Steve

The basic message is - if you push for new laws to control puppy farmers those laws will also apply to you. As a breeder and as a rescue. If you are O.K. about complying with those laws which are already in place via environment and planning as well as DPI and you are O.K. about having new laws which you will need to comply with as well as them then go ahead and continue the call for tougher laws and tighter regulation. BUT the very people you are saying you want shut down are already complying with these laws and will also simply do what ever they need to do to comply with any new laws. Those puppy farmers who are not complying can already be shut down just as you can be if you are not complying. Being a registered breeder or a private rescue group and complying with DPI requirements for breeding dogs doesn't mean you are complying with environment and planning laws for how you can use your land. If you are rescuing dogs you also should already have applied for these Development applications to run a business from your residence via your planning department. There is no doubt there is a problem - which needs to be addressed and solutions found if we are to ensure dogs don't suffer but traditionally new laws and tougher enforcement haven't worked. Based on this and the potential for unintended consequences for those who are not doing the wrong thing and the fact that I believe it gives more power to a quasi police force I think its going to take us thinking differently and working together to turn it around. If ever we stop banging around and telling the world about how we are superior to anyone else breeding dogs regardless of what group we belong to and stop just following on like sheep because we think its them and not us that will be done in the quicker we can do something on a positive level to stop dogs suffering. All this energy taken up on negative crap will get us no where.

Its only depressing because of the way you are looking at it. The things we are discussing here are not new - there are environment and planning laws in every single shire and there always has been. So far its been reasonably fair and council have shown little interest in enforcing them unless they are alerted to you. The intent of this thread wasnt to scare you or depress anyone it was to try and explain why I don't support the things that are being done to stop puppy farms. Its not that I don't support finding ways to stop puppy farms. I just think these ways are going to have unintended consequences which will impact on the good guys more than the bad guys. I believe that by making it hard for people to get these DAs by making their lives hell when they do what is required and apply for a DA that it will deter people from applying and ensure that more not less puppy farmers do what ever they can to avoid detection. We want to know where they are and that they are being monitored and we cant do that if we scare them off underground. If you are going to make someone spend 250,000 as the lady in the previous email did in order to be able to breed 5 dogs then she may as well breed 20 and get a return for the money she invested. Which she does. In the beginning you had a breeder who just wanted to breed 5 dogs but when she applied you make her life hell and her family attacked and abused because she said she wanted to breed dogs on her property as she is required to do in Wellington shire. You push until she either gives up and breeds em anyway finding ways to sell them where no one knows where they come from or she says if I have to do this Im going for broke and breeds heaps more than she ever originally intended in order to pay for her sheds and concrete and penning. How has this helped ? She owns a toy breed and having 5 fertile bitches and a litter of puppies now on and then on 160 acres wasn't going to be a problem. Why would anyone do that to themselves? Every puppy farmer - or every breeder for that matter watching what is going on when anyone applies would be brave indeed to do the right thing and apply in my opinion. Its not very politically correct to admit out loud that you know that the vast majority of registered breeders breach their shire local environmental laws and its something we don't often talk about but we do and anyone who breeds dogs reading this knows it - so do local councils and so do the CCs.For the record - I don't I applied for a DA before I moved in by the way. Some do it deliberately others do it without realising it. Im not against the whole stamp out puppy farmers thing or Oscars law and the rally.I just don't agree that pushing for new laws or RSPCA increased powers or making it uncomfortable for people to apply for a DA is the answer to get the desired result without it affecting registered breeders too. I think breeders who are backing this need to know the consequences but I also think that rescue need to know that these things will affect them too. You need the same kind of DAs to rescue a dog too. Look. http://deathrowpets.wordpress.com/2010/08/...-rescue-groups/

