Steve

Yes but problem is who decides what is a contribution to the breed in a positive way. Some for example would tell us that doing cross bred matings is contributing in a positive way, some tell us that only breeding dogs with low or no hip scores or patella scores is contributing in a positive way.Others select what they think is the best dog regardless of hip or patella scores because they think this is what is contributing in a positive way. Some will say breeding only dogs which are champions is contributing in a positive way others will say only dogs which are good at doing the work required are contributing in a positive way. Some say the breed standard matters most others say it is what matters least. Some say limiting the amount of dogs which are used for breeding is positive others say putting all dogs on main register is better. Animal rights will tell us we breed too much even when some breeds only breed a dozen or so each year australia wide.

No one other than the person involved can say what their motivation is - and that particular code is about motivation. I can have one litter with no other goal but to make back some of the money I have paid out to keep my dogs and I can have 20 litters because I believe that breeding more is better for the breed and I have greater choices to choose which ones best suited to breed from. Some breeders believe that what is best for the breed is to limit the number of dogs which can be used for breeding and protect their bloodlines which radically limits gene pools.Some believe that only champions should be bred others that only those proven to work should.Others believe that making more available for breeding and increasing the gene pool with more choices etc is what is best for the breed. Some will feel that its O.K. to sell off those they dont want to keep for breeding to pet shops - which is within their code of ethics some even bump them off but unless the person who is doing any of these things actually says that their primary goal is not for the purpose of improving the breed its a judgement based on speculation. At the end of the day it has to be about what your goal is and what risks you may face in striving for that and what you are and are not prepared to compromise on to achieve it. There are few activities that humans can be involved in where they are seen as less proficient and less expert if they are less active. In dog breeding we have now gotten to a point where breeders brag they only breed a litter every couple of years, where we take advice and make laws based on animal rights propoganda and ignorance rather than on science, experience and what is best for the dog as well as the breed. There is a hard case to be made where less and less dogs are being released into the gene pool each year Australia wide for breeding that this is doing much to improve the breed.

Hey steve what happened with your tiny maremma? I have a tiny anatolian. Smallest pup I have ever seen and the lightest birth weight. But vigorous and strong; compact size :D . I have named her Mimi She is now about 15 weeks old and still smaller than she should be but she has grown into a beautiful girl. She goes to her new home on Thursday where she will live on a property with Dorper sheep and a whole heap of other animals as she has here.

Tried that and Dog tainers can do it cheaper. I always email and get the quote in writing and they are back at me within a few hours.

Is it a myth that dogs get fat easier when they are desexed? The science seems to suggest they do. Saying that owners cause dogs to be fat post desexing isn’t really the whole story. Ovaries produce estrogen, and if you take that away from a mammal the body looks for other places to get needed estrogen from. Fat cells can produce estrogen, so when the estrogen goes the body works harder to convert calories into fat to increase estrogen levels. Fat cells don't burn calories the way muscle cells do, which causes the weight gain Testosterone helps the body to create lean muscle mass out of the calories that are taken in. Muscle cells burn more calories than fat cells do, increasing the metabolism. When levels of testosterone drop it results in the loss of this muscle. This means a lower metabolism. The lower the metabolism is, the slower the body burns calories, which causes weight gain. If you start to lower the food intake when you notice a bit of weight gain then the body can go into “famine effect” and these stress hormones signal the body to hang onto all the food that comes in – in case the body doesn’t get enough food for a long time so it starts to store calories. Fact is an extra weight gain may even lessen the results of these hormones not being present and help to protect against bone diseases, incontinence etc so don’t be too hard on yourself if your dogs put on a bit of extra weight when they are desexed. You don’t want fat dogs but it might be in their best interests to have them a bit meatier post op that they were pre op. If these hormones decrease naturally the body prepares for it and the results are not as obvious but when they are taken away in a young animal there is definitely stuff going on inside the dog which the owners have no idea of.

