Steve

You dont know how this particular establishment is going to operate - what if they do make an effort to make sure they find suitable homes for them,offer after sales service whether their pups will be sold from their premises where people can meet them and the parents etc or be sold in pet shops. Would it then be O.K. for them to apply for a DA to have 50 dogs on their property? Where dogs are concerned it has always been a disposable product. Im old enough to remember when people in my neighbour hood shot or drowned dogs they no longer wanted, had by accident and couldnt get rid of or it had killed the neighbours chooks etc. There were less people buying dogs and planning for the future 20 years ago than there is now. Whether we like it or not its a supply and demand factor and commercial breeders and pet shops are not having any problem in finding homes for their puppies or they would stop breeding them and stop taking them in. Why not concentrate on the people who are buying them? how is stopping people form breeding them in case the person buying them is an idiot going to help stop dogs suffering?

The trouble with this is that not all puppy farms are bad when it comes to conditions. I'm assuming this by the way, but I'm absolutely certain that out there are puppy farms who are 100% up to scratch with every regulation and who's dogs lead a pretty ok life. Does this make it right still? I think not because profit is still the motive, but this is the hardest argument when it comes to puppy farms. If they're clean, well cared for and not suffering then your average person will want to know where's the harm? Like some lady who's dog has a litter of mutts every year or so that she then supplies to the local pet shop. Right or wrong? Wrong in my eyes, ok in many others. These are the attitudes I believe you guys should be worrying about. Of course animal cruelty cases will always make people upset, but not all puppy farms involve cruelty and neglect and it's hard to argue the case against them when registered pure breed breeders have also been busted for neglect and cruelty. I thought that the idea behind Oscar's Law was to get rid of animal sales from pet shops. How will protesting about a perfectly legal and even moral (in the eyes of some) puppy farm have any impact on these sales whatsoever? You just look like a bunch of animal rights crazies who don't want any dogs bred or owned ever. :thumbsup:

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf. So why do you support them? to be fair it was just one persons opinion and not a reflection of how the whole group thinks towards us although i can't be sure how many others think like they do, all because they found several "breeders" who were farming cross bred oodles as well as being reg ANKC. but its not about personalities and the humans its about dogs being bred in puppy farms for me, while many say its all about how the dogs are treated in farms and that might be so for some who are notorious for treating animals bad, its more for me the way they are bred and how the animals suffer through human greed, like for instance not researching bloodlines to ascertain if a genetic problem will crop up and its imposssible as we know with cross bred dogs to do all this but also dogs can also suffer with reg breeders who do all the same things as a puppy farmer crossing breeds (come across a few of those) and also the after sales support and care afterwards is also missing. I follow these people because they are creating awareness for puppy farms in the public not so much as "Support" i have not ever been to their protest days but just read from afar what is going on. But its not just one persons opinion - animal liberation has stated goals which dont discrimminate whether you breed registered or non registered - what do you need to see that - they chucked you out and you say its because they were jealous because you wre getting attention?????? Why would they care if you were getting attention if they agreed with you?????? Any one who applies for a DA to breed dogs no matter what type or breed or cross breed they intend to breed will get the boots into them like this and that stops everyone from being out in the open. It doesnt stop them from breeding dogs and if they are going to have to go through this they are more likely to breed more dogs not less when they finally get their approvals. While you are banging away about how people should breed dogs and research bloodlines etc the cross bred breeders are banging back saying if they cross breed every litter there isnt any need to do this to eliminate recessives. AND they have a lot more on their sde than we do on ours. lets just be hypothetical for a minute - lets say you own 25 chi's and because you live in Victoria you have to apply for a DA to enable you to be able to do that - do you really think they would turn a blind eye and allow you to carry on as you do without a wimper because its purebred dogs ? For the record what you think is a puppy farm isnt really counted. The definition has been set by the RSPCA and various welfare groups. No part of that not one little bit relates to what they breed or whether they research bloodlines etc. A puppy farmer is defined by someone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions- in Victoria the standard conditions are set via a mandatory code - ask yourself if someone who owns 25 chi's and breeds and whelps them in their home is fitting the set standard conditions for breeding dogs - if not they are puppy farmers and no one - I mean no one gives a shit whether the dogs are purebred or not. So even though this chi breeder may think they are doing it right testing and researching bloodlines etc would you recommend they put their hand up and ask for a DA ? Are you sure it will all just be given a tick and no one will get beaten up for asking? Or perhaps the magic number is 50. I can just see everyone who wants to breed dogs rushing out to ask for a DA - not.

i found this out when i started digging around myself. they got awfully upset with me because i was a damn breeder and they are against,from what i gathered from the colourful exchange i had with one organiser, dogs being bred altogether. which is really quite scary because if the dog is not bred at all it will become extinct or either will become a DD mutt as many have said puppy farms will still exist judging by the way society is going, a "dog" with no apparent descriptions just a "dog" of no heritage only bred for profit like a supermarket product where you can buy it off the shelf. So why do you support them?