and thats what i mean they really have no idea at all do they. no idea about it. when you say you are a breeder, people immediately ask how much money do you make, i answer none at all, the answer is BULLOCKS ofcourse you make money. so then i <sigh> go into all my vet bills and what i pay for shows, yadda yadda yadda by the end of it they understand but try explaining that to a politician that sits in an ivory tower listening to greedy people that breed their dogs for money alone. can i ask someone here,what about those breeders just say they are a DOGSVIC breeder has their purebreed and is complying with regs there and is showing etc. ethical there and all that, then decides to breed up DD's alongside the peds get the extra income, getting all the benefits in the council of DOGSVIC membership, are these people classed as puppy farmers and be dealt under such laws i.e. code of practice? people like this give us all a bad name. isn't it any wonder govt and the rest can't tell the difference. speaking of the code of practice of breeding establishments businesses that i assume puppy farms come under. aren't the govt going to add to that when they say give councils more power, or are they goingto make up new lews totally? my mother has a question i couldn't answer her, i didn't have enough info.. she isn't on the net im sorry not puter savvy at all........ just say you have a permit for 30 years or more and these new laws come in that we've been talking about, do you now have to apply for a planning and environment permit as well as having your normal permit with the council? does that mean that it is up to the council to still police you or will it still mean that if you are dobbed in by a neighbor it gives the RSPCA the right to go over the council and state what they want to happen or close you down or modify you? would you have to reapply for that permit with the planning and environment permit added to the normal council permit? we are discussing this amongst ourselves we'd just like to know. Any one can be a Vicdogs member and they can do anything they want with any dog which is not a registered purebred .You can be a Vicdogs member and never breed a dog. You can be a Vicdogs member and breed purebred registered dogs and designer dogs. In NSW Victoria and Queensland there are breeders who breed both designer dogs and purebred dogs who are members of the state's Canine Association. Any breeder whether they be Vic dogs or not can breed as many as they want ,sell to pet shops or dealers etc. There is no suggestion that the government will add to any current mandatory codes and its more likely that they will give the RSPCA more power to police laws and perhaps enable councils to enter properties and such to find breeders more easily which are not complying with local laws. Many council by laws are not enforceable so if the state makes the new laws they can then have more powers of entry and seizure etc automatically. The RSpca have been pushing governments for the same powers in other states they currently have in NSW and that is the most likely outcome. However, based on the fact that these are promises which have been made if either party gets in and we haven't been told exactly what these laws may be at this point in time its all elementary. You have to understand that the laws which I discussed in the first post are already in and have been in for ever but councils haven't been that interested in trying to find you or ping you. If someone said anything about you having more than 2 dogs which bought you under council attention right now these planning laws would be used against you. ANYONE in your shire who wants to run a business from home has to comply with planning regs no matter how long they have lived there or how long they have been operating and dog breeding is classified as running a business from home if you have more than 2 dogs. Think it through. If someone complains that your yard stinks or your dog is keeping them awake do you really think they wouldn't use environment and planning laws to make you loose your dogs even though you are a Vicdogs member. Think it through. When new regs came in for butchers they had to comply or shut shop - they couldnt say we have been operating like this for ever so you cant make us comply with the new stuff. Does anyone else get to keep doing what they were doing when new laws and regs come in for any industry? You will get some compensation for things like kennels which have already been approved under a different criteria. You wont have to pull down a kennel block which has been given approval already for example which is too close to the fence according to new regs but thats only if they were already approved to be used for the purpose for which you are using them. BUT we are still talking about 2 different things a permit for a domestic animal business as per the DPI which gives you exemptions if you are a registered breeder which are dog laws and environment and planning laws.they are not the same thing. If your mum put in an DEVELOPMENT APPLICATION at some time for permission to run a business from home and she was given written approval to do so then she may have a fair argument if someone said she needed to re do that but thats not the whole story. dont take word for it only your planning officers - not your dog officers can answer that.

Good Grief! Im not saying we should not try to find ways of getting puppy farmers gone. I just dont agree on this being the way and what you have highlighted in red is from the animal liberation website .