Banjo was a greyhound

Banjo died of bloat and as terrible as it is I thank God he waited until Gary was back to normal and more able to cope with this disaster.I truly dont know that the outcome of Gary's accident would have been as good if it happened when Gary was still in hospital.

For those of you who have been following the story of Gary and Banjo and for those who had the chance to meet Gary at last years awards evening it is with regret that today Gary lost his best mate. RIP Banjo and how very very sad for Gary. A reminder. The press release 19 March 2011 Helping people and their pets in crisis When disaster strikes – whether it be an earthquake, flood, fire or a tragic and unforseen accident – looking after human survivors are priority and often times the needs associated with their pets are overlooked. But a dedicated group of volunteers are helping to make a difference for fellow pet owners and their animals through PACERS, a national charity initiated by the Master Dog Breeders and Associates (MDBA). The organisation’s aim is to ensure the pets are receiving the best of care and their owners don’t feel overwhelmed and needing to surrender, neglect or have them suffer in any way when things get tough. “We offer pet owners a safety net if things go wrong unexpectedly, including personal hardship and natural disasters (such as the Queensland and Victoria floods),” said Julie Nelson, CEO of MDBA PACERS. “A very large part of what we do is about the pet owners in the belief that if we help and support the owners, their pets will benefit the most.” The PACERS philosophy proved true with Gary Prichard of Albury, NSW who became nearly quadriplegic following a car accident in April last year and could no longer care for his beloved five-year-old dog, Banjo. Gary suffered severe spinal damage with multiple fractures to the back and neck vertebrae and artery dissection. He initially lay flat on his back for two months in a Melbourne hospital, where he learned he might not be able to get from bed to a wheelchair without assistance. Fear for Banjo’s future But Gary was most concerned about Banjo's future, fearing he would never be able to care for him again. “Banjo had experienced a bad start in life,” said Gary. “He was handed in to the Albury pound as a puppy in such a bad condition that the vet almost put him down.” At four months old, Banjo went to Albury Dog Rescue where he was adopted by Gary and became the best of buddies. After the accident, Banjo was moved from pillar to post. Gary became particularly anxious after a well-meaning friend who was looking after his affairs suggested the best thing for Banjo would be to have him euthanised. “I wasn’t going to let this happen,” said Gary. That's when a plea for help brought Chris Lythollous, a PACERS foster carer from Albury, into his and Banjo's lives. Chris’ compassion for her fellow humans and enthusiastic attitude towards the care of dogs created a situation where Banjo became the focal point of Gary's recovery, explained Julie. “When I was in hospital in Melbourne, Chris sent me photos and e-mails about Banjo,” said Gary. “When I moved back to Albury hospital, she went out of her way to regularly visit me with Banjo during the three or more months I was there.” During this time, Gary progressed from bed to wheelchair to walking frame to crutches. Towards the end of his stay in hospital, Chris and her partner Shane took Gary and Banjo to the local off-leash park so Gary could watch Banjo play. “When I was finally able to return home, Chris first brought Banjo for day visits, then sleepovers, and it was not long before he was home for good,” said Gary. When Banjo returned home, Chris then provided various bedding items and new food and water bowls for him, while Shane helped out with several jobs around the house. Gary still gets emotional when he talks about the impact Chris has had on his life in allowing his love and care for Banjo to be able to positively impact on his recovery. “She is an inspiration,” said Gary. “She is a pure ball of positive energy and a beacon of light.” MDBA PACERS Awards And if ever Chris was to be in such desperate need, there will be PACERS and a foster carer waiting in the wings to help bring her and her animals through, said Julie. “All of our foster carers are special people who put themselves out in this way to help a fellow pet owner and our gratitude for them in doing that can’t be overstated.” Last night, Chris was presented the MDBA PACERS Award for Outstanding Service of the Year at the annual MDBA Awards, held at the Jika International in Melbourne. Humbled by the award, Chris said she did “nothing out of the ordinary” and that she owed a lot of her dedication to helping Banjo and Gary to the great support she received from the PACERS team. “I would hope that someone would support anyone in the same position and help them to keep their animals,” said Chris. PACERS services PACERS provides foster carers for animals whose owners are temporarily homeless, ill or who have suffered accidents, but it also helps out with walking or cleaning to ensure the animals stay at home if that’s the best solution. After the Queensland and Victoria floods, PACERS organised crates and cages, first aid equipment and animal feeds. The organisation also provided fencing and penning – whatever that was needed quickly to contain and keep animals safe, well and with their owners, so they had one thing less to worry about while trying to cope with the tragedy. “When people all around are grieving for their friends and family, those who are grieving for pets often have no way to verbalise how they are feeling and their loss can be trivialised by many in the community,” said Julie. “PACERS provides bereavement counselling via phone and in person for those who are suffering due to the loss of their pet. We are still getting calls via counsellors for help post Victorian bushfires." Because many people were afraid to go to work and leave their animals at home on high fire danger days, PACERS set up carers who would babysit their pets on these days between work hours. “Simple things sometimes makes a huge difference and just being able to supply a penned area and food, as well as a shoulder to cry on, makes a lot of difference,” said Julie. PACERS in need of funds Julie thanked all the businesses that support PACERS through donations of services and supplies. “With the generous help of Eukanuba we have been able to help feed thousands of cats and dogs whose owners have hit hard times and provide donations of food to over 20 private canine rescue organisations,” she said. For further information about MDBA PACERS or to donate, please contact [email protected] or 02 6927 6707. For more information For more information or media interviews, please contact: Julie Nelson CEO of MDBA Tel 02 6927 6707 Mob 0427 015 152 Email [email protected] Discover more at www.mdbapacers.org.au _______________________________

