Steve

No amout of training will stop some dogs especially those which have been bred to bark in order to do the work they were originally intended to do. iBut apart from that not all owners are equal either. If someone doesnt want to put in a heap of energy,money , stress into months of trying to cope and into training etc or run the risk of upsetting the neighbours and having visits and complaints about them at council and would prefer to go to debarking - what the hell is the problem? Why push them and make them go that way ? We yank out their sex organs, over vaccinate, give them a slow poison each month for heart worm, even have them bumped off without asking for permission, we can have the vet put in fake bloody testicles and thats O.K. but if debarking suits us and its done by a vet and allows everyone to get on with life - with the dog - what is the problem?

Well if thats true and the whole breed isnt unhealthy then its time we promoted that fact to enable the public to see that dogs bred by good breeders are not suffering from these issues. For now all I see is a barrage of info about how unhealthy they are and how poor interpretation of the standard has contributed - no one counteracting that with any evidence to show otherwise. The public info being presented is saying show breeders are most responsible but show breeders blame those who only breed for money and who dont care about the standard. Based on the info that has been presented you can hardly blame the public for thinking they should go somewhere other than a show breeder to buy a BB puppy and until there is some info out there to tell them other wise its hard to see much will change.

We have introduced a system which is collecting this kind of information and is added to the pedigrees .We have invited pet owners who have papered dogs [ main or limited] and rescue who obtain papered dogs as well as breeders to supply us with that info and we add it into our pedigree system. It also keeps notes on scores, test results, reactions to drugs, vaccines, immune system issues etc and what type of job etc the dogs did - including age of death and cause of death. The only thing anyone can gain from an ANKC pedigree at this time is where the champions are so the more info we can build the better chance we have to ensure future generations. this gives us info on all dogs in the pedigree including thOse which have not been used for breeding to enable us to see patterns and spot problems to steer away from etc. Not everyone thinks this is a good thing but we are gathering a fair amount of info which will be able to help if someone wants to use it especially as we are not just relying on breeder input. Information has never been easy to gather - its relied on honesty and memory, word of mouth,gossip etc. and being able to have this info is the best tool any breeder can use to build the profile and choose dogs to breed with. However, in this breed's case the problems are associated with conformation rather than genetic diseases and we cant just hope that some magic DNA test or score will help us to select breeding stock and the answer to that will come from breed standard interpretation and trying to control breeders who dont care about future generations and only see the money in the one they are producing. You get what you select for and loose those things you dont consider important . Is it important to have a free whelping bitch if her puppies become champions, or if her puppies can run around the block without dropping or if her puppies live 10 years longer than average for the breed? A judge can consider some things on the day and the better interpretation of the standard can be used to turn it around but its also about other things the judge isnt able to know too. Having breeders with different goals is good for a breed overall but with such a heavy push toward assuming anyone who doesnt show their dogs must be the bad guy and couldnt be working on a different primary goal which they think is good for the breed its going to be an uphill push because it means there is no where to go when you are in a corner.

I don't think it was Conztruct's intention to say that those who own dogs from 'less reputable' sources consider their pets throw-away (well at least I hope they didn't). My families BYB girl is seriously the greatest dog to walk the earth ( well in my unbiased opinion anyway). She has just retired from agility competitions at age thirteen obviously not a good poster pup for BYB dogs are unhealthy. I'm genuinely interested Steve, where is the over regulation coming from, is it the government or is it dog organisations? I don't breed so I honestly don't know. In some states if you are a breeder a whole heap of laws and mandatory regs cut in which you dont have to be under if you dont breed. More and more regs come in as well for the state CCs which registered purebred breeders have to operate under. many of which fly in against basic science for the species. For example as a dog owner you can decide when and if you will have your dog vaccinated. If it is a breeding dog in some states you have no choice but to have them vaccinated by a vet every year. If you dont you are in breach of the mandatory codes for breeding dogs.We had a world reknowed canine immunologist come out and give seminars , She made DVDV's and helped with info for our canine immunology course but none of that knowledge means anything because the law says so. . Laws and codes are designed for people who have a couple of hundred dogs and even then its about how dogs in boarding kennels or shelters should be kept not breeding dogs. None of us want tO keep our dogs on concrete floors, we dont want a government to decide how many we are able to allow to sleep together at night. Choices we used to have regarding whether we felt a bitch was fit enough to breed or how often she should be bred and which dog she should be bred to have been removed.or restricted. Thats not even getting near where the pressure to fall into some crazy mould is put on about how you are or are not responsible. Dont advertise here or there and if you dont like someone or if you have a difference in breeding goals,dont show etc etc just dob them in. the RSPCA have to respond to complaints so even if they dont get em for what they have been reported for maybe their paperwork isnt right up to date and the stress of being raided is all they deserve. In some places you need a Development application and approval to run a business just to breed one single litter of puppies. In others in order to get a permit to have a litter and keep an entire dog you have to have your home inspected once a year. People who have been breeding for years who have had half a dozen dogs sleeping on their beds have had to have kennels, and areas for quarantine. Last friday I fell down a hole and sprained my ankle. ice pack and strapping and a limp for a week and its nearly all better - id treat my kids the same way but if I had a dog which developed a limp in case someone saw it id rush it to a vet in case I got pinged for not getting vet treatment. Once I was proud of the fact that my dogs lived for 20 years and didnt need to see a vet - now if they dont see a vet Im a bad breeder and dont care about my dogs. there have been proposals for stock feed places to dob in people who buy lots of dog food, vets to dob in people who bring in puppies but no older dogs ,licences for breeders, placement of our address in the public arena.Dobbing us in to the ATO for undeclared income. Some are stupid and will never fly but its constant and its no where near the fun it used to be and when you have people who are not motivated to breed for money and they no longer enjoy it - its all over. So its about the over regulation and the politics and culture and until you can make it fun again why on earth would anyone put up with it if not for money? Whether its a real threat or not many of us are just simply over it and one breeder said to me this week. "The amount of pressure that was taken from me when I chucked in the CC membership was huge and its the best thing I ever did."

