Steve

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I was talking to everyone who have made this a personal attack on people who have stated their opinion rather than discussing the subject.

Would probably be best if you played the ball and not the man or the umpire is sure to call a fowl and send you off.

Breed standard http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/ALabradoodleBreedStandard.html

When Gary got up and told his story I cried and Id heard it over and over and had been involved in the thing as it was unfolding. It still got me and there wouldnt have been many dry eyes in the house. Caroline has done a great job too in reporting it.

Where did I say that I was being asked to join another organisation and turn against the ANKC? I didn't. I've been in dogs a very long time and I guess you could say that I know the dog world inside out, but there are plenty of people on this forum who are new to dogs, know very little and are easily influenced, especially by someone like you who obviously has vast experience and who writes very informative and authoritative posts, therefore anything you post is going to be be taken as gospel by many people who visit this forum. You and a number of others constantly denigrate the ANKC and give the impression that it's an obsolete organisation good for nothing but registering dogs and unfortunately many new members are simply accepting these comments. This is what I object to, I don't agree with the MDBA, but you don't see me on here running it down or casting aspersions on its integrity, in fact I usually make an effort to stay out of any discussions involving the MDBA (but not today). I don't care how you promote the MDBA, but I do object to you constantly knocking the ANKC and sometimes ANKC registered breeders as a way to demonstrate the superiority of the your new organisation and its members and I must admit that I'm surprised that someone like you, a director of a supposedly elite organisation, considers it perfectly acceptable to do so. Edited to add that this thread has gone way off topic, my apologies to the OP, I won't be posting again in this thread. I will also bow out of this topic, however I still say that censoring what can be spoken of is not condusive to informed opinions which is very clearly demonstrated here.

Steve I don't care what you choose to discuss on Dogzonline and I have nothing against the development of new breeds providing proper procedures are followed, what I object to are the constant derogatory comments about the ANKC. You speak in a previous post about 'playing the man', but I notice that you and a few others don't miss an opportunity to (might as well stick with the football analogies) 'put the boot in' to the ANKC. I had nothing against the MDBA until you made a decision to alter breed standards on the say so of just five people involved with each breed. I just couldn't believe that you would have the presumption to do such a thing, ok you've been involved with dogs for a long time, but so have I, maybe even longer than you, and I certainly wouldn't make such a suggestion. Personally I don't see the point of the MDBA, sure you can set yourself up as some elite registry, but unless you physically check everyone who applies to join you are going have bad breeders infiltrate your organisation simply because they can then advertise themselves as members and perhaps increase their chances of selling puppies. You talk about conducting 'shows' which will be nothing like ANKC shows and various other events, but you still haven't given any indication as to what these 'shows' and other events will entail. Your pedigrees will never be accepted by any of the major kennel clubs around the world (I don't count the UKC and the Continental Kennel Club and all the other organisations in the U.S. who will register just about anything as major kennel clubs), so apart from being able to say that "I'm a member of the MDBA which automatically makes me squeaky clean and 100% ethical" and having the facility to include health testing results on pedigrees you have nothing to offer to someone like me. That's not to say that lots of people don't think exactly the opposite and think that the MDBA has plenty to offer, that's their prerogative, I've nothing against that either. I have absolutely nothing against you Steve, you seem like a very nice person and you have a comprehensive knowledge of all things dog even if I don't always agree with everything you say. However even though I'm sure that you have the best interests of dogs at heart, you can't deny that the MDBA is also about making a profit, and I'm sure that enrolling dogs in a new registry is far more profitable than enrolling new members and attempting to sell various dog related courses. I am not trying to be offensive here, I'm simply stating a fact, you and your co-director have spent a lot of money getting the MDBA up and running and obviously you are wanting to get that money back and make enough to money out of it on an ongoing basis to make a living, that's only sensible. Anyway these are my thoughts on the subject, many won't agree with me and that's fine. I will stand behind the ANKC as I think they are the best bet for purebred dogs and others will join the MDBA and the dog world will become even more divided than it is now. It will be interesting to see what happens. Miranda when ever if ever there is one single solitary word changed in any breed standard I will consider you have a legitimate argument. The opportunity for me to explain what we will do any futher here on this fiorum has been taken from me.If I had the opportunity to be able to go into detail perhaps you would see your impressions are way off base and if you would like me to inform you privately Im happy to do so. Each time I see these kind of accusations made about me Im amazed that anyone could have read my posts all these years and believe I would be a party to any of the crap. To register puppies on our registry is free - we only charge for certificate issues if they are needed so jibes about how the registry was started to make money and not because we felt it was the best thing for the purebred dog world is crap. Every single one of our breeder members are ANKC members and there has been no desire on our part or there's for them not to remain registered breeders with the ANKC. We hoped we could work with them and provide a supplimentary service and thank God some peopel have listened and gotten that. Your assumptions on what its all about are way off track.