Is the vet clinic for the dogs which are in lock up - LDH only or for all of the public?

Thats really it in a nutshell and its good to remember before we race in and brand someone without being able to know all of the facts. The happiest Ive ever seen dogs is when they can dig and roll in dirt and lay in the sunshine and the idea of those concrete prisons especially to keep them in 24 hours a day must be hell for them but we have to remember that in some places that is a mandatory way of housing them. No point in complaining about dogs which come home without knowing what grass is when much of what is expected of a "kennel" is non porous floors. Sad no one has worked out that you need different facilities to house dogs which are there for breeding 365 days a year and those which are in a boarding situation or rescue.

There are just so many variables and some of the things said here make me question ifsome people really know what it is like to live as a breeder with multiple dogs. Not counting my working sheep dogs I have a dozen adult dogs here. Several oldies - way too old for breeding. I dont need to spend any time training them they are already trained. They are all well mannered and well adjusted dogs. They cant talk but they appear happy and very contented I dont need to spend more than a few minutes picking up poo twice a day as they are fed a diet which makes their poos less offensive and they only drop one or two a day in the yarded area which is 2 and a half acres. They dont live or run on concrete and most of the day they seem to want to mooch around lying in the sun They say hello to the various people - family, workmen etc who come and go here daily and just hang out with me and my family. Its comfortable, no dramas no need for massive work or concern about whether they need anything they may not be getting. They like people, they like dogs and cats and chooks. Sometimes they are penned in smaller grassed areas if we are concreting and dont want them to help us etc for short periods. Right now I have puppies around 6 weeks old 2 litters of Maremma = 17 Maremma pups and a brand new litter of 5 beagle pups still inside in the loungeroom The 17 pups and 2 bitches in the main hang out on the porch close to my kitchen door. Puppies were inside until they were 3 weeks old and they moved out onto the porch. By the time their Mums have stopped cleaning up after them they are moving out onto the grass to go to the toot so now at 6 weeks there isnt any mess for me to be cleaning up bar a bit of poop scooping. The pups are clean and so is the porch and now they move with me and follow as if Im the pied piper as I move around the yard. Feed time is 4 times per day and I feed the two bitches, two older pups [14 weeks old] and the babies at the same time in the same place with the food in baking pans so more heads can fit in to eat at once. There is no fuss, no arguments, no snarling, none getting too much none getting too little.I play with them talk to them, Trip over them pat and cuddle them several times a day. They explore a little wider afield each day and play with their Mums and each other while they are not sleeping.I noticed last night the bitches were encouraging them to move out further into the yard after dark too. But they come and go as they please and I know they cant get out of the yard area and its as safe as I can make it. They have had short spells with the sheep and take no notice of the cats. They watch through the screen door at what is going on in the kitchen and offer me words of encouragement as I prepare their food and they come in a couple at a times to supervise the household cleaning and have extra one on one. In the last week before they go home the ones destined for sheep work will see more of the sheep, the ones going to chicken farms will see more of the chickens and the ones going out as pets will get more cuddles but for me none of this is work. I dont see any of it as training or cleaning - its just a lifestyle .This morning they all wrestled in the freshly dug dirt to help me with digging my new vegie garden.Im not planting anything in it until the fence is up around it.;) I have a standout pick pup to keep and work my new lambs which is exactly what I was aiming for and the rest will do the gene pool proud. You cant manage all breeds this way and depending on where you live and how you live most people couldnt handle this breed that way plus the beagles will come and go in the house more than the Maremmas do and need different things to prepare them for how they are going to live as they get older. 