Steve

If we get a complaint or if we feel something might not be quite right we launch an investigation which will entail what ever is needed for us to work out whether the breeder or the rescue person or professional is mucking it up or not. Obviously each is taken on a case by case basis but we have a Private investigator who we use if we have to and some cases will be dealt with a warning and counselling with the breeder being monitored more closely or asked to leave. By having the registry it also enables us to have more control over genetic testing, sharing of info, monitoring numbers of litters being bred , proof of parentage etc. Its tougher now than it was in the beginning but there is a focus on ensuring the standard is high because one bad one impacts on the rest.Its the same with the standard placed on the courses and students - if any of it is going to mean anything it has to be taken seriously. In some circumstances we would involve the police and have the person charged if we needed to. The major differences in our code is that we agree we wont sell puppies to pet shops, or agents, that we wont breed unregistered dogs. there are couple of minor points where our members agree to treat a sale and post sale differently and a couple of others. But the code is only one aspect of membership, with extra screening and getting to know puppy buyers being another part of it too. If a puppy buyer or two tell me a breeders dogs are being well looked after and theyir yard and set up is clean and there's no problem we dont have visit done unless there is a complaint. People seem to be threatened in some way because we introduced an option for our members to register their puppies with us if they wanted to utilise the data base - its difficult to see why.

Your right MDBA has been around for 6 years, yet 90% if not more don't know it exists?? The ANKC has been around for years, and yet many members of the general public know nothing about it, nor about registered dogs. I think a new registry crazy idea, I would think you would get better results if you invested your time in working to get on the ANKC committee and putting your talent to use on the existing registry. Time will tell and thanks for the vote of confidence but I have no desire to be on the ANKC committee any more than I want to be spoken to as if Im a naughty child because I want to play a different game.

So does them mean you can be a Schnnodle(DDB) breeder ?? & recognized with the MDBA The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered. No dog can be placed on the stud registry unless it is a main registered dog with an approved registry - You can not be a schnoodle breeder and be an MDBA member. If you are working on a new breed you are able to place the dogs on the Foundation registry to enable you to do exactly what you can do now with the ANKC - seek breed recognition when you get to that. Allowing people to work on that under our supervision means they can use our data base to track genetic issues , health or temperament way before it gets to a request for recoginition.And they dont get to even be a starter unless they can present the breeding program and show how they intend to proceed to get to a new breed and what you can do with any puppies produced along the way is restricted too. To suggest that what we intend to do is to allow schnoodle breeders to be recognised is a mile away from reality and in fact its an attempt at showing people the difference between a schnoodle breeder and breeder who is working within a frame work to develop a new breed. This concept isnt new over seas it just something the ANKC havent provided as they usually show no interest until the application goes in for recognition - that doesnt mean the process of getting there isnt the same or that its not a good thing for us to be involved before that. So what exactly can they breed under the registry that is from unknown or unregistered parentage ?? The same thing they can breed when starting any breed with a view to attaining breed recognition with any registry. Do you think the ANKC tell people what dogs to use in their foundation stock ? Progeny is registered on the foundation register with us just as it would be with their own breed registry just as any breed in development does now. One of the most serious concerns for any breed is the integrity of its pedigree and ownership records. The ultimate goal is full ANKC recognition. Often, the biggest hurdle is creating and maintaining accurate records.All we are doing is helping them with their record keeping and tracking potential health issues with the provision of a pedigree. I dont see why its such a big deal and its common in over seas all breed registries anyway.

Yes you can buy it. Unless they are checking everyone's back yard the rotten eggs can still slip through. Look at some of the MDBA awards handed out, some of them are a little less then squeaky clean. I hope that was worth it.

Before anyone gets into the MDBA as a breeder member, a rescue member, or a professional member they have to agree to a code of conduct and demonstrate they understand what they are agreeing to and we screen them. They have to tell us their breeding philosophies, what they do, their goals, their challenges etc. We take references from their puppy and dog buyers, we give their buyers free membership and we get to know the people they have sold puppies to. This week Ive spoken with 8 puppy buyers 6 different breeds for another reason who have told me loud and clear what they think of their breeders and sung their praises and were eager to tell me about the breeder's practices. Every suggestion of something not quite right is looked into and every complaint is investigated [ and we have a private investigator on retainer]. We have refused entry to some , we have recommended some go and do our Introduction to Canine breeding - in particular the ethics unit and come back if they think they would still like to join. We have removed 3 breeders from our membership and one rescue group and one professional member. So I know their practices as much as it is possible for me or anyone to know their practices and if I find out Im wrong they are gone. I dont recommend one MDBA breeder over another one MDBA rescue group or one MDBA professional member over any other I give the options and let the buyer/ client decide because if I wasnt prepared to recommend them equally they wouldnt be there