Australian Association of Pet Dog Breeders

and why are you centering the discussion around the issue of why dogs end up in the shelter? we are talking about whether we should have puppy farms or not. whether a dog ends up in there because the owner cannot afford to look after it, can't deal with its personality, is moving house or going overseas there;s a million and one reasons why a dog ends up in the pound or shelters across the country. there's no denying that our shelters and pounds regardless of the reasons why dogs end up in there in the first place have alot of dogs in there that they are trying to find homes for. i think we can all agree on that principle can't we? and whether they have to put them to sleep is also not the issue, they put them to sleep we've established that from not having enough room because of mismanagement, i get that, or because the dog is not suitable to be rehomed or a million and one reasons why there too. showing that you can research something and look in the internet is commendable i can do that too but there is no denying the fact that we as a society being a throw away one not valuing our domestic pets (whether thats been the case for many years or not) don't need to be adding to the number of dogs needing homes good or bad by breeding up thousands in these intensive dog farming establishments. if the pup or dog was looked after from the point of sale as Nic.B. pointed out the poor doggy nic.b is saving didn't have backup from the breeder who bred him. which if he had he would never have ended up being looked after in the system and adding to the numbers already in there. it brings a whole different other argument to the peice of petshops not knowing how to properly look after the breed in question so is unable to pass that onto the buyer, the buyer doesn't get the support to ask question and prevent the dog being cast off to welfare organisations. this is a very common story as i say, dogs and cats and our domestic animals are disposable and the culture in our society leans towards this especially when thousands upon thousands of dogs are bred in farms and not backed up and sold off to shops who have no idea the requirements that these poor puppies need but are passed off without the knowledge there and then discarded when it all gets a bit too hard. a breeder who cares about what they are breeding, will backup and answer questions and find suitable homes so the dumpage rate is reduced drastically so is this all erroneous Lilli by your standards then? Well bugger me- if we are talking about whether we should have puppy farms or not and thats all - then thats easy - No we shouldnt. That is of course we are all on the same page as far as defining what is a puppy farm is concerned. However, silly me I thought we were talking about protesting against the recent decision to allow one person to have a permit to have 50 dogs on their property and breed them. Better go back and have a look at who started centering the discussion about why dogs end up in shelters - dont think that was Lilli.

Here we go again I cant answer for the dog world but I can answer for the MDBA and myself personally. The idea we want it to just fade into the background because we dont happen to agree with a proposed methodology is way off the mark. There may be great opportunity to step up and be a leader but I dont dont believe that any part of the answer lies in following on behind animal lib and being led by propoganda. I believe the answer lies in us all being exposed ,easy to find and therefore answerable. I believe that by doing what is being done that it is counterproductive, that more dogs will suffer and it will encourage more people to hide away rather than do what we asked of them - apply for a DA , follow mandatory codes and be exposed and accountable. If you want to go along and knock yourself out and play that game because you think thats the way to the greater good thats your perogative I think its a waste of energy and counterproductive to the stated desired outcome. Its getting pretty tiresome to have to constantly be accused of all manner of crap and rather disappointing to think that because we dont think marching in the street or on the steps of parliament house is the answer we become the bad guys and have to defend ourselves. Its become rather a joke and makes me wonder why I bother if everything we do to fight the thing is over looked and trampled on because we dont agree on the animal liberation plan.

You need to go here and follow the steps.

The only record we have of who ordered one is via the Pacers store .We check that against pay pal and bank dpeosits to sort out if you have paid. So if you ordervia pacers and paid we have you Julie

We have been told over the last 2 days the cook book should be finalised and delivered to us in around 21 days so we can them get them inthe mail. Again the offer is still on the table if anyone is upset and wishes a refund -please say so and we will organise it. For the record - personally for me and Lesley its been hell -for Jay even worse and what a hero! A steep learning curve and Pacers have lost a truck load of money and it hasnt been much fun Thank you to everyone who has understood and been patient with us.