I am to believe that several rescue groups that belong to the MDBA attended the rally and support change. Yep they did and so did some of our breeders. Supporting change is a good thing and I also support change because if things stay the same dogs will continue to suffer. We all agree that stopping puppy farmers would be a good thing. I just happen to think the way its being done is wasting resources and will cause un intended consequences for both breeders and rescue. I understand why they think the way they do and I have said over and over rallying against puppy farmers is a good thing. I dont support law changes though and thats the difference.I also dont support going after them when they apply for a DA. I certainly don't think any of our members who attended are anti ethical breeder. I guess thats one of the reasons Im trying to explain why we are against the methodology and why we don't support the rally. I happen to think that rescue is going to suffer out of this too - as environmental planning will dictate what they can and cant do as well especially after some of the things being said and about to happen in the back ground. No one said we have to agree on everything to be united on the basics.

Go and have a look - Not even the RSPCA are calling for a ban of animals in pet shops. why do you think that is ?Cant you see how crazy it is for people to be calling for laws like this ? http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-RSPCA-p...-shops_222.html

so wheres the bit that says we are going to be treated the same as a puppy factory under the same laws, this is the connection im looking for. not bits about puppy farms. :p so are you saying that we shouldn't say anything about this movement to rat out puppy farms because this is directly related to us? or will be down the track, tht is just so crap, where is the justice in this? so we should turn a blind eye to these puppy factories in our backyards. even though i've been told numerous times that reg breeders aren't being targetted are these people lying? who is lying who is tellng the truth. meanwhile these factories with these arseholes (sorry but thats what they are are allowed to continue) continue to churn out these pups. i will never turn a blind eye to that. the wellington shire are getting flooded with letters because of oscarslaw people and i can't say i feel sorry for them, as a response they have taken a few to court over the years. each time they have been thrown out of court in the farmers favour. because they say of inadequate laws. Toy dogs part of the problem is that I don't think anyone is lying. I think everyone does really think they are telling the truth.Oscars law really isn't targeting ethical responsible breeders but over and over again you are told that just because that isn't the intention that doesn't mean that it wont happen and how much more do you need to see there is a real danger for us in all of this? The answer doesn't lie in pushing for new laws but its too late in Victoria because there is already a promise of new harder laws and what ever the consequences for registered breeders those who have backed a call for harder tougher laws will have to account for the role they played in their own demise. Time will tell but there is nothing in history or in any other country of the world which would make a case to say introducing more laws is going to solve the problem. you are preaching to the already converted! i know that we don't need any more stupid laws to the point where we will be saying we aren't a free country anymore, i agree with this 100% so then how does banning petshop sales of cats and dogs relate to us then? a pure ban i am talking about not with anything tacked on. you are right you said so far no one is moving to do this because you know why, there is great pressure from a multi-million dollar industry not to ban it , money speaks louder than common sense and thats all they will listen to, money talks. if this happened at least it would curb some farms who rely on petshop sales to survive, it was estimated that 95% of their income comes from petshop sales. i have also heard this on the grape vine many times over the years as i say i grew up in the area with the most farms. because of all this bad publicity lately sales have actually plumuted in puppy farms. No its not just because its a multi million dollar industry its because its against federal law. Federal laws take precedence over all others.You cant make laws which are anti competitive or restrict sales in one state when its not law in Australia. It wont happen - it wont happen. Don't you get it - even you are able to sell your puppies to pet shops? Don't you hear me when I tell you that the ANKC stood against Clover Moore and with PIAA when she tried to stop the sales of puppies in pet shops? Not even your own purebred dog registry supports calls for stopping the sale of pets in pet shops - how on earth does anyone seriously think there's even a remote chance that this is even a goer? Listen no one is saying O.K. then we will stop the sales of pets in pet shops if we get in are they? It wont happen whether you think thats the answer or not. You dont even have anything to back up your arguments.Where are the stats, where is the science , the studies? You just look like a bunch of redneck greenies, animal rights loonies.

