Steve

O.K. Desperate now - we really need to find a foster carer for the cat.

Because some dog owners are idiots and just like some parents take their kids out and no one can stand to be in their company its the same with some dog owners. Your dog is cute - it wont bite or bound all through someone's picnic when you run on the beach with it - it stays beside you and doesnt bother anyone. But 10 others run on the beach with their dog and it ruins my day. It craps and you leave it there, where my kids get to walk in it with bare feet. It runs where ever it wants , races up to and knocks over my kid makes me worry about the kid's safety. Your dog is great it comes with you to a cafe and sleeps at your feet under your table. But 10 others let their dog move around and piddle on table legs. Sniff in my lap and threaten to steal my dinner. Your dog walks with out a problem off leash but I cant walk around the neighbourhood without being threatened ,my dog attacked and feel unsafe because dogs off leash run wild. Even some people who visit this forum and believe they are great dog owners cant see that their dogs are horrible for others to have to cope with when they take em out. Those of you who have have met up with people from dogz with their dogs in a social setting havent all had a good experience because some others dont have any brains when it comes to understanding the need for basic good manners and concern for everyone else who uses a public place's rights. 3 issues - one that dog owners arent all good dog owners and those who love their dogs , keep em inside , spoil em rotten and cant see how they impact on others when they take em out are capable of getting it wrong as well as someone who keeps their dog in a back yard rather than inside on satin pillows. Two that rather than enforce laws which existed or exist when those people who are idiots muck it up, rather than making them get real and punish them for what they do they make more and more restrictive laws. Three - that there is no distinction between a responsible dog owner and one who is not - MDBA responsible pet owner members excluded - so we all have to live under laws which try to cover it - in case someone is an idiot. In case you are an idiot and you get on a bus and let your dog jump up on my new designer business suit and put dog hair all over it and make me look bad for my job interview - everyone stays off the bus if they have their dog with them. In case you are an idiot and your dog craps on the beach and skittles my kids every one with a dog stays off the beach.

Looks like we will see you there with your mate Bertie - well done. Cheap as chips. :D

In Queensland the CC cheered that ammendment 63a gave a definition of breed recognition. Either ANKC papers or a certificate from a vet. Surely anything that doesnt have ANKC papers or doesnt have a certificate from a vet to say what the breed is cannot be identified as being a dog of a particular breed. All dogs NSW had to do was say if it has our papers its not a pit bull but instead they are saying they can identify a breed by looking at it and papers dont count - seems to undo any cheering from queensland and goes against all they stand for - identification via a stud book.

Why they are doing it is open to speculation - doesnt really matter in the big scheme of things because the end result is that they are participating in it which in effect gives their tick on the concept that you can judge a dog by breed.Sure they are judging it based on how it looks not necessarily on how it behaves but I would rather have seen them say we dont agree with BSL and its not our business because they are not our dogs or our member's dogs. No dog in their system can be judged without the basic start point - registered papers which have been accepted on their own registry. For them the proof of a dog's parentage is in the papers. As a dogs NSW member I am restricted by rules and regs and codes about what I can and cannot do with my dogs NSW papered dogs but I can do anything I want with any dog I own which is not papered - why? Because their only interest lies in those animals which are registered on their stud registry. Yet they have put their hand up to judge dogs without papers which in reality could have any mix in their parentage and define it as a breed even though for them the breed does not exist because they dont recognise them even if they have registered pedigrees as valid proof of parentage. The argument that we would rather they did it than the RSPCA isnt doing it for me either. However, once again the deed is done and at a guess Id say most Dogs NSW members will accept that what is being done is in their dog's , their breed's and their own best interest. Maybe it is - but its hard to understand why simply saying its not our business - they are not ours and we know nothing about them would not have served them just as well. Hope they have good insurance.

Didnt think of that - its one but if you win and want a second at the same price to bring a mate you can have a second.