Can't say it's going to give us much when smartasses put 15+ litters against breeders who don't health test... Well at least we know that since there are 7 votes in each of the 15+ category, they are most likely all trolling so we can ignore that option altogether :p I think large-scale breeding is rarely justified. We already have so many puppies and dogs in the pounds that lose their chance of getting adopted every time someone decides to bring a litter into the world, breeders can't be doing that much good to the breed that they feel the need (for speed!) to breed every few months. That's just my opinion; I also think it's sad when breeders have 10+ (or some other high number) of dogs on their property--I mean even if they are getting fed well and looked after etc, how on earth can you provide so many dogs with..like.. love. I sound like a tree-hugging hippie, but whatever! I think dogs have a right to be in a place where they get an adequate amount of attention and affection bestowed on them, and it seems almost impossible to do that when you have a dozen or so dogs on the property. I could never do that, I'd need to hire staff to cuddle and pat so many dogs a day. :p I don't think that's a very fair comment. Breeders do not stop someone getting a pound puppy just because they have pedigree litters. People go to breeders because they want a particular breed and there is no garuntee that the pound will have that breed nor can they be sure the dog wont have baggage or have any genetic health problems. Pounds are full because jack asses don't think before they act. Anyway I don't think the original question can be summed up easily, there are so many variables. 15+ does seem excessive and I simply fail to believe that there are that many puppy buyers out there (I could offcause be wrong). I simply don't know how many litters I could place on one person, it's such an individual thing. EDT to add more Purebred registered breeders Australia wide only breed around 8 and a half thousand litters per year and there are around 34 and a half thousand litters bred .Thats a couple of hundred thousand more puppies than we breed each year which find himes . There is a fair argument that if there were more puppies being placed by breeders who care about where they go and who are prepared to help the owners find new homes if something goes wrong that The other couple of hundred thousand wouldnt be in such high demand. It is very rare that purebred puppy's supply is bigger than the demand. Everything is relative. Should we limit litters when one breed has three per litter and the other has a dozen? If a chi breeder has 15 litters a year that equals about 45 puppies. If a Dane breeder has 15 litters per year that could be 150 per year - hard to say across the board.

no, what im saying is breeding should be done not for a humans own selfish bank account but for the welfare of the dogs they have. the animals rely on us to look after them and it is up to us to make sure they come into this world as healthy as we can by researching, now puppy farmers with 2-3-4 breeds in the one poor puppy are unable to do this because they know nothing about the dogs they are breeding and don't want to know all they want to know about is how fast they can sell when they'll be out the door and how much money they will get. the pedigree dog if bred correctly with care is a far superior choice for consumers and people wake up to this after being stung. i've been told this too by a person in council, there is a market for these designer dogs so why not? there is a market for any puppies really, people just want a pet puppy so will end up going to a petshop or puppy farm until they learn how the dog was bred and how they are helping to keep thousands more dogs in prisons their whole life. You still dont get it. You say people shouldnt breed dogs for profit but for the welfare of the dogs - but the push is that even if purebred breeders dont primarily breed for profit they dont care about the welfare of their dogs - ETA Pedigree dogs exposed. You say that the pedigree dog if bred with care is a far superior choice but you dont hear that the majority of people are not agreeing with you - they are saying that the designer dog if bred with care is a far superior animal - but you cant see we dont get to tell people what they can breed and whether they should make money from it. In Australia it is a legitimate business and federal law says you cant prevent someone from doing something you dont agree with just because you think they are manufacturing an inferior product - if this were the case since pedigree dogs exposed purebred breeders would be even more endangered than they are now. They say they will breed puppies with their welfare as one of their goals - they have a development application which complies with the regulations and until they do compromise the welfare of their dogs all of this just makes it look like its a bunch of animal rights nutters. The big picture is to push for breeders to be separated and for each group - designer dog breeders and purebred breeders to fight against each other so each help to bring in laws against each other because they know in Australia you cant have one law for one and not the other . Its difficult for me to see that people cant understand that in this country you cant stop someone from doing the same as anyone else can in case they muck it up because one group doesnt approve of their motives. Please dont speak to me of dogs kept in rotten conditions in commercial premises because Im one of the girls who have been up to my armpits cleaning up after breeders over the past several months who have had dogs kept in the most appalling conditions you could possibly imagine. Where we have had to put on masks and overalls to enter people's bedrooms where they keep their dogs sitting in 6 inches of shit and walking on the dead bodies the breeder cant be bothered to remove. But they are registered only have 10 fertile bitches and they dont breed for money and they are purebreds ? Kidding right? Some of these have been purebred breeders still to this day active in the show ring - who take a dog out on the week end which has had the honor of living in a crate in the loungeroom separate from the current breeding stock in the bedrooms and everyone cheers them on ! Take a good long look at those in this country who have been pinged for animal welfare issues and some of them have been judges and owners of purebred dogs who say they dont breed for profit and everyone can see it. So do we say purebred breeders shouldnt breed dogs because some of them do the wrong thing? Do we watch PDE and say in case all purebred breeders muck it up we will stop everyone from breeding purebred dogs ?Maybe its better to take em on one bit at a time? Ban them breeding some breeds or outlaw some of their practices? Of course not so why cant you see we cant stop someone else in case they do the wrong thing or because we believe our puppies are superior when there is a ground swell telling the world the opposite. Why cant you see that if you fight to prevent one breeder having rights that this will inevitably affect our rights. If we are going to protest against numbers, breeds or motivations and carry on in case they do the wrong thing and we win the very first thing that happens is that the laws have to treat us all equally. Mandatory codes and domestic animal laws apply to us all. In australia they have to at federal level which overides all others. You are in bed with animal liberation and animal liberation want the breeding of all dogs stopped. Part of the plan is to divide us and have us fight each other to bring in laws which will affect us all. Beating the hell out of someone who asks to be able to do something on their property with a desire to be out in the open and easily located and inspected etc makes no sense to me when the alternative is for breeders to hide away and keep their animals in cramped filthy conditions in bedrooms and sheds in fear if they ask permission and are prepared to do it all they are told that they will cop this. I want them out in the open so we know who they are and where they are. I want all breeders regardless of what they breed or what their stated motivation is or how many they own or breed to be accountable for the welfare of their animals and thats not possible if we show everyone if they put their hand up we will make their lives hell. If you continue to judge people in case they do something wrong then there isnt much point in sooking because they do it to you. Before you all start moaning that I am supporting puppy mills, or designer dog breeding or that I am anti purebred breeders or anti show ring - all of which is stupid and nothing could be further from the truth - before you back a call to protest against this decision ask yourself whether or not that will help or hinder . I think it will hinder and make it more likely that more dogs will suffer and whilst you are more than welcome to disagree and continue on your path all I ask is that you think it through for the sake of the dogs. There is so much going on behind the scenes and I think animal rights are playing you like a fiddle.