Who is 'they'? I don't beleive this theory at nay rate, regardless of who 'they' are... unless 'they' are radical extremists in general. I find it more plausible to believe that when people call for change, they don't think it through and look ahead. They only see their small parametre of what they feel needs changing. The impact of this shortsightedness and blinkered view is that the net is cast far wider than intended. I also feel it is our gross entanglement of legislation, and those that create and manage it, and laws that compunds the issues. In the main I agree with you and I think mostly thats what is going on. However, SOME such as animal lib and PETA most definitely have an agenda to stop all breeding. Its a bit silly to assume that some "theys" are not pulling some strings in this lot. Just as some also have an agenda to stop people from breeding first cross designer dogs so too do some have a desire to stop purebred breeders from breeding. Problem among breeders is that everyone thinks they are the best and they are special and that anything that may happen to them [ anyone other than them] is a good thing and because they are so much more ethical and fan bloody tastic they can afford to demand higher permit prices, laws regarding genetic conditions blah blah blah and anything else they can think of to stick it to them and shut them down. In fact they end up just sticking it to themselves. :p

It is the definition that is the crux. The definition of a puppy farm could be any breeding establishment. Maybe you are saying it more clearly than me - But how come they don't get it? Is it the way I hold my mouth?

so wheres the bit that says we are going to be treated the same as a puppy factory under the same laws, this is the connection im looking for. not bits about puppy farms. :p so are you saying that we shouldn't say anything about this movement to rat out puppy farms because this is directly related to us? or will be down the track, tht is just so crap, where is the justice in this? so we should turn a blind eye to these puppy factories in our backyards. even though i've been told numerous times that reg breeders aren't being targetted are these people lying? who is lying who is tellng the truth. meanwhile these factories with these arseholes (sorry but thats what they are are allowed to continue) continue to churn out these pups. i will never turn a blind eye to that. the wellington shire are getting flooded with letters because of oscarslaw people and i can't say i feel sorry for them, as a response they have taken a few to court over the years. each time they have been thrown out of court in the farmers favour. because they say of inadequate laws. Toy dogs part of the problem is that I don't think anyone is lying. I think everyone does really think they are telling the truth.Oscars law really isn't targeting ethical responsible breeders but over and over again you are told that just because that isn't the intention that doesn't mean that it wont happen and how much more do you need to see there is a real danger for us in all of this? The answer doesn't lie in pushing for new laws but its too late in Victoria because there is already a promise of new harder laws and what ever the consequences for registered breeders those who have backed a call for harder tougher laws will have to account for the role they played in their own demise. Time will tell but there is nothing in history or in any other country of the world which would make a case to say introducing more laws is going to solve the problem.

The whole point to this thread was to show you that you are already treated at law the same way a puppy framer is the minute you own more than 2 dogs because of environment and planning laws. they are already there - they already treat you the same way they just haven't enforced it so for decades you have been able to do what you do without needing all the same things they do to breed a dog. You have had it easy yet you call for laws to make it easier to find out you are not doing the right thing and be policed by those who see you as just as much of a problem as a commercial breeder. You are a dog breeder just as they are and that means you come under the same laws whether you think you should or not. Your shire says that happens when you own more than 2 dogs.

Again I sat at the roundatable conference and Im promising you they are after anyone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. What is sub standard conditions? Conditions which don't comply with local environment laws and mandatory codes. This is the exact wording. 1.1 A puppy farm (also known as a puppy factory or puppy mill) is defined as an intensive dog breeding facility that is operated under inadequate conditions that fail to meet the dogs’ psychological, behavioural, social and/or physiological needs. Puppy farms are usually large-scale commercial operations, but inadequate conditions may also exist in small volume breeding establishments which may or may not be run for profit. Do you really think that any laws will only apply to large scale puppy farmers? Where's the magic number ? At what point do you become large scale? How many and is it O.K. to breed in substandard conditions if you only own a couple?