O.K. We have a couple of tickets left for Troy's table at the awards. The funds from the sale of these ones are being donated to Pacers by Troy. So ticket number 1 is now up for grabs. Sorry we will close it off 8/3/11 at 8 pm

So why the hell are they in there at all ? They dont recognise a pitty as a breed yet they can identify it and teach others how to identify it as a breed. Not to help their own members and their own members dogs. Shameful. Steve I don't disagree with you but I can't see how you are going to get them to change and fight for a non recognosied breed when the owners of that breed give them no support. Maybe someone like the MDBA is the body to lead the fight. Im not asking for them to fight for pits Im saying why are they involved in this at all. Its not their dogs, their members or one of their breeds. But their response and participation in this is detrimental and gives weight to the whole crap shoot. Under no condition would I ever expect them to fight for a breed that isnt one of their own so why are they in there teaching people how to identify a dog which they are not in any way shape or form involved in? It shouldn't be necessary to identify a bloody dog by breed in order to judge whether its able to do XYZ or live or be treated as if it were any other dog and thats the message that should be out there - not we will look after our own by identifying thise which are not our own.When their own can only be a dog with papers anyway.

Why not tell the truth - that no one can tell what a dog is unless they have the parents DNA. They wont even judge another purebred against one of their members dogs because its not counted as a purebred of that breed unless its registered with them. Yet they go in to say they can judge a dog that isnt even a breed they recognise. They could have made great in roads with anti BSL if they said no one can determine what a dogs parents are simply by looking at it.

Nor do I .

So why the hell are they in there at all ? They dont recognise a pitty as a breed yet they can identify it and teach others how to identify it as a breed. Not to help their own members and their own members dogs. Shameful.

Thats right

It's impossible to say 'Yes' or 'No' to this statement, in public or otherwise. May is conditional...which means it depends on something. Exactly my point unless you know you cant make a blanket statement about that breeder and you cant know unless they tell you. The may is conditional on you being told - not on your assumptions. Your own assumptions of what is best for the breed may not be what is best for the breed - that depends on the impact it has in the future. What is best for the breed is subjective and means different things to different breeders and it changes from litter to litter and it certainly doesnt depend on whether you show your dogs or not.

Disgusted I cant see the difference? Of course I can see the difference in why each was originally done but the end result is the same and now 14 plus generations on its done. There isnt a chance on earth that anyone can be sure they havent got a drop of corgi blood in there and the ANKC accepted the pedigrees and registered them as being able to be bred and that has nothing what ever to do with me not being able to see the difference of why each program was instigated.

I am confused. Are you saying it's alright for certain groups to say they're better than other groups of breeders so long as they don't say those other groups are bad? Yep thats pretty much it. Promoting your own group isnt the same as kicking hell out of anyone who in your opinion doesnt do what you do. But the very act of saying you are "better" than someone, means that you are also saying they are "worse" than you. You are splitting hairs if you think what the MDBA does is any different to what you're getting so upset about here. You don't need to "kick the hell" out of someone to bag them. Not true - I can state that one group does things a certain way and that I believe thats the best way without having to brand anyone who is not a member as a puppy farmer, accuse them of only being in it for the money etc. If you think that article in the OP is asking for us all to be in one generic group without differentiation thats not what I get from it.

Describing a way of breeding/raising dogs and not preferring it for rationally stated reasons, is not the same as 'kicking hell out of' anyone. It's what's done in most fields of work. Yes Mita that is correct however, I am not discussing people describing a way of breeding /raising dogs and saying they prefer not to do that I am talking about those who kick the hell out of those who they see are doing things they prefer not to do. I prefer not to cross breed dogs and I see nothing wrong with saying that any more than I see something wrong with someone saying they think what I do is not what they prefer to do. I am talking about something altogether different where one breeder attacks another whether they be inthe same group or another and accuses them of all manner of things in order to make them selves look like the only ones who might be able to care about a dog.

I cant but considering the guy who did it all was one of the world's best at this sort of thing and montored all pretty well its a pretty safe bet.

I am confused. Are you saying it's alright for certain groups to say they're better than other groups of breeders so long as they don't say those other groups are bad? Yep thats pretty much it. Promoting your own group isnt the same as kicking hell out of anyone who in your opinion doesnt do what you do.

So the RSPCA cant say you docked them.

