Steve

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct? If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them? 'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?' If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are? My apologies on mucking up the numbers. But by this token, you will be directing people towards non-MDBA members which you said in this sentence I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway you wouldn't do? This whole thing confuses me. Thats because you only picked up the bolded bit and over looked the next sentence - I recommend registered purebred breeders as a general preferrable group but I dont recommend any breeder by name or in particular unless they are an MDBA member. Im assuming you wouldn't recommend a breeder unless you were pretty confident of what they were doing either - I just use the fact that we have screened them and keep tabs on them as my yard stick. Dont know what the big deal is or why thats a problem.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct? If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them? 'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?' If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are? OK Well as you would all know from my post yesterday, I am new to all of this. What I don't understand is if you have 330 breeder members why aren't they all listed on the net or elsewhere?? Surely that would be a way for buyers to find good breeders, and if they were "playing up" (ie being dodgy) they could be "struck off" the list. Some of this seems fairly simple, but obviously it is not In the end, I really pity the poor dogs, esp those who spit out puppies until they can no more, with no laws to protect them and dog bodies/canine councils seemingly in disarray. I dont know of many groups who have lists of their members made public unless they have opted to advertise.Why not ask the ANKC why they dont make their member lists public so people can find them when looking for a puppy. Id say its the same reasons we dont. Just because you're a member of a group doesnt mean we are like commercial breeders who always have puppies available and we want a constant stream of people looking for puppies we dont have you know.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. From what I've read in this thread, you have something like less than 50 breeder members, is this correct? If someone asks for your recommendation for a breeder of a breed that an MDBA member doesn't breed, what do you tell them? 'Oh sorry we don't have any of those breeders on our registry, try back in a few years?' If you had read the thread you would know we have around 330 breeder members and if someone rings and asks me how to find a breeder of a breed which is not represented by our members I advise them to look here, or to go to their state's Canine Association. Is that O.K. with you or would you advise me to say something else? How many breeders do you recommend if you dont know who they are or what their practices are?

The other side of it all is of course that ANKC registered breeders dont breed enough dogs to get anywhere near filling the demand there is for puppies so unless there is a way for people to determine who is a the best breeder to go to other than ANKC registered breeders they end up buying from real dodgy puppy farmers. However, I dont care what term they use to describe them is except that it removes the meaning from the way the word has been used traditionally and confuses the buyer if they are looking for what we have traditionally called a registered breeder.

Thats it. I wont recommend a breeder who is not MDBA anyway but I do recommend them generally as a group. I felt sorry for Annie who had a clear idea of what the term meant and got clobbered - could have been worse she may have purchased the dog and probably would have if she didnt at least have a general idea of what she felt was behaviour from the breeder she didnt want to shop with.

The reason people have to date plugged away and recommended registered breeders isnt anything to do with it being the only recognised national registry - it was because it was promoted as having breeders who did things a certain way under a code of ethics. Granted what people thought they could and couldnt do wasnt quite what they thought it was when they began and continued to promote them as the "ethical" place to buy a puppy. The reason they have been granted exemptions at law is because they have standards on their breeders and police breaches. Traditionally when ever the term was used people knew they were referring to one group - the only group with a code of conduct which told their members what they could and could not do. Its not about potential inherent issues - its about predictibility. You obviously can live with any breed of dog. I cant and lots of people cant and wont. If I were to simply go out and buy a mixed breed dog there is a high risk the dog would be miserable and so would I. When I choose a dog Im aware of my own lifestyle and my family's needs, strengths and weaknesses so I choose a breed which is most likely to be able to fit without too much adjustment or management issues Im not prepared to live with. Any body can breed a dog but breeding healthy predictible well temperamented dogs over many generations takes skill and science. A purebred dog without a registered pedigree can not have health or temperament issues recorded for breeders to take into account when selecting their breeding dogs.They are bred with luck and over several generations the luck runs lower. A mixed breed or cross bred dog is also bred with luck and some people can live with what ever turns up but the people who come to me for a puppy cant. Its why we breed what we do the way we do. Its hardly reasonable to expect purebred breeders on a purebred forum will advise you or anyone where to buy a mixed breed puppy but its obvious that is the aim of the RSPCA and the AAPDB - go to a registered breeder. This used to qualfiy what they bred and how they bred them now its obvious it puts them in the same pond as any other person who allows two dogs to have sex and make puppies. So if the adjective which used to describe them which has been used to recommend them to people like Annie doesnt get people who are being advised to the same place the advisor thought they were its about time the language being used to recommend them is changed. The problem with saying ANKC registered is that every state is called something different even though they are all under the same umbrella and even some of their own members wouldnt know they are ANKC so it would require a bit of thought . Whether its true that "registered " breeders have been a good place to buy a puppy from or not the point is that now the term isnt describing the same people it used to.