Still none of this makes any difference. You want only registered breeders to breed dogs - so do I - but there are a hell of a lot of people who also want people to breed designer dogs. There are also lots of people who dont want anyone to breed any dogs whO see the bigger picture much more clearly than many of us do.

And I find it disheartening that you could feel that anyone here is suggesting we turn a blind eye to it. I simply dont agree with THIS TACTIC. Surely to god we can discuss what we think is a good way to fight dogs being abused without having to constantly defend ourselves and be accused of bloody supporting them and turning a blind eye when we dont think one action is the best way to do that.

I dont think its possible for anyone to say how many someone should breed based only on those variables. Especially when some breeds dont have any necessary testing and when results dont stop them anyway. 15 litters a year is over what I could do unless I was prepared to change my lifestyle and pay someone to work here but I think someone could do a good job of it if they had it all covered.

Actually you cant always tell how many litters someone is having by their ads on dogz . Its a pretty easy process to delete an ad and then re do the ad to make it fresh - I do it all the time. Same litter though.

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along. Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority. the RSPCA is doing this turning it all into a circus based on ignorance of a program that was aired in the UK we all know what im talking about, thats what their rubbish is about on their website but ANKC answered what they are doing about it yadda yadda yadda one minute they say go to a registered ANKC breeder and really screen the breeder but on the other hand they are bagging us. AFAIK this is where it is all coming from and all because they want to stop puppy farms but say and it is true that just becuase a breeder is registered doesn't mean they aint a puppy farm. farmers come in many different disguises these days. but....thinking about all this for many years breeds have been in fashion for instance in the late 70's afgans were extremely popular and every second person bred these now you'd find it hard to buy one, you can still ofcourse but they aren't around in volumes like they used to be. so im thinking that maybe DD's might go out of fashion eventually might take a few years, the only reason why this has all escalated and we see a group for cross breed breeders is all because of the internet and also because they are there because of money. yes we are in the minority because ignorance is bliss and it spreads like wildfire especially if you market it right like they have done through the media. But how does any of what you say make any difference. What is it exactly that we should protest about - is it just these people,is it just that they are not registered breeders, is it that they have said they want to house up to 50 dogs, is it that it is in this location,is it because they are breeding for pets. If they wanted a permit for say 20 dogs would that be O.K? If they were registered would that be O.K. What criteria would you have a breeder fit to be able to apply for a permit and not be targeted like this? If you want me to understand what you want me to protest about without that impacting on all breeders and everyone who may apply for a permit you need to be more clear about what it is which you object to and how you would have the regs and laws etc made which would not affect someone who is registered and who does the right thing according to what we think who needs to apply for a permit.