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world? It's not that Clyde, it's the constant little digs about the ANKC that get to me and the frequent references to the MDBA and its supposed superiority. I am certainly not saying that the ANKC is perfect, far from it, but I think we should be getting behind them and initiating change, not joining some other organisation that will, in time, be beset with exactly the same problems as the much maligned ANKC. Who is asking you to join another organisation ? Who is asking you to turn against the ANKC ? The reference to the MDBA wasnt about superiority it was explaining that being able to discuss controversial issues has led to open discussion and education.It was about the fact that back in 2001 when some people here were discussing a new group - not the MDBA at that time that some people came in and went nuts - tried to have it shut up and some even had threats made against them. The thread on the mini dals was pretty hot too. We were able to continue with the discussion. How can anyone get behind the ANKC and initiate change when they wont even speak about what is going on in the real world and what people may be doing with new breed development? But this isnt about the ANKC changing anyway - they have a perfectly good system in place where people can work for 15 years on developing a breed and then go to them and apply for breed recognition - I dont want to see that changed. I just want to be able to talk about it without being censored. For the record there are no breeders of labradoodles in the MDBA and it is very unlikely there ever will be.

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future. I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry. Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it. I do have my own forum where all of this can be discussed its is called the MDBA forum [close enough] and that doesnt mean I cant enter and be involved with a controversial issue here or on any other forum and give my opinion does it? Im not breaching forum rules - Im not promoting cross breeding or designer dogs in fact Im very much against them. I am also saying that a lab x poodle is a mutt however, that seems to have gone over your head. No where in this thread have I said the ANKC is an outdated organisation,nor have I advocated for a change in breed standards or encouraged anyone to begin a new breed and Im happy to converse with people who have a different opinion to me because Im happy to stand corrected if Im proven wrong. You can still support the ANKC and look reasonably at the situation without having to shut down - but worse being on the attack to shut anyone else down who sees it a little differently. There's nothing new in what the breeders who are working toward breed development are doing than anything thats been done for hundreds of years - its not anti ANKC or anti purebred. If and when they have fit the criteria they may even apply to be recognised by the ANKC and be seen to be breeding an ANKC recognised breed. But are we to be banned from speaking of any new breed in development ? If so for how long ? Do we have to wait until they are 15 years down the track and accepted as an ANKC breed before its O.K. to talk about it here?

I didn't realize there was a direct correlation between the number of posts and anything at all really. This is where the personal denigration starts is it? All of you who stated you would have euthanised The Ark's cerebral palsy puppy have only served to prove his/her point. When you breed puppies, you are either going to keep them or sell them as show quality, rehome them as pets, or keep them as pets. In this case you are all agreeing it is not show quality, and you can't rehome it as a pet, and for whatever reason you choose not to keep it as a pet, so you would euthanise. So like The Ark said, breeders would have put this puppy to sleep. Get off your high horses. This is all about you getting offended by someone saying you would have done exactly what you said yourself you would have done. Maybe if The Ark had said some instead of most there would have been less offense taken, but I certainly haven't seen a majority of people here arguing they also would have kept that dog, seems the ones on the attack are the ones whose decision would have been to put it down. No its not about for what ever reason - its about the dog suffering.

Fru Fru I wouldnt feel differently if I owned a poodle. I am against first cross dogs no matter what breed they are using. Im just not prepared to say that no one has a right to have a go at producing a new breed and it makes little difference as to how you or I feel about it. The fact is that it happens now and then and when it does we need to assess it based on the facts and not on anything else. I personally would have said - here's a beagle and we dont need any other medium sized hunting dogs but a whole bunch of them - Harriers, hamilton stoves and half a dozen more are there. Ive no idea why they they did that but they did and they will continue to develop new breeds. When they are doing that and they are trying their hardest to get it right by testing their breeding dogs and profiling their pedigrees, screening their homes and being there if something goes wrong then how do we or anyone have the right to not only beat the hell out of them for having a go but going as far as banning it from being spoken of. Again I will say this is far far removed from discussing a designer dog - an F1 first cross. By now all of these generations on none of these breeders will be using poodles or labs. Stop just shutting down - look at it for what it is and then if you find something you dont agree with in what they are doing by all means yell about it because its making dogs suffer,making it difficult to live with them etc but stop making the assumption they are still using your breed or anyone else's because by now they are using their own. And all of this could be avoided if they hadnt of kept the stupid name.