Yes but we are registered breeders and usually when people come to us they want that piece of paper and it means a lot to them and its why they choose us over a pet shop.They believe we do some things and dont do others which they want to be in place from a breeder. Annie thought that being registered meant certain things which lowered the risks she felt she wated to avoid because she was following advice of going to a registered breeder. This isnt about what you want to look for in a breeder its about the fact that people are being advised the best place to buy a puppy is from a registered breeder but registered is not what the people who are doing the advising mean it to be and its time to further qualify it - because it is confusing.

Yes that is a problem but its not this problem. This problem happened because someone had heard about registered breeders and wanted to do the "right thing" and purchase a puppy from a registered breeder. The registered breeder turned out to be a registered breeder with another group who this person had deliberately tried to avoid.She picked up the inconsistencies and came here to ask about reporting them because they were breaching the code of conduct but they werent breaching their code of conduct. So its a different group of people - this one wants to buy from a registered breeder because they are trying to follow advice given them by people who have told them the best place to go for a pup is to a registered breeder.Your people have not given a hoot about the advice and havent cared if the breeder was registered or not - or perhaps they did and got sucked in by the lingo. Different problem - different solution.

Crapping on about what has caused it isnt finding the solution. Whether you like it or not if we say go to an MDBA member there isnt any confusion because that's who they are no matter where they live and we are not using the registered word. For us its a good solution and we can promote that to the general public. However up until right now this minute the term registered breeder is used to describe someone who is registered with their Canine Council as the only way of identifying who is the best to go to. Its been used for a hundred years and has been gven status by everyone advising someone on where to go to buy a puppy. On any day here on this forum someone is advised to go to a registered breeder.We forgot that registered could be used to describe the very people we were advising against and what happened with Annie illustrates the fact that its time we started using a different adjective which is unique to who we are. If you want to use it as an opportunity to tell us how terrible the MDBA is for starting a new registry as a service to their members - its a free country - but what we do and how we promote our members has no impact on you. If we say ours are good doent mean we are saying anyone else is bad and you have the same options to address the issue we do. Find another word or phrase to identify yourselves over other registered breeders because being "registered" no longer says what we thought it said. As I said its not my problem and my intent was to help people who were involved in the first thread to understand. It doesnt bother me if you lot get put in the same basket as any other breeder and puppy farmers ride on the back of the decades of promoting registered breeders. Even right now we have new accredited breeder schemes - and guess - what the pet shop people are about to start their own system of issuing accreditation to breeders too. So even if you race in and get the accredited registered breeder tag you will have to share that too.

Problem then becomes that a group decide they dont like some part and then they form their own registry. Opps thats what has already happened. Trouble is that certain groups making new registries all the time simply compound the issue. If we only had the one registry (ANKC) then there would be no need for this discussion. But the forming of various different groups and their registries simply makes the situation where members of the public are confused. And a new registry just started by a certain body only adds fuel to the fire. Our registry was started as a service to our members to enable them to track genetic , health and temperament issues and to ensure that any dogs being placed on that registry had the necessary proofs in place to ensure the genetic data was being collected and recorded. We do not have one breeder member who is not also an ANKC member - our registry isnt an instead of but rather an as well as and there is nothing fuelling any fire except people who want to make it into something it isnt by accusing us of doing the most ridiculous things. A handful of people decided it was one thing and the crap that is spread is taken as what it is. For over 6 years the MDBA has worked to encourage people to join the ANKC and to promote purebred dogs but now because we introduced something which is a tool our members can use which helps to see things in a pedgree which to date hasnt been available we have to be treated like we have committed some crime. The only thing we have done which is any different than hundreds of others have done is that we have done it for all breeds rather than just one. Pick a breed and most of them have a separate registry and they have had for years which records genetic test results and makes them available to their members. If Annie had been talking to someone who was registered with the MDBA then she wouldnt have had a problem because the expectation is what is expected for an ANKC member. The problem has nothing to do with us providing extra data on a pedigree it occurred because she bumped someone who was registered as a breeder with a commercial cross bred registry using the same language she expected only purebred regsitered breeders would use. As far as any registry such as the pet breeders registry is concerned the government is responsible for that because they have given exemptions to the ANKC and the only way any other group could get the same exemptions for their members is to register their dogs. If Annie or anyone else bumps into someone saying they are registered with less requirements on them than an ANKC breeder that has nothing whatever to do with us. Accredited breeder schemes via the ANKC elevate one registered breeder over another and put more requirements on what a breeder has to do to register their puppies and that is seen as O.K. but because we have made it much harder than they have for our members and to be able to register their puppies it's frowned upon. Dogs NSW and Dogs queensland can say that some of their members are better than other members who they still register and who they still register puppies for but when we say our members are better than some other breeders all hell breaks. Some of the breeders who have been given accredited breeder status wouldnt get into the MDBA and their puppies would not be able to be registered on our registry. Across the board everyone has seen what we have done as something great with the exception of a handful of purebred breeders who made a snap decision based on assumption and feed it up to be something it isnt. Councils have been registering breeders and their dogs, issuing permits and the like and so have the the AAPDB for years . Breeders have been saying they are registered when they are not ANKC registered and trying to pin the situation on us as fuelling the fire by introducing ours makes little sense.