Why not work with the current system to improve it rather then start another one? To me it's like Steve (and a few others) are putting the MDBA members in one corner and non-MDBA breeders in another corner, Whether they be ANKC breeders, BYB's and/or puppy farmers. We are not putting MDBA members in one corner and non MDBA members in another - that's being done by others. Are accredited breeders in one corner and all others in another, are people who belong to breed clubs putting themselves in one corner and those who are not part of their club in another ? Is ANKC in one corner and AAPDB in another? Where is the problem ? Why should we have to be bullied into doing what we are told to do and try to change the system to try to find solutions to what we see as issues? We knew the system couldn’t be changed the way we felt comfortable with because the laws prevent it from happening even if anyone was open to it and we wanted to provide more resources and tools to people who wanted to access them. People speak as if this is a new thing and yet its been around for over 6 years and we have worked are backsides off trying to promote purebred dogs and registered breeders . We have encouraged people to become registered with their state's CCs and supported and been in advocating the same things as the ANKC beside them and the state CCs in everything we have done but because we wanted to introduce something to help our members profile their pedigrees providing information in a registry which isn’t provided by anyone else for all breeds and make it with a greater focus on health and temperament for the benefit of our dogs we see the craziest reaction and accusations. For 6 years people have had a choice on whether you joined or not and I haven’t noticed anyone racing around saying anything against any of you personally who didn’t - in fact as previously stated we couldn’t even if we wanted to. We don’t promote breeders who are not our members any more than any group promotes people who are not their members and if that’s being in our own corner there really not that much to be done about that any more than there is for any other group.

No thats not how you become a BREEDER member [not shouting] or a Rescue member or professional member - if you go back a bit you will see what has to happen before anyone gets in or stays in as a breeder or rescue person. If you agree to a code of conduct you can just pay and join as a pet owner.

Having seen the breeding practices of some of the members of my breed clubs, a breeder having membership means little to me too. Me too.

No to all.

I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are? ah so there is an agenda. If you say so. Maybe if someone else asked we might get an answer. Maybe its the accredited breeder program????

Actually there is heaps of stuff on the net about dodgy puppy farmers including pictures, and they are named. It is just not in one place and takes some time to find. I know of several in Australia - and these same ones have glossy websites showing the great conditions the dogs live in. Yet when raids occur it paints a somewhat different picture. i totally disagree with those tactics and have no time for anyone who raids premises or supports illegal activities two wrongs do not make a right Me too.

I think that's your interpretation but I don't think it is the correct one. The criteria for MDBA membership would be fairly clear and I think when people can see what the MDBA's criteria for membership is they will immediately know that each breeder member will have met that criteria. It is THEN (not yelling) up to the buyer to decide whether that additional criteria means anything to them or not. I'm sure there are quite a few non-MDBA members that meet the additional criteria as well.....and probably go a step further than that for their puppy buyers. Of course there are but how do we know who they are?

Many breed clubs do the same thing with COE etc, how is that any different to the MDBA? Its not

this not getting emails has only happened recently though as I hadn't noticed they had stopped. Thank you. They were stopped when you said you were still getting them in the thread that was deleted. If I d known sooner that it was a problem I would have stopped them before that as it wasnt our intention to cause a problem for you.

Out of curiosity are you in favor of ethically registered ANKC breeders or pushing an agenda for MDBA members only? Look - I came here yesterday to start this thread in support of registered breeders - all registered breeders as a group. That was because most people missed a deleted thread which raised issues regarding confusion about the term registered. Of course Im in favour of ethically registered breeders but Im also pro MDBA and I dont see why anyone cares if I think they are O.K. too.

Also unless you tick you dont want any further communication when you buy something from the pacers site you get the newsletters and emails as hundreds of people here would attest who have never been members who receive them. Same if you buy something from the MDBA site including awards tickets unless you tick you dont want them.

That's a good question. Referring people to the MDBA website seems like it should be a good resource to help people find good breeders, if all the member breeders are listed? wasn't going to reply to this but: I joined MDBA years ago, paid a fee etc. I have however not paid a renewal for the last 3 or 4 years, nor received a renewal notice. I do not consider my self a member yet they still seem to do so as I am still getting emails from both the MDBA and Pacers (and I have never been a member of them) when the topic, since deleted, about the new MDBA's registery in the news thread arose, I said I wouldn't be joining, Steve replied but I was already a member of the MDBA. I said the same as I am saying here. I have not rejoined for some years. Thread was deleted before I could find out if I am being counted or not. ;) Same here, I used to have a breeder listing on there - now I don't, I didn't remove it yet I still get emails etc. ;) Rebanne doesnt get emails anymore as she is unfinacial and the reason you do is because you were given free membership for the work you did when we were doing the fundraising for the bushfires.Your breeder listing isnt there now even though you didnt remove it because you havent gone into the new site and redone it as has been advised several times in the emails and newsletters. You will find that you cant get into the private forums either because its reliant on you re registering with the new website. You dont have to join the registry or use it if you dont want to - its a service you can use as a breeder member if you want.