Its not about support its about over regulation. Breeders arent walking away because the ANKC doesnt support them.

Yep.

But- if we promote this niche market and spend money and resources to go nuts telling pet buyers they are better suited to go to someone who is breeding registered purebred dogs where is the supply? If we try to increase the demand for what we do who will fill that demand when every day there are less and less breeders - only 4 and a half thousand Australia wide last year and in just the last 2 weeks Ive heard of 3 who have walked away - about a dozen in the last year. I have my last ANKC litter on the ground now. We place lots of pressure on breeding less and every single time we look up its harder and harder. Breeding purebred dogs used to be good fun, buying a registered purebred puppy used to be pretty simple too. Thats long gone. If anyone went mad and started promoting registered purebreds right now as is being suggested all that would do is send more customers toward those who now breed unregistered purebreds.

Just in case someone wants to run out and report me for being anti dog shows or anti ANKC please allow me to say - thats not true. I believe its important to adhere to a breed standard and for the majority of breeders to select for that as well as health and temperament in order for us to have predictible dogs into the future. However, blind freddie can see that this has gone way over what most people see as acceptable. What are the breeders of this breed in this country doing about it to make it better?

Its become about marketing. whether that is about getting more donations for a cause, a bigger grant for a study, more members,more viewers more clients money for puppies or vet fees more credibility for a traditional pastime etc Each group bags out the other in order to justify what they do.We pick and choose some studies over others to push our case rather than research objectively .We pretend the real science doesnt exist and make up our own. Lies , propoganda and sensationalism have been used to dictate public opinion for and against most groups. Laws and regs have been put in place which are not what is best for the species, or breeds or dogs. Trying to sort it all out for anyone who is prepared to see they or the group they belong to may have made mistakes,that they may be missing vital information and the end result isnt what is necessarily best for the dogs or families who live with them is a minefield . The pressure which is on to make your opinions and decisions based on the accepted status quo of the groups rather than see all sides of the issue and consider the bigger picture is enormous. throw in a fair size helping of no one really knowing what definitions we can collectively use to describe behaviour we dont agree with - [puppy farmer] and we all just go on as usual. Trying to have an open discussion is likely to see you being gagged and dubbed anti this or that ,pro this or that, inconsitent or similar - In this case we see someone who is being influenced by what info he's given just as we all are. Not much is going on in the dog world which is really whats best for the dogs.

The whole thing has become a nightmare.The entire industry is over regulated and operates on mythology and marketing. Very little of it any more is about what is best for the dogs if it ever was. Management and husbandry is dictated by what people who have a different agenda push and none of it is based on science or reality Depending on what group you belong to you push the way you do it all as the best and only way - and more and more dogs are pushed to be treated like and act like humans. Show dogs and you are immediately considered by one group as soemoen who breeds dogs destined to suffer [PDE] or the other group is adamant that their way is the only way. Education of what is best for puppies, dogs and future families who will live with them is in the main based on crap. Spread and taken up as a method of promoting the group who pushes it. No one really knows what anyone is describing when they tag someone a puppy farmer .Some of us think thats someone who breeds dogs in substandard conditions - others think that means someone who breeds them in large numbers. Pets shops say they dont buy from puppy farmers but we dont believe them - no one really knows why we dont believe them - but its probably because we tag anyone who sells a puppy to a pet shop a puppy farmer and they see puppy farmers as people who breed dogs in substandard conditions. Best we stand back a bit and take a good look at which group is getting more complaints about the way the dogs they are breeding are suffering as they live with the families who love them. Not much point in continuing on in political correctness if the aim is supposed to be about what is really best for the dogs. You can justify anything if you want to. Animal rights has put a focus on where puppies come from and all he is saying is know where that is and be sure you dont get one bred in rotten conditions - the implication is that you have a better chance of having a healthy happy dog in its forever home - depends which way you look at it and who is pushing the barrow. PDE tell a different story.