http://www.mdba.net.au/home/62-helping-peo...-in-crisis.html 20 March 2011 Helping people and their pets in crisis When disaster strikes – whether it be an earthquake, flood, fire or a tragic and unforseen accident – looking after human survivors are priority and often times the needs associated with their pets are overlooked. But a dedicated group of volunteers are helping to make a difference for fellow pet owners and their animals through PACERS, a national charity initiated by the Master Dog Breeders and Associates (MDBA). The organisation’s aim is to ensure the pets are receiving the best of care and their owners don’t feel overwhelmed and needing to surrender, neglect or have them suffer in any way when things get tough. “We offer pet owners a safety net if things go wrong unexpectedly, including personal hardship and natural disasters (such as the Queensland and Victoria floods),” said Julie Nelson, CEO of MDBA PACERS. “A very large part of what we do is about the pet owners in the belief that if we help and support the owners, their pets will benefit the most.” The PACERS philosophy proved true with Gary Prichard of Albury, NSW who became nearly quadriplegic following a car accident in April last year and could no longer care for his beloved five-year-old dog, Banjo. Gary suffered severe spinal damage with multiple fractures to the back and neck vertebrae and artery dissection. He initially lay flat on his back for two months in a Melbourne hospital, where he learned he might not be able to get from bed to a wheelchair without assistance. Fear for Banjo’s future But Gary was most concerned about Banjo's future, fearing he would never be able to care for him again. “Banjo had experienced a bad start in life,” said Gary. “He was handed in to the Albury pound as a puppy in such a bad condition that the vet almost put him down.” At four months old, Banjo went to Albury Dog Rescue where he was adopted by Gary and became the best of buddies. After the accident, Banjo was moved from pillar to post. Gary became particularly anxious after a well-meaning friend who was looking after his affairs suggested the best thing for Banjo would be to have him euthanised. “I wasn’t going to let this happen,” said Gary. That's when a plea for help brought Chris Lythollous, a PACERS foster carer from Albury, into his and Banjo's lives. Chris’ compassion for her fellow humans and enthusiastic attitude towards the care of dogs created a situation where Banjo became the focal point of Gary's recovery, explained Julie. “When I was in hospital in Melbourne, Chris sent me photos and e-mails about Banjo,” said Gary. “When I moved back to Albury hospital, she went out of her way to regularly visit me with Banjo during the three or more months I was there.” During this time, Gary progressed from bed to wheelchair to walking frame to crutches. Towards the end of his stay in hospital, Chris and her partner Shane took Gary and Banjo to the local off-leash park so Gary could watch Banjo play. “When I was finally able to return home, Chris first brought Banjo for day visits, then sleepovers, and it was not long before he was home for good,” said Gary. When Banjo returned home, Chris then provided various bedding items and new food and water bowls for him, while Shane helped out with several jobs around the house. Gary still gets emotional when he talks about the impact Chris has had on his life in allowing his love and care for Banjo to be able to positively impact on his recovery. “She is an inspiration,” said Gary. “She is a pure ball of positive energy and a beacon of light.” PACERS Outstanding Service of the Year Award And if ever Chris was to be in such desperate need, there will be PACERS and a foster carer waiting in the wings to help bring her and her animals through, said Julie. “All of our foster carers are special people who put themselves out in this way to help a fellow pet owner and our gratitude for them in doing that can’t be overstated.” On Friday night, Chris was presented the MDBA PACERS Award for Outstanding Service of the Year at the annual MDBA Awards, held at the Jika International in Melbourne. Presenting the award was PACERS National Marketing Manager Marshal Nelson. Humbled by the award, Chris said she did “nothing out of the ordinary” and that she owed a lot of her dedication to helping Banjo and Gary to the great support she received from the PACERS team. “I would hope that someone would support anyone in the same position and help them to keep their animals,” said Chris. PACERS services PACERS provides foster carers for animals whose owners are temporarily homeless, ill or who have suffered accidents, but it also helps out with walking or cleaning to ensure the animals stay at home if that’s the best solution. After the Queensland and Victoria floods, PACERS organised crates and cages, first aid equipment and animal feeds. The organisation also provided fencing and penning – whatever that was needed quickly to contain and keep animals safe, well and with their owners, so they had one thing less to worry about while trying to cope with the tragedy. “When people all around are grieving for their friends and family, those who are grieving for pets often have no way to verbalise how they are feeling and their loss can be trivialised by many in the community,” said Julie. “PACERS provides bereavement counselling via phone and in person for those who are suffering due to the loss of their pet. We are still getting calls via counsellors for help post Victorian bushfires." Because many people were afraid to go to work and leave their animals at home on high fire danger days, PACERS set up carers who would babysit their pets on these days between work hours. “Simple things sometimes makes a huge difference and just being able to supply a penned area and food, as well as a shoulder to cry on, makes a lot of difference,” said Julie. PACERS in need of funds Julie thanked all the businesses that support PACERS through donations of services and supplies. “With the generous help of Eukanuba we have been able to help feed thousands of cats and dogs whose owners have hit hard times and provide donations of food to over 20 private canine rescue organisations,” she said. But PACERS is in need of additional ongoing funds in order to continue providing assistance to pet owners and their companion animals around Australia. “Much of the services and supplies are donated, but we also need cash flow to be able to cover vet bills and various other expenses which are inherent in what we do,” said Julie. For further information about MDBA PACERS or to donate, please contact [email protected] or 02 6927 6707 For more information or media interviews, please contact: Julie Nelson CEO of MDBA Tel 02 6927 6707 Mob 0427 015 152 Email [email protected] Discover more at www.mdbapacers.org.au _______________________________ Press Release by Caroline Zambrano Freelance Pet Editor/Writer Sydney, Australia