The Tibetan Spaniel registered breeders have an International TS Working Party on health. Info on the international site. Menu on right, is even more specific. There's the kennels listed country by country. http://www.tibbies.net/itswp/ This site is accessible to all, registered breeders, pet owners & potential pet owners. There's a Tibetan Spaniel Global Village Forum on the site where anyone can ask questions. Even on general health matters. Recently, my tibbie had a puzzling bowel upset that came suddenly & wouldn't go away. Checking for any sign of typical chronic bowel conditions was easy. No such conditions in depth & breadth of her pedigree. In fact, that helped vets in diagnosing the problem. Turned out to be a food intolerance triggered off by a dodgy treat. But the advices re diet from australian & international breeders (& some DOLers!) led to recovery. Yes its great and useful to consider when working out what - if any tests need to be made mandatory before breeding.

;) Care to clarify which one it is? Im reluctant to do this because I already know it will sart a whole new wave of beating us up And there's another marketing 101 fail. Do you actually think that the questions are not genuine? No Sheridan I know the questions are genuine I just also know that giving out more info will bring in more punches from the side lines.

;) Care to clarify which one it is? Im reluctant to do this because I already know it will sart a whole new wave of beating us up but perhaps if I show you one we have already done which has a tick from the uni and the breeders who have seen it havent gone troppo too much over it may help to explain what we are doing.Remembering that a big part of it is entering the info on the pedigrees so over a few generations anyone looking at the pedigree will see the test results of the ancestors as well as the ones currently being considered. Border Collie – 2 Registries Working Registry ; Working Bloodlines. Dog must be registered with, or the offspring of dogs registered with ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or MDBA Working Registry parents. General Registry; Includes Show and Work bloodlines or any combination. Dogs must be registered with Acceptable KCs, MDBA general registry or MDBA working registry ISDS, ABCA, CBCA, AWBC or any combination of the accepted working and KC registries. Dogs who qualify may be dual registered in MDBA Working registry and MDBA General Registry Dogs or their offspring can move from Working Registry into general Registry Dogs or their offspring cannot move from General Registry into working registry Health Screening 1. Collie Eye Abnormality CEA. Mandatory testing, one parent must be DNA CEA normal. CEA carrier and affected can be bred, but only to a DNA normal. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring. DNA cleared by parentage is acceptable. Goal, to prevent any CEA affected offspring, to keep as many dogs as possible in the gene pool. 2.Neuronal Ceroid Lipofuscinosis CL. Mandatory testing, one parent must be DNA normal. DNA Carrier may be bred to DNA normal. DNA affected dogs may not be used. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested All dogs less than 3 years of age must be DNA tested prior to breeding. If one parent is not DNA tested and is over 3 years of age and not showing clinical symptoms, it may be bred to DNA normal dog. Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring. Goal; to prevent any affected offspring, to keep as many dogs as possible in the gene pool. 3.Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome TNS. Recommended testing, Even though the TNS DNA test has not at this time been published and not peer reviewed, it is offered for sale and is a recommended requirement. TNS is almost impossible to diagnose without DNA testing and knowing where carriers are is even more difficult. One parent must be DNA normal. DNA Carrier may be bred to DNA normal. DNA affected dogs may not be used. Untested dogs are able be bred to DNA normal partners, provided owners are informed that the parent was not tested Buyers must be told in writing the test results of parents and explain possible results in offspring Goal; to prevent any affected offspring. Goal; to prevent any affected offspring. Breeding Directives, Other Comments. Mandatory; Merle to merle are not allowed. Goal; prevent possible health problems related to merle to merle breeding. Comment; ee red (also known as Australian Red) and sable coloured dogs should not be bred to merles. Sable and ee Red coats do not show the merle coat pattern, often making the offspring look as if they are not merles, when in fact they are. This can also be called phantom merle. Care needs to be taken that offspring from any merle to sable or ee red litter are not phantom merles and are not bred accidentally to another merle. Goal; prevent possible health problems related to possible future accidental merle to merle breedings. 4.Hip Dysplasia. Screening is not mandatory. Recommend AVA screening for hip scores in any lines where there is a known affected animal. Goal; to reduce the risk of affected offspring. 5.Elbows Dysplasia. Screening is not mandatory. Recommend AVA screening for elbow scores in any lines where there is a known affected animal. Goal; to reduce the risk of affected offspring. Other considerations and health information 1. Epilepsy Although it's clear Border Collies can be affected with epilepsy, the incidence and heritability in our breed are unknown. Since we have little breed-specific information to go on, MDBA breeding recommendations concerning this disease are based on those for other affected breeds in which the disease is more well-defined. Recommendation: Do not breed affected dogs. If two unaffected dogs produce an affected puppy, do not repeat that mating. 2. Progressive Retinal Atrophy PRA is a progressive disease where tissue in the retina of the eye is destroyed. Incidence at this time appears to be extremely low or non existent No recommendations at this time. 3. Other conditions currently under investigation These are Glaucoma, Cerebella Abiotrophy and Exercise Induced Collapse. So far there are no proven screening tests for any of these conditions. No recommendations at this time.