You're absolutely right. This is one reputable breeder who doesn't see it as a viable solution :D So what is?

Absolutely we dont breed anywhere near enough puppies to put a dent in the demand - a whole new topic but this one was about how "registered breeder" no longer means what people have assumed it meant.

The big question is - when they have their way and we all have to have permits and licences to breed dogs and work under mandatory codes which are more difficult than a code of conduct will that make it almost impossible to tell us apart?

This is what caused the original problem.Annie became aware of a breeder who told her they were registered and she assumed that meant ANKC registered - they werent.They were registered with another group and as a result what Annie thought they were dong which was breaching what she thought the ANKC code of conduct was they were perfectly able to do. Obvioulsy it got heated and was deleted but it was caused by the fact that like you she thought a registered breeder meant ANKC registered breeder and it didnt. thanks. I realise reg. does not neccessarily mean ANKC, which is why I feel it's better to only have one body Australia wide. Then there is no confusion. Dog people are usually in the know, but it must be a minefield for others. :D Too late for that the AAPDB has been around for about 5 years. Our registry is new but our breeder members are ANKC registered anyway. No conflict there. I guess the new accredited breeders also put a new slant on things too.

This is what caused the original problem.Annie became aware of a breeder who told her they were registered and she assumed that meant ANKC registered - they werent.They were registered with another group and as a result what Annie thought they were dong which was breaching what she thought the ANKC code of conduct was they were perfectly able to do. Obvioulsy it got heated and was deleted but it was caused by the fact that like you she thought a registered breeder meant ANKC registered breeder and it didnt.

As the original thread was deleted its difficult for those who didnt see it to see the issue. Not my problem anyway.

I thought she was using caps to emphasise. :D Better not use caps any more Annie it ticks people off.

Then frankly, I am very surprised that so few bother advertising on your website given they went to the bother of joining in the first place. Part of that would be because you have assumed you know why they joined. Out of 10,000 how many advertise on the Dogs NSW website or their monthly journal? Is advertising on the MBDA website free if you're mamber or do you charge like DogsNSW does? Its free.

There are about 250 in this months canine Journal. Our breeders and Rescue members dont join so they can sell more puppies more easily and advertise their puppies and kennels on another website. They join to make a statement that they are not participating in the things some breeders can be doing which they dont approve of and still remain within their code of conduct. They join to access our resources. Those who have so far registered their litters in our registry have also registered their puppies in the ANKC registry and again they do that to make a statement and utilise the data resource to better track genetic diseases when profiling their pedigrees. None of us need to be MDBA breeder or rescue members to advertise our puppies or our kennels though as I said many more will come in and re do their breeder and rescue listings as what was there was removed in the changeover from one website to the next recently. Some dont want to declare they are members because breeders who are not members beat them up for it. They join because they believe its the best thing to do for their dogs and if they didnt demonstarte that to us in the original applications they wouldnt get in.

Then frankly, I am very surprised that so few bother advertising on your website given they went to the bother of joining in the first place. Part of that would be because you have assumed you know why they joined. Out of 10,000 how many advertise on the Dogs NSW website or their monthly journal?

We currently have approx 1100 members of which around 330 are breeders.

Yes I agree it has to be simplified - the purebred dog world dont have to join in they started it and they had a fair run of it too but now registered breeder means more than one thing and that is what needs to be simplified and the CCs demonstrating how they are different - if they are.

Does the MDBA have more than the 13 breeder members listed on their site and if so how does a member of the public find them? Most advertise on their websites or say so. Only a handful have gone in since the new website was put up to update their listings - they will. They can always ring me 0269276707 and I will tell them.

Problem is that being seen to be doing the wrong thing by one criteria isnt necessarily doing the wrong thing. Some people have definite views on what is and isnt the 'RIGHT' thing which dont fit in with what I think is the right thing. Its about ethics and a code is a basic minimum of what a breeder has to comply with there's a lot more to it than that.

Which makes the common suggestion/recommendation of "Go speak to your Breed's Club for recommendations" a bit of a fallacy then? And possibly why when I asked about the breeder I was (back then) planning to get my boy from that I got no help/advice/comment/direction. Even if that rule wasnt there you wouldnt get anyone with any brains to say straight up someone is shonky - its a court case.