17 beagle pups would be much more of a challenge and the beagle bitches arent as eager to share the work load. I wouldnt consider it. Humans and dogs are healthy , happy and contented . Everything here from the ground up inside and out has been designed for easy cleaning and living harmoniously with dogs. I know that the numbers I have is my limit - its fun, its easy and a laid back way to live and enjoy life but I do many other things and dont just have the dogs to be responsible for. Could someone who does nothing else but the dogs with the help of her hubby each day and maybe throw in a couple of kids look after 80 plus without the dogs missing out on something . I think so but so much depends on the environment and the breed and the management that Id rather not judge without all of the info. Thats all.

He works there and has 84 dogs? Regardless if he is a registered breeder or BYB or puppy farmer He must have some good $$$ to pay for ppl to clean feed, socialise the dogs etc Because looking after that many dogs doing basic care would take an 8hr day (and yes i can speak from experience after working in a facility for 2yrs) Maybe he just has a wife and kids.

I think there is a distinction between a BYB and a PF too - but it has nothing to do with quantity. IMO a BYB is someone who doesn't do the "right" thing through ignorance or through lack of understanding. IMO a PF is someone who doesn't do the "right" thing because it would cut into the profit margin. And what is "the right thing" changes dramatically through time - when I started out it was considered perfectly acceptable and correct to allow a dog to have his first mating at around 8 months (small-medium sized breed) and breed a bitch on her second heat at around 13-14 months, then again on her next heat then miss a heat (or more) These are just two things that were considered "right" then which are almost universally frowned on now. Yep problem is no one can really say why its not right now and many repo specialists think thats where many of our problems come from. Say it often enough though and obviously what is best for the species can be over ridden by animal rights who have never bred a dog

I think you have hit the nail on the head. :D I don't really think that is fair. A puppy farmer in most peoples eyes is someone who breeds large quantities of puppies without proper health/temperament screening for the purpose of making money. IMO quantity has nothing what-so-ever to do with someone being a puppy farmer. A puppy farmer is someone who's SOLE intention is to make money. If they breed one litter or a hundred is irrelevant - IMO it is the intention not the quantity. That is a valid comment and one that I would agree with generally but I do think there is a distinction between a backyard breeder which I would classify as a smaller scale breeder who is breeding just for money (and doesn't health or temperament test) and a larger scale "business" operation which breeds solely for a profit and doesn't do adequate health/temperament testing. Each is equally bad but at different scales. A larger scale operation is more likely to create "more" problems ie. more puppies dumped, more families affected etc sheerly because of the difference in scale. But you see its the same thing you cant stand back and judge a group based on what you would consider to be one thing or the other when its based on assumptions. Lots of back yard breeders have no intention of making any money - there a million reasons they breed their dogs- to let the kids see the miracle of birth, to make another one just like the last one, because they are bored and want to do it all as a hobby etc. Many people say that people who breed dogs to win a champion ship have it all wrong,or breed a working dog without caring about the way it looks is all wrong etc You have to judge each and everyone on its own merits primarily because much of this is beaten up. Now and then animal rights grab hold of someone who is breeding dogs in filthy conditions and its promoted as if its endemic to make laws and regs which restrict everyone. It is now at a point where no one stops to get all of the info before someone is branded - they breed too many, they own too many, they dont show, they dont work them, they dont feed them in pretty bowls, they dont vaccinate them every year , they dont live in poverty , etc Wait and hear and judge objectively not based on what someone else may have done or not done or someone else's goals or motivations . None of us can say what someone else's motivation is or what goals they may have in what they are doing until they tell us.

