricted then that is about its breeding. You have to prove a dog is not restricted but they have to prove a dog is dangerous

Yeah you have to wait about 15 years before they are actually officially recognised by the ANKC before you are supposed to mention them here

Not recognised by the ANKC but that doesn't mean they are not registered and their breeders are not registered breeders. Just means its not done through the ANKC.They still have shows,its just that their shows are not sanctioned by the ANKC- they still have a code of conduct and they still have a registry to keep stud records of their dogs. There are several breeds and or breeds in development in the same position and many of them never want ANKC recognition as they believe that it would be detrimental for their breeds. Some are working toward one day asking for ANKC recognition. Mini Foxie is a prime example.

A dog show historically was supposed to be the judging of the dog as it appears to the sight of a judge on the day fo how it stacked up against the breed standard. It was a good system as long as everyone knew and understood that this was all it was and that before any dog regardless of whether it had been shown or if it had a title had to be considered for the health, temperament and structure as well. These things need to be judged by vets and experts as they are things which can change and cant be seen to the human who is standing in the middle of a show ring. We had some choices when pedigreed dogs exposed hit [ or even before that ] - we could have said back off you lot - we are only judging the dog on how it looks to a judge on the day and all the other stuff will be judged by someone who is considering breeding via other veterinary judging methods. We could have picked up the education of breeders to tell them that in case they didn't know you shouldn't judge a dog suitable only based on how it has fared in the ring and you need to be honest and open and share these things to enable those selecting dogs for breeding to make informed decisions. We could have smacked the judges and ensured they understood the standards better and how to judge them away from extremes. Dogs were never meant to be judged in a show ring for whether they had crook hips unless they showed the symptom of that on the day - it shouldn't matter whether someone shows a dog with a structural fault as long as anyone looking at the dog for breeding knows what the fault is and what it may bring to the gene pool. As long as everyone understands the dog is only judged on the breed standard at that venue and not to consider only that all is well . So if someone wants to show a dog which has a structural fault as long as they are up front about it and anyone looking at the dog or one of its close relatives for breeding has that information - where is the problem if its judged in a show ring ?

Who is the Australian Animal welfare strategy?

Puppies are usually not chipped until they are at least 6 weeks old so that means the breeder cant advertise them until they have been done. Theoretically its possible to chip a puppy at birth but no one Ive ever heard of has done so. You're right lots of them advertising here are breaking the law.

Im so sorry you have been given this news and I agree you need a specialist to be sure. Part of theproblem when we start to talk about this is that when people say heritable,genetic, congenital we start looking for a magic marker,and modes of inheritance etc but the reality is that the chances of this particular problem ever having a method of being able to spot which dog might produce a pup with the condition via some genetic marker is never ever likely to occur. Some say its autosomal, others recessive and more polygenic depending on which studies you look at. The fact that the incidence is higher in females for some points to it maybe being somehow sex linked or at least hormonal . Some feel allowing bitches to breed sooner with all the relaxin during pregnancy etc prevents it which may have a case as the gradings and results are affected by a bitch in season etc. Many big names in the canine nutrition area have some good points to make on it being diet related or at least preventable or limited by diet. Lots of research to back this up. Some new research even has some good stuff on the bitch's nutrition and the grandmothers nutrition – as the pup is the product of eggsimplanted into the bitch from her mother when she was conceived . Some are definitely caused by a deformity of the knee cap at birth and if that's all itever was it would be much easier to breed away from but some are caused byangulation of bones in other parts of the body too – for example conformational issues in the hind quarters such as being too high in the rump puts pressure on the fore joints and minor angulation differences in the shoulders Or chest would do the same - others are caused by aninjury . This is why understanding the breed standard and working toward good conformation is so important and oftenover looked by those who breed with no other goal but to make people pets or for something that is winning in the ring with no vision of what leaving that bit out may mean. It's just not that simple and grades need o be correlated with conformation and movement specificsto track if one is more likely than another to get this if improvement is going to be based on science is needed. Some have also a strong case for it being impacted by immunity which leads back to nutrition, environment and exercise. The screaming big deal is that even though we have been testing and recording and trying to breed away from it the incidence hasn't been significantly loweredand if it is showing a lesser incidence in some lines that may be due to a myriadof reasons and small decisions that breeder makes rather than some magic gene which may one day be identified running around in the dog. The fact is no one really knows and in all honesty expecting any breeder could guarantee it won't happen is unrealistic. Breeders shouldn't be guaranteeing against this either -all any one can say is that the dog is healthy at time of sale unless it is something that can be tested via DNA and there is no doubt that the pups won't get it. This is just one issue breeders have to take into account – dogs have 100,000 plus genes - when they are planning their breedings and although it doesn't feel like it at the moment in the big scheme of things PL is not such a big deal when you compare it to heart disease, SM and a whole heap of others which would have a far greater impact on quality of life and longevity and future generations etc. Breeders have to weigh up the risk factors and work to goals and because we are breeding live creatures no matter how much we try sometimes all doesn't go according to plan.Sometimes we have to choose the lesser risk too.

Yes seems to be too easy doesn't it and it goes further than that anyway. Here we have market days once a month and last time there was a litter of staffies sold - everyone talking about how beautiful they were and trying to scrape up money to take them home. Scrawny puny things about 5 to 6 weeks old is my guess. No one locally had a clue who they were and all they needed was a $10 fee to have a table! Took em 2 hours to sell the litter and they drove out of town with no accountability and several thousand dollars richer. I sent my kids out to try to see what the rego number was of the car they were in but they were gone before we thought of it.

Yes we can - we have been yelling about pet shops and puppy farmers generically Australia wide.No reason why this couldnt be targeted just as effectively and at the least raise some awareness that they are pond scum and not to buy from them.

Before the dept of fair trading get involved the person being complained about has to be an entity - if its just Joe Blow selling pups at a market it's sell em and run and even if you can find them again there is only civil courts that may give you a hearing but it is expensive and tedious. Its difficult to understand why the focus is on internet sales and how we need a rego number to be able to advertise etc when these guys dont advertise and would fall through the cracks anyway. The more I think about the more pathetic I think it is that a council would give it a tick or even that its still able to be done . A fiernd was telling me about puppies at a market in Queensland as well that were sickly and puny and being sold in the dozens. Its time those yelling about pet shops and puppy farmers got onto this first.

Its an absolute disgrace - 50 times more risky and worse than any pet shop . At least a pet shop is stationary and you can find them again and have a base to lodge a complaint etc these people race in sell the dogs and disappear. Shocking.

They should be legislating against this rather than going after how people bloody advertise - its a world gone mad and a disgrace to any council in this day and age who allows it to happen.