Ive been here a long time and over the years there have been lots of discussions on new breed development. I remember a great one on mini dalmatians about when I first started here. I belong to this forum because I learn about dogs, because I can test my own perspectives and opinions and listen to others, where I can debate and grow and consider opinion outside of where Im sitting. This is a dogzonline forum - Australia's purebreed dog forum not the ANKC forum. If we are only ever able to have an open discussion about dogs or breeds which have been accepted onto one purebred registry it sure does restrict us in how we can learn and teach. While ever topics like this are seen to be out of bounds it ensures that people who participate in this forum are deluded into thinking that because they belong to one group and own dogs which are only registered in one registry that they are their dogs are superior and the practices of those who are a part of their own group dont need to be made aware of the true lay of the land past their own vision. You have ample opportunity to use the forum as you have said you want to use it - choices as to which topics you go into or participate in - why is it necessary to prevent debate and interaction between those of us who want to be exposed to and participate in something outside your area of interest? One of the great things for me about this forum has always been the potential for learning.Ive been pushed and challenged which has made me go and do more research and listen to other perspectives.Some times its made me come back and say I was wrong and other times its made me more determined that I am not. I belong to this forum because dogs are my life and my preference is for purebred dogs not because I only want to engage in talking about how bloody wonderful the ANKC is ,how dogs which are recognised on their registry are the only purebreds in existence and be censored in anything which challenges the staus quo or mythology surrounding the purebred dog world. Its become a shout where we are being told we cant speak about really important issues which will affect every one of us if they dont already. Dont say that - its breeder bashing, dont say that - its purebred dog bashing, dont say that its designer dog discussion ,dont consider the potential legitimacy of another registry, dont consider the potential for new breed development,dont admit that there are issues in the ANKC or the purebred dog world. Dont allow us to push the boundaries , test the waters, challenge our own and others way of operating or thinking.Thats not why Ive been here so long and played in this playground. In the first week I joined this forum I particpated in a thread which was already underway based on the concept of starting a new purebred dog group. In fact back then Troy was even offering a donation to get it started. It instigated the beginning of and development of the MDBA and Pacers, in fact in the first few months of the inception of the MDBA Troy was even a member of the original board and had to withdraw when it became so demanding. In all honesty Im a bit over the whole trend which tells us that unless we follow like a sheep and never test the boundaries and discuss new or different ideas and issues that we have to be gagged. Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC. :rolleyes:

Well said Steve. Having worked with and trained many of these dogs, I am yet to see a bad one...temperament wise! They are very much a lovely natured dog and exceptionally easy to train. I do hope they succeed in becoming a recognised breed. After all, isn't that how all the pure breeds of today started out :rolleyes: No. Some breeds, yes, but not all. A lot of purebreds came about through selective breeding from a "type" of dog, not from crossing already recognised breeds. True but mixed in their breeding program is a mix with other dogs of various types. Because of the name people assume they have only used poodle and lab but that isnt necessarily true - they have used various other breeds including wheatens to develop a consistent type. If I were developing a new breed in the current political climate I would hesitate very much in even considering having it accepted or recognised by the ANKC. Why put your breed and yourself into the pot to be beaten up if you dont have to. Again I say the problem is that when someone says ladradoodle it could mean a first cross lab x poodle which is not consistent or predictible - example a lab cross poodle has equal chance of having one of 69 different coat combinations. They also have equal or higher than average hip issues and allergy issues - there is a huge difference between that and dogs which do breed true to a standard , which are predictible and which have less incidence of disease than most other breeds. No one who is working on breed development is making money out of breeding dogs - its a hard slog,takes 15 or so years out of your life and any money in regardless of how much each pup goes for will go back into what they are doing. First cross labrodoodles are produced by commercial pet breeders and touted as being healthier when they are not - completely different. This is not a discussion about designer dogs any more than it would be if we were discussing mini foxies. Its still the name for me.

Smart Kid.

O.K. Whew we made it back home - though I have to admit I slept all the way. Felt like I hadnt stopped talking for a week. You guys are awesome. I get so nervous each year before I take the stage and when I look around and see your faces all is well. You're right every year is bigger and better and Brisbane is already shaping up to be huge. Everyone was fantastic - great company and all fell into place, we had a great team pulling it together and just plain great fun with an opportunity to dress up and strutt your stuff. Back to work tomorrow. If Brisbane is going to be as big and spectacular as we're hoping there isn't a minute to loose. It really will be putting on the ritz. The craft fair was cancelled due to unforseen issues but the things people donated are going up in the pacers shop now Also we presented Troy with the dogz community quilt which was made for Jed and he will ensure she gets it for us. We had that displayed in the foyer all night and every one was blown away by the effort and good will - not to mention the craftsmanship demonstrated in it. Thanks everyone Julie

The Australian Labradoodle Association is doing great stuff to ensure they are only breeding healthy dogs and there are some people who are working toward recognition. Just because the ANKC dont accept onto their registry doesnt mean it isnt a purebred. Problem is the term labradoodle is used to describe a first cross dog with one parent a poodle and one parent a lab - a mongrel and its also used to describe a dog which is breeding consistently to a standard and is 10 or so generations into the breed development work. I see nothing wrong with anyone working toward making a new breed - predictible and consistent - however, while ever they refuse to change the name they have no hope in my opinion in ever getting recognition for or acceptance of their dogs as a breed.

Yes ! - Lots of us are arriving Tomorrow.

Nup I cant for this one as Ive got another job to do while its happening but I will find someone very speshul for you to accept on your behalf. Good Luck. Julie

I will bring the ones with me for the people who have ordered and will be attending - there isnt a chance they will get to you by mail before then They will be on the welcome table waiting for you to pick them up. Julie

Please anyone who has been nominated who will not be attending try to get someone who will be there to accept your awards. No more time to muck around we need to know this now so we can tidy up the running sheet. Good luck to everyone ! Each and everyone of you have much to be proud of for the contribution you have made to the dogs you have come into contact with and for many of you the differences you have made for all dogs in general. Anyone who cant attend the awards but will be in the area over the week end - call into the Jika and say hello or meet up with us for coffee Sunday. Julie

Just picked these up yesterday from the printer - beautiful ! Will post them out as soon as I can - cant today have to beat up the trophy people who cant spell and have some re done.