Perhaps its time someone had a real chat with him - often when someone appears to be inconsistent its because there are assumptions in there which mean the message is changing. I dont think when he says registered breeder we hear what he thinks that is because we think CC registered - its the same old issue over and over and over and it's still about the definition of puppy farmers and registered and crap about this epidemic of filthy breeders who sell illegally bred puppies to pet shops. Remember Oscars law is based in Victoria and illegal is considered someone who is not registered as a domestic animal business with the necessary DA's.Its not about how many they have or breed.Big commercial kennels breeding first cross dogs which many of us consider puppy mills are given a tick - which may explain why he says buy an oddle from a registered breeder.

It was pretty brave really.Not even the Canine Councils have those kind of restrictions on their members advertising on their own website or journals. Those requirements are not part of their regs or ethics, not necessary for a member of the ANKC to be considered to be in good standing. In fact i think if the CCs did this they would be beaten up over restriction of trade and the whole pedigree dogs exposed thing. With breeder numbers Australia wide down to only 4 and a half thousand and that falling each year for Troy to go that way it demonstrates his ethics over ride his desire to consider his financial disadvantage by doing so. He can never really expect the breeder advertising side of his business will get better. Print media including those run by Dog show people with a target market of those involved in showing dont even have those restrictions on advertisers. Experience tells me it doesnt really matter who you allow to advertise someone will think they suck and its a bigger job taking on sorting out the criteria and ensuring it works the way it was intended than most understand. The fact that Troy has gone this way demonstrates how dogz has evolved and his desire to try to get it right without compromising. Someone had better nominate him for an award. www.mdbaawards.net.au

You can in every other state except Victoria. Legally that is. Also you can take a debarked dog from NSW or any other state into Vic to show it. again providing the dog has never been resident in Victoria You can show them as long as you can prove you had it done by a vet with the correct paperwork. Its only cruel if you didnt get the papers first. if I had $5 for every time I asked my self how this became a law and that they actually hunted down someone who didnt have the right paperwork Id be wealthy. Its just one of those things you cant stop shaking your head over.

No thats not quite right. If you do it all right and follow the law in Victoria - which is show the council that you have barking complaints and that you have tried all other methods of shutting the dog up and get the paperwork needed to have it done and have your vet do it you can take your dog to a dog show. If you go interstate where these papers are not required and have the dog debarked then you cant show the dog. They cant charge you with animal cruelty if a vet does the job but the law says if the dog has ever lived in Victoria and you take it ANYWHERE to get it done without the correct paperwork first then you will be charged if you take it to a dog show. In the case they have already prosecuted and charged the person who showed their dogs with animal cruelty a vet in another state did the ops and in that state the council approvals were not required .There was no breach of the law in that state and she didnt do the op anyway - the vet did. But before the dogs were debarked they lived in Victoria so because she didnt get the council papers she wasnt able to show them. The whole thing is quite amazing when you try to think it through. You cant make a decision between you and your vet without all this crap to have its voice lowered - which is little more than a tonsils op - but you can take it off any day and have it put down without any reason or explaination. You can have it desexed which in comparison is a masssive op and in some places you have little choice but to have it desexed if you are not a registered breeder. Hell you can even have fake testicles implanted - in some states you can still eat them ! Some animal rights loonie ovesaeas said breeders were shoving pipes down dogs throats and hitting them with a hammer and debarking them without a vet. Many have searched and searched but there is no evidence that has ever ever happened and I challenge anyone in this country to find just one single case where someone did that in order to stop the dog from barking and based on the anatomy its as good as impossible anyway. Traditionally responsible owners did all they could to try to avoid the council having to attend and keep the neighbours happy whilst living under conditions which suited them with their dogs. But the process now needs someone to complain first ,a whole heap of things attempted to work through to shut the dog up - whilst upsetting the neighbours even more until a ranger agrees that all else has failed and gives the nod for you to go to your vet and have the op done. Someone said it was cruel so you cant charge a person for getting their dogs debarked by a vet without paper work in place so you stop them by charging them if they take it to a dog show. Whether you think its cruel or not the fact that this was made a law and part of the prevention of cruelty to animals act is really quite amazing. Does anyone anywhere really think that taking a dog to a dog show which has had its voice lowered is cruel to the dog? Ordinary pet owners would go to their vets and ask for them to do the job - if the vet doesnt say no or inform them they need to have the paperwork what is the owner guilty of for asking if the vet goes ahead? If they were worried breeders would do the ppe down the neck trick why not simply make it illegal to debark unless you are a vet? The fact that this was able to be made a law and that someone has already been charged and prosecuted and found guilty of animal cruelty for attending a dog show with them is for me, quite remarkable.