;) Care to clarify which one it is? Writing our own standards for what the criteria for registration will be accepted isnt the same as altering the breed standards as in what they are judged by physically in a show ring. This is about what is required for each breed regarding health testing and various other tests before we accept them for litter registration. Here's what it actually says. http://' target="_blank">The Breed Registration Criteria MDBABR will develop its own set of registration criteria based on what is considered to be in the best interest for future generations of each individual breed. Registration criteria revisions are accepted for review and acceptance on a 3 year basis.

So does them mean you can be a Schnnodle(DDB) breeder ?? & recognized with the MDBA The MDBA are creating and writing their own standards for each breed to be able to be registered - that is we are working out for each breed what tests we are going to make mandatory and what is going to be recommended. There is no need for you to worry about people being confused about which breed standard because breed standards are not being altered. No dog can be placed on the stud registry unless it is a main registered dog with an approved registry - You can not be a schnoodle breeder and be an MDBA member. If you are working on a new breed you are able to place the dogs on the Foundation registry to enable you to do exactly what you can do now with the ANKC - seek breed recognition when you get to that. Allowing people to work on that under our supervision means they can use our data base to track genetic issues , health or temperament way before it gets to a request for recoginition.And they dont get to even be a starter unless they can present the breeding program and show how they intend to proceed to get to a new breed and what you can do with any puppies produced along the way is restricted too. To suggest that what we intend to do is to allow schnoodle breeders to be recognised is a mile away from reality and in fact its an attempt at showing people the difference between a schnoodle breeder and breeder who is working within a frame work to develop a new breed. This concept isnt new over seas it just something the ANKC havent provided as they usually show no interest until the application goes in for recognition - that doesnt mean the process of getting there isnt the same or that its not a good thing for us to be involved before that.

The first part is happening now with the updates for the website - someone is working on it as I type. The second Sounds good but some of our members dont want to have their names and prefixes listed and if you have a bit of a look at the snide remarks and accusation which abound knowing that it makes people have to defend themselves some dont want the grief ,the ANKC wouldnt consider it and in reality neither can we. the third part is also being done now.

Marketing tip: don't treat questions as an attack but rather a chance to educate potential recruits. I didnt treat that question as an attack and Im very sorry if it sounded as if I did.

If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are? Which then brings us back to the question of how does one find a good breeder, doesn't it. And really, do you actually know the practices of each of those 330 members? How would you recommend one breeder over another? Before anyone gets into the MDBA as a breeder member, a rescue member, or a professional member they have to agree to a code of conduct and demonstrate they understand what they are agreeing to and we screen them. They have to tell us their breeding philosophies, what they do, their goals, their challenges etc. We take references from their puppy and dog buyers, we give their buyers free membership and we get to know the people they have sold puppies to. This week Ive spoken with 8 puppy buyers 6 different breeds for another reason who have told me loud and clear what they think of their breeders and sung their praises and were eager to tell me about the breeder's practices. Every suggestion of something not quite right is looked into and every complaint is investigated [ and we have a private investigator on retainer]. We have refused entry to some , we have recommended some go and do our Introduction to Canine breeding - in particular the ethics unit and come back if they think they would still like to join. We have removed 3 breeders from our membership and one rescue group and one professional member. So I know their practices as much as it is possible for me or anyone to know their practices and if I find out Im wrong they are gone. I dont recommend one MDBA breeder over another one MDBA rescue group or one MDBA professional member over any other I give the options and let the buyer/ client decide because if I wasnt prepared to recommend them equally they wouldnt be there.