That is a point I would like to discuss. The very saddest thing about a person or an animal dying, is the grieving by the living who loved that person or animal. I believe the ones who have died do not suffer in death. Those who grieve do suffer, the more that one surrenders to love that person or animal, the deeper the grief. The time to put an animal to sleep is any time after it is known that suffering will soon be inevitable. We have quite a few experienced vet nurses posting here, and their professional opinion is that these pups will suffer. I know they will suffer, because I have a good basic knowledge of canine physiology and psychology. Experienced breeders that know a lot about dogs know the pups will suffer. But to the average dog owner, they just look like a happy, healthy pups with a bit missing. I disagree about the assumption or belief the dogs will suffer or even be made to suffer. I understand that people can become blinded by emotions when their dog is suffering and they choose to prolong the life of the animal. We do not know the strength or weaknesses of any future owners of these dogs though. Why is it assumed they would allow the dogs to suffer? We are also assuming that the dogs will experience physical pain that will cause them to suffer in the future because of their deformity. I am sure there will be instances of pain or discomfort, but I am not sure that this pain and discomfort would be too much greater than a dog with an atopic allergy, or fleas, or dry eye or any other health issue related to dogs. I believe the size of these deformed dogs is also relevant. If the dogs were a larger breed, it would be a different scenario. On the other hand, do we know they won't be? Do we? (re: bolded part). Do you? Does anyone? Unless you have experienced this exact thing, how could you know? You can project on what may occur if you have the knowledge and understanding of the skeletal system and by this, I would think that the knowledge would have to be detailed to be able to try to project, but no-one knows in all reality what will happen precisely. I find this statement somewhat disturbing and perhaps I am reading it wrongly. You are assuming that I perhaps unintentionally or intentionally overlook some issues, or that my re-homing practices may be somewhat altered because of demand? That the needs of the dog are not seen as acutely because of the demand? I look at re-homing any dog, be it a Pug or a Poodle, with the same eyes. The needs of the dog are foremost. The home I am looking for is one that caters to that dog. One that caters to the dog's emotional and physical needs both present and future, regardless of how demanding those needs are or are not. Yes, these little dogs that are the subject of this thread should have been culled at birth. But they're alive. They're happy. They're receiving professional care. As an endnote: The 'bleeding hearts' comments irk me no end steve. The comment is made purely in a derogatory sense and those that say it, know this. It is rude and it is wrong to use such terminology. It is no better than using the phrase 'tree hugger' to label someone who cares for the environment. It is derogatory and I would love for it not to be used because it creates a situation where people who defend their positions on keeping animals alive feel they are under attack. I realise it wasn't aimed at me in this instance though, and I truly doubt anyone could consider me a 'bleeding heart'. Yes when I use the term bleeding heart it is derogatory and you are right I do know this. It is no more rude or wrong to use the terminology to describe an ill placed desire to save everything with a heart beat than it is to use the terminology of any other descriptive word which may conjure up negative behaviours. I dont use the term blleding heart to describe someone who is rescuing dogs I only use it to describe those who have gone over board just the same as I wouldnt use the term tree hugger about someone who cares for the environment until they showed me they were idiots and that they have in my opinion taken the whole thing way too far. People who keep their animals alive for their own benefit be that to get pity and gather donations or for their own needs and who are not capable of seeing how the decisions they make are not best for the animal need to feel they are under attack and re assess their emotions just as any one who is making any decision which makes an animal suffer should be.

Look there is a difference between someone seeing a dog like this and feeling pity for it and deciding to be in a position where they want to give it a life and someone who is responsible for that life as they hold the balance in their hands as it is born. What is best for the dog? As a breeder or a rescue person who is there on the spot as they take their first breath its got to be about that and human emotional crap cant be allowed to override that. Its part of the responsibility of what we do. It makes humans feel warm and snuggly to "save" or work to have a dog with special needs linger on - dosing them with meds, cleaning up after them, stroking them, manipulating their lives around them but that doesnt make it right for the dog. The dog exists to provide the human with feelings of being needed more and depended on not because it is getting any more out of life than surviving another day. People who intervene to rear animals with these types of issues prey on that and its truly disgusting. Those stories like where the RSPCA spend a mint and allow a bloody cat which has 3rd degree burns all over because some bastard set it alight on a train station suffer and suffer for months make me sick and if people cant see that is not in the animal's best interests then there is a definite need to have laws to prevent it. If I am diagnosed with an incurable disease which will make me linger on my choice would be to linger less and not be a burden on the people who love me - we watch people suffer like this because we have no choice why on earth would we do it to a dog if it were not for our own gratification? Given the choice what do you think the dog would do for itself? Simply go to sleep peacefully or take the option of a pitiful existance where humans get to say how wonderful they are because they think its O.K. to watch it exist - dependent and suffering, waking up every day to face drugs and pain to get to eat and wee. This bleeding heart crap which puts human emotion over what is best for the dog almost makes me see the point peta make when they rattle on about animals being used for human gratification.

Im not advocating bumping them off now. But humans shouldnt have interferred and kept them alive. When you see something like that being born you have three choices. Let it try to survive and watch it die a slow death, gently and quietly put it to sleep or interfer and do what these idiots did. Now they are older and entities that's a completely different set of choices which the person responsible shouldnt have introduced.