The official definition adopted by the RSPCA and government is a puppy farmer is someone who breeds their dogs in sub standard conditions - whether that be one or 1000. In my opinion it is someone who views the animals they own and breed as stock - just as any farmer does .With no care for anything much past what will bring the most profit and with no consideration as to what my come for the future for the puppies. This means you breed em for a perod of time and move em out as their litter sizes drop or when they stop paying their keep. It means you dont need to be concerned about what may show up in thepup after it has gone home as far as health or temperament is concerned as your responsibility ends at the sale. This guy may well be doing that - however tagging people with derogatory terms such as puppy farmer has become so common place that people dont take the time to gather more info before they tag someone and ruin their lives and reputation. Not all commercial breeders view their animals as stock and it is possible to make money and genuinely care for the animals you own - again much depends on breed and several other things. I know my limits and what is condusive to me being able to cope with and give the best care to my animals. 84 for me isnt anywhere near consideration or possible but I worked in a kennel in Sydney some 30 plus years ago where their whole lives were dogs - breeding and showing and not one of those dogs missed anything nor did any puppy go home without the breeder caring for where it went and what was happening in their lines.

Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming. Actually No I dont and call me mischievious etc but you had better spell it out for me - if the comments here about dogs being reared in households etc are not indicative of them needing to be inside with the families then what exactly is it that you mean by what a pup needs to be well socialised to be able to live happily ever after? Some commercial breeders do a pretty good job - I know that too.

You have added 'training' to the mix, as in management because of behavioral tendencies. Socialisation simply means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles. Nothing more, nothing less. Applies to all dogs, if they are to become well-socialised. In that respect, the military puppies are raised to do exactly that. Bred from mothers who've been well socialised themselves, handled by humans from birth & introduced to a safe but 'regular environment with all its 'strangers', sights & sounds & early challenges like steps & stairs. There's a critical window period for that socialisation which is learning literally hard-wired into the developing brain. I've quoted the UQ research on that point many times on DOL. Around 13 or 14 weeks, the puppies are sent out to be fostered by ordinary people in ordinary homes, and share all aspects of a dog's life with them (including being left home alone while they go to work & school). A co-ordinator advises on basic 'good manners' learning.....which all dogs need. After the fostering months, the puppies are returned to the Dog Unit to begin the training-management specific for their military service. But they take with them, ease with being alongside humans and confidence in fronting the environment. Socialisation's been hard-wired thanks to learning at the critical develpmental stages. Incidentally, the dogs I've got as adults from registered breeders, have been raised according to the same principles. It's why I went to those breeders & why I direct others to them. Back to the OP. My question was how would the bloke with the 84 dogs manage to do the same. And remains the same. No I havent added training into the mix any more than any form of socialisation would have training in the mix and they are not treated differently because of their behavioural tendencies at all but rather because of what is expected of them when they go to their new homes. If socialisation means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles then what term is used when puppies are being socialised with each other and other dogs? Think this through Mita are we talking about what a breeder needs to do with their puppies from birth to 8 weeks or are we talking about what the person who owns the pup or who is in control of the pup between 8 weeks and 14 weeks needs to do ? There is a huge difference as those people are doing what new owners are expected to do because our puppies are in new homes by the time they should be thinking about too many steps and stairs etc.