The big deal about purebred dogs over any other dog is the ability you get to be able to predict its management and its characteristics. If everyone stopped breeding to a standard then in a few generations we would have generic dogs which are less able to be predictible. You dont have to show your dogs and you dont have to breed to extremes of the standard. Showing gives people the ability to have an experienced qualified judge determine if the dog is as good as its seen to be by its owner or breeder. How it does inthe show ring is only ONE of the things used to determine its suitability for breeding

No point in telling them your system is different to ours Becks - believe me its another one of those things like ground hog day.

oops hang on - it seems they are only extinct in S Africa - that would explain the differences though if they said in south africa I mised it and it was pretty misleading. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/11/11/black-rhino-extinct-in-west-africa-in-new-red-list-what-animals-will-disappear-next-115875-23553018/

Yep my news said that they had just been officially listed as extinct. I thought at the time that must mean the ones which were at Toronga zoo had died too. 5000 left is hardly extinct and gives em something to work with even if only in captivity - hard to kbnow which one to believe isnt it?

Looks like the ad was placed 3 weeks prior to the conviction so I guess we shouldn't jump to conclusions. But at the least it implies she was still selling and breeding after she was charged. Surely they can put conditions of bail on to prevent them being in charge of animals until the court case. But again - perhaps she was selling them for someone else and Im assuming more than I should. I would like to see the chain followed through. How many has she bred and how many sold and how she sold them and who she sold them to. Clearly one method she has used is via an ad as Souff has posted but Id be interested to know these details which may be able to be used to demonstrate where animals which come from places like this are distributed. If she hasn't got these details to give to the RSPCA she is in breach of the law anyway and could be pinged for that too. As she has been given directions and has been offered a way to avoid the charges and not done anything to clean up her act between visits - or worse if she has and it was worse than this to start with that speaks volumes for me too. I hope there is some method of checking she doesn't get the chance to make animals suffer like this again.

Are the glands around his nexk swollen? This is why they call it puppy strangles because its like the mumps. No matter what it is - the issue is about his immune system so work on that.

She still has animals advertised for sale! How?

O.K. Here's the deal. We are going to give away some Good Health and the Family Dog Coursesfor the next 7 days - until 2pm on the 20th of November. If you nominate someone for an MDBA Dog OwnersChoice Award in any category in the next 10 days we will enrolyou as an MDBA student and allow you to do the Good Health and the Family dog Course free of charge. You can find the nomination forms here www.mdbaawards.net.au Good Health And The Family Dog This short course has been written in response to many requests from dog owners who want to ensure that their dog is kept in the peak of physical condition and is fed the best possible diet for their circumstances. The course stands alone but for those wishing to progress to more advanced courses successful completion will count as credit for various other courses which we provide now and in the future Unit 1 What influences good health, the effects of food, exercise, play, grooming, company and the environment Unit 2 Recognising signs and symptoms of discomfort, pain and stress, parasites and their control, vaccination, common health problems and accidents, the pros and cons of desexing. Unit 3 The dog's daily needs, feeding regimes explained and how to choose between them ,water, basic ingredients, vitamins, minerals and supplements, diet related problems and how to overcome them This course is available to both members and non members of the MDBA Students will be given access to a tutor and private student forums Course is delivered via email and assignments returned via email or snail mail. Certificate is issued on completion. Course needs to be completed within 1 year .

ah well there you go. Not a very good one apparently.Good to see they can prosecute and get the job done without the need of more laws.

Ive no doubt that is she were a breeder - ever- it would have been part of the reporting. Looks like a straight out case of hoarding to me.

In all honesty how much a dog or breed needs extra attention or care or testing etc makes little difference to what a breeder can ask for a price and what they will get. Not much point in a breeder pricing their pups based on what it cost to produce them if no one will pay it. 100% its supply and demand .Some breeders may be able to nudge the prices up a bit based on what they can market themselves and their dogs as but at the end of the day you can tell me a dog is worth anything and it makes no difference if no one is prepared to pay it. I dont believe a good breeder could ever price their dogs and get what they are really worth and therefore anything they can get is a good thing as it helps them to put back into their breeding program and the standard of care they give their dogs. As more breed them or less people want them the price will come down - it's still basic economics. Always will be. Supply and demand. Personally I think registered breeders who are doing it all right should put their prices up as this is one sure way to demonstrate the difference. If good breeders are marketed effectively then the ones who dont test and who are not registered etc are seen to be cheaper because its a knock off - and inferior product and not branded by a good breeder's prefix. It baffles me as to why registered breeders who test keep their prices as low as thse who dont .Each time they put their prices up the ones doing it right should go higher and educate the buyers as to what more they get for the extra price.