The idea that the MDBA is supporting puppy mills and designer dogs is ridiculous but to actually make that accusation in writing on facebook ???? Pretty silly.

Of course we dont support them - sheesh!

But it seems to me one great big fat point is missed all the way along. Registered breeders are a minority and they have had some pretty bad press. You cant make one set of laws for one group and not the other especially based on what they breed. You have to see surely that if you stop someone from breeding cross bred dogs that any minute you can stop them breeding purebred dogs. Or what next- ban people who breed big dogs, or small dogs, or white dogs etc. Just because one small group of peopel think its best to breed registered purebred dogs doesnt mean the rest of the world agrees with them and they are the minority.

So...master breeders are condoning puppy farms them? Or just randomly breeding as long as its within guidelines? Sure they may be housed well but they are still breeding crap, selling crap and farming crap...ifs all for profit, not for bettering the breed, staying within standed and healthtesting..crap. jmho Excuse me ? I am not condoning anything. In fact I have never said whether I think its either a good or a bad thing. I am saying we have rights and whether some people think that because some others decide they want to breed puppies and have a permit to have 50 dogs on their property is a sin or not doesnt make it O.K. to hound someone and bully them just because some think they can. If they are seen to be out in the open and under the watch of the people who have tried to stop them then at least we know where they are and what they are up to. We want them to apply for permits and do it all according to codes and regs and not do what they want without anyone knowing where they are and what they are up to. How many breeders do you think would do the right thing and put their hands up for a DA to breed dogs if they think this will happen to them?

forgot to add, these people we are talking about has a history of abuse of animals. that is why the council didn't want them, the animal people didn't want them and also the residents dont' want them either but they are all going to be lumped with these people. jsut because they are building a fancy new house mainly it is a big house they are building for themselves doesn't mean they can't abuse their animals that they will have in their care. i say to all reg breeders make sure what you sell is desexed because these farmers will go to any lengths to get dogs to breed with. they have tried to trick us into getting our dogs for years. but we only sell our dogs desexed and upon hearing that they threw an absolute fit. so these days these farmers are getting mighty desperate to make their money. If these people truly do have a history of abuse of animals why havent they been charged? Why are they still able to own ANY animals? If what you say is true then they wouldnt get past go let alone winning an appeal.

Does this help? http://artepfauves.co.uk/Analysis-of-the-Breed-Standard.php

Also - the wording is emotive. This isnt approval for 50 cages its approval for 50 kennels which comply with the mandatory code which was set up by animal welfare to tell breeders how they had to keep their breeding animals in Victoria. No breeder would have wanted to keep their dogs this way but once you own over 2 breeding dogs you are stuck with it. The minute any breeder wants to house their dogs differently the same people who are moaning about the "CAGES" come in and protest because they are not following the mandatory codes! Many registered breeders and rescue have more than this number and if you are going to howl when ever anyone is complying and agreeing to follow what is in place supposedly for best practice why on earth would any one consider doing it by the book? May as well keep 25 in your bedrooms and save all of the expense of building kennels.

it just sounds like to me that someone maybe in VCAT has a vested interest in these operations i was thinking that the other day, because time after time other councils didn't want farms in their shires and refuse to give the operators a licence so when it gets to VCAT they always over turn it - the farmers always get their licence in the end. it says that the shire in Ballan did not want any puppy farms and the residents don't want any puppy farms but still they are all forced to have this puppy farm. my own shire where i currently live says there are no puppy farms in the region as well. but looking at that and reading it i thought i bet ya there are still farms here that are ofcourse not licenced so technically under the radar keeping it quiet. That just maybe because people have a right to free enjoyment of their own property - this is a right handed down to all of us from way back in the Magna Carter signing and assuming they dont break any animal cruelty laws they have a right to breed dogs on their property. Its only a licence for 50 dogs and they are dong all they are being told to do to comply with development applications and mandatory codes - its called innocent until you do something wrong - not stop everyone doing what they want to do in case they do something wrong. The people who are protesting arent even affected by what is happening and dont even live in that shire.Do you really think that anyone is going to over turn the decisions because of this. The only outcome can be to scare anyone else of being out in the open and applying for their approvals.