Julie I respectfully disagree - I suspect from your comments you haven't read the whole thread so that might be a good idea... This thread is about a man with 84 dogs who works in a pet shop and not one poster has said thats not a lot or has said that is something they think is reasonable. There has been a lot of bellowing about assumptions, generalisations and not enough information however IMO and experience I have never seen or heard of a dog farm with this many dogs which socialises their puppies properly. In fact if what you say is true is true and different breeds need different management then they are even worse than I thought and thank you for supporting my argument further. Big numbers of dogs are usually characteristic of dog farms, commercial dog farmers and badly socialised dogs so they usually go hand in hand. Various posters, me included have agreed that bad management is not related to numbers - both can be 'mucked up'. But there is a point where good socialisation is not possible without significant investment in staff - and IMO 84 is well above it. No I have read the whole thread but I respectfully dont agree that we are seeing the term socialised the same. Studies and things you and I have been exposed to make us believe that dogs definitely need to be socialised but socialised until they are about 7 weeks to me means in the main they need to be socialised with their Mum's and litter mates. As far as the adults are concerned so very much depends on breed and Im not denying where they live and how they live is a concern but thats not to say someone couldnt get it right and Im reluctant to bag anyone out based on such a small amount of info - thats all.

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are. Same old same old everyone is an expert. Mita was talking about military dogs and I think perhaps that there is some mix up between what puppies need from 7 or 8 weeks up and what they need prior to that. No one is denying they need to be socialised and that dogs need to be loved and well cared for but not all dogs need to be sleeping inside with humans to be well socialised and happy or to have the best chance at living happily ever after. I move my Maremma babies out into the cold when they are 21 days old and I deliberately dont have them inside and in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day because thats not what is best for them to prepare them for life after my place . They are still close to the house and Im tripping over the little rats everywhere I go as soon as I step outside. Puppies go home at 8 weeks and in all honesty what needs to happen prior to 7 weeks is more important to have them taught about socialisation with other dogs and from other dogs - their Mum. I get what you guys are saying and this breeder in the OP may be really rotten but you cant judge a breeder by how many they have and you have to understand that in some breeds less human contact isnt the end of the world until they get to about 7 weeks anyway.

Tell me, how are those military dogs socialised? What is there about that socialisation would not be the same for other breeds? There's a difference between 'expert' and 'expertise'. There's a body of knowledge, derived from research, about socialisation of dogs. Putting that into practice is 'expertise'/ Correct and a breeder should socialise their puppies which is best suited to their breed according to their experience as well as their expertise which is obtained by learning from various sources and not only from one or two studies which couldnt take into account all of the variables. I have two vastly different breeds and I promise you that requires two vastly different management plans to ensure that they get the best chance at fitting seamlessly into their new household. There is a body of knowledge about everything Mita and part of it all is sorting out what is relavant to what you need to do to get the best results not just falling on a couple and taking them as gospel for your breed or your circumstances. You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

Another question. In following state-of-the-art knowledge, the dogs for military service are socialised in households & the accompanying lifestyles (whatever they happen to be). Why would that be so? State of the art knowledge? When is it these dogs are moved into households and socialised - what age ? Where is this study you are referring to ?

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are. Same old same old everyone is an expert.

Bloody hell I wish someone would turn up to donate that kind of money to Pacers here - we could prevent so many of them from ending up in places like the LDH with those kind of funds.

Finally we are up to being able to be sending it off to be printed. Jaxx'sbuddy has saved us and been able to get it done but its been a huge job for her with no experience in the programs used or formats etc so it should only be a couple of weeks now before its here and can be posted out. We never expected to have to be involved in this part of it all and we thought it was all done and dusted when the announcement was made to pay the money in so its been huge and very stressful. Some lessons learned here but the offer for refund still stands for anyone tired of waiting.

I agree with this.....I'd imagine 84 dogs to be a full time job. I would be a bit worried. Guys sometimes have wives and family.