Oh yes the purity issue is totally seperate and as far as I am concerned if a health problem that cannot be solved other ways, can be solved using a single cross breeding and is done under close control and planning, then this should at least be an option for breeders. Breeders can always choose not to use the dog that are free of the disease. However as a buyer I will be shopping for the dog without the disease and this may by why both sides can not agree to disagree and let both sides do what they beleive is in the best interest of their puppies adn the breed. If that made sense. Besides it is only a matter of time that there will be enough pressure to breed health dogs wne possible and I am sure if the breeders refuse, the next thing will will find is the goverement wil make it illegal to bred a dog with the disease. It is always better to direct and lead change rather then have it thrust upon you. Back to yoru comments about Harleqines, they do not make up 50% of the population of the breed, in other words there are some Hars but they can be breed to any of the other colours?? in the breed so there is still a large selection of dogs to pick from. Hairless is another topic and another group of problems all together isn't it. Just wanted to add, that in any breeding plan be it a one time cross or DNA testing or what have you, everything will have to be considered. So it may be appropriate to do a cross bred to take out a a disease, it may not be appropriate to do a cross for some other goal. Yes but the bob tail doesnt make up the entire breed either in other words there are some bobtails but they can breed to any other so there is still a large selection to choose from. The issue isnt what is happening now and how you can avoid XYZ now its when you have a situation as you now have with the bobtailed boxer - you cant see if there is a corgi in there 14 generations ago because after 4 or 5 generations they drop off the pedigree even if you knew what you were looking for. Years ago I was breeding ragdoll cats and some breders decided the gene pool was limited and they wanted new colours and patterns so the cat mob gave them approval to do inter breedings. I didnt go on it much not because of the argument that they werent pure but because back then ragggies were pretty bombproof. Mine were really healthy and having 8 a litter - there was no big deal genetic issues I had to be concerned about in my breeding program. Some of the breeds they were using to widen the gene pool had lots of known genetic issues which no one was interested in knowing about or identifying if the cats they were using to have prettier colours carried or were affected by these genetic conditions. I held out - only bred cats from old lines for a couple of years but most others embraced it so unless I only bred my own cats and never bought in a new one from anywhere I was going to have those cat's in the back ground somewhere. You cant identify them by prefix because they were breeding both and today - about 10 years later trying to find a purebred Ragdoll cat which didnt have something of another breed in there would be impossible. With NBT boxers now being up to 20 or so generations you can test for that gene but thats only one gene and it hasnt been recoded on the pedigrees anyway so the chances of a breeder being able to identify whether or not they are breeding a dog which somewhere back all those generations ago was a corgi is whats upsetting them. I dont want to get into why some breeders felt it was in the best interests of the breed to have some boxers without tails or whether thats a good or bad thing but clearly with the Dals its a good thing - to my way of thinking. It enables the breed to continue with out having to suffer - but its still the same argument - that somehwere back there for now and as time goes on - forever their entire breed is tainted by a mongrel. Even after 10 or so generations thats still how they see it even though a new breed only needs 5.

Hard to see the valid argument when the same thing occurs in hairless X 2 dogs, harlequins X 2 etc. Either way however, that is a completely different argument to that which has been used with the Dal and with the bob tailed boxer - that they are not pure.

Yep.

This is a good link with lots of information. Like this Current Descendants of the Dalmatian Pointer Cross are at the 12th generation. In the 12th generation, the Pointer is one of 4,096 dogs, thereby contributing 0.0244% of the genetic material in that generation to the next generation - the 11th generation. From the perspective of the entire 12-generation pedigree, the Pointer is one of 8,190 dogs and contributes 0.0122% of the genetic material to the progeny. These percentages appear miniscule when framed in comparison to the sire and the dam of a litter that each contributes 50% of their genetic material to their get. They are the same about the bob tailed boxer .they are up to about 12 generations just here in Australia but they still carry on about them being mongrels. Mongrel dogs or ignorant dog breeders?

Me too.

It all depends on what you are looking for and what you want to learn most about Our Introduction course covers a lot of the ethics of breeding - how to find and deal with puppy buyers ,contracts etc You can find info on the cycles and how the bitch works etc in numerous books and all over the net but ours cover things which are hard to find especially if you dont know what you are looking for. It does cover the basics of the reproduction of the species but we have another course Equiv to about year 3 uni - Canine Reproduction which goes really into the science and veterinary stuff and doesnt touch on the ethics stuff. If you are not intending to breed and the ethics and other issues apart from how puppies are made and whelped are things you dont need and you want the more advanced technical stuff then the Canine Reproduction one is better suited to your needs. You will get enough from the books recommended to be able to answer the basic stuff but if you want to be able to be more informed you need more. If you launch into the hard stuff before you get the basics especially if you are not actually doing the whole process yourself - its a really hard ask.