i want to know what they are going to do about it , what are they doing exactly? have they done anything at all. i want their answer to this. and why aren't they doing anything. or if they have done something what is it they've done. this is what the members should be asking of them, afterall we pay them to stand up for us and as far as i can see here in this thread they aren't doing it. oscarslaw are calling for a ban on sales on petshops and shut down farms, they keep on saying it i can paste from fb page if you like the oscarslaws fb page. RSPCA are calling for tougher laws and polies are delivering as far as they are concerned. people are saying on their FB pages are you listening guys, we want to shut down farms we don't want any more laws. we want oscarslaw which says banning of sales, shut down farms. they also say starting a real campaign about pet ownership and i got into this further and it said desexing pets. this is what im saying, farms are legal and already conform to all laws so it doesn't affect them. people are asking for these farms to close but instead polies are just putting more laws up, is it what the public want? no. is it what anyone wants no, its what RSPCA want and what by the looks of it they are going to get despite many calling for something completely different. Perhaps a better question is what should we be doing about it. Not pushing for new laws which will expose the fact that most registered breeders are in breach of local laws ? they are calling for tougher laws and any new laws affect any one who breeds not just one tiny group and thats what we have been trying to say. I sat at the roundatable conference and Im promising you they are after anyone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. What is sub standard conditions? Conditions which don't comply with local environment laws and mandatory codes. That's you. Oscar law may say only commercial breeders but this is Australia and you cant make laws for them and not us. Ive no doubt that most in Oscars law have only good intentions in shutting down puppy farmers and so do you but you may think that a puppy farmer is someone who breeds dogs commercially - its not but even if that was the definition they used you cant make laws for one group without making the same laws for the other. Animal liberation backs Oscars law and that is screaming headlines and a clear and desperate warning for anyone who loves owning an animal to get the hell away from it.

i want to know what they are going to do about it , what are they doing exactly? have they done anything at all. i want their answer to this. and why aren't they doing anything. or if they have done something what is it they've done. this is what the members should be asking of them, afterall we pay them to stand up for us and as far as i can see here in this thread they aren't doing it. oscarslaw are calling for a ban on sales on petshops and shut down farms, they keep on saying it i can paste from fb page if you like the oscarslaws fb page. RSPCA are calling for tougher laws and polies are delivering as far as they are concerned. people are saying on their FB pages are you listening guys, we want to shut down farms we don't want any more laws. we want oscarslaw which says banning of sales, shut down farms. they also say starting a real campaign about pet ownership and i got into this further and it said desexing pets. this is what im saying, farms are legal and already conform to all laws so it doesn't affect them. people are asking for these farms to close but instead polies are just putting more laws up, is it what the public want? no. is it what anyone wants no, its what RSPCA want and what by the looks of it they are going to get despite many calling for something completely different. Perhaps a better question is what should we be doing about it. Not pushing for new laws which will expose the fact that most registered breeders are in breach of local laws ? they are calling for tougher laws and any new laws affect any one who breeds not just one tiny group and thats what we have been trying to say. I sat at the roundatable conference and Im promising you they are after anyone who breeds dogs in sub standard conditions. What is sub standard conditions? Conditions which don't comply with local environment laws and mandatory codes. That's you. Oscar law may say only commercial breeders but this is Australia and you cant make laws for them and not us.

HAVE YOU GOT THE CONNECTION YET? From the animal liberation website. HOW YOU CAN HELP Please help us push for a ban on puppy factories by sending a letter to Premier John Brumby via the oscarslaw.org website. 14 September 2010 ALV's openrescue team has been busy documenting horrific conditions on Victorian puppy farms over the past 18 months. From one end of the state to the other it's clear the situation is dire for dogs, who are locked up for years and used as breeding machines. Once they are no longer economically viable they get killed. One puppy farmer told us "Yeah, they get a bullet to the head!". BAN PUPPY FARMS RALLY! When: Sunday, Sep 19, 12pm – 2pm Where: Steps of Parliament House, Melbourne. Skye Brown is an animal rights activist who has been a member of ALV's Openrescue team since 2008. In the last 2 years he has recorded video footage at many Victorian puppy farms. "Before I set foot on a puppy farm, I really didn't know where the puppies in Australian pet shops came from. It's easy to pretend that the puppies staring out through the glass originally came from caring and loving environments. Now I know first hand that these pups and their parents have experienced pure hell. These puppies are mass produced in factories right here in Victoria. You wouldn't believe how many of these puppy factories are hidden away from view, operating with the silent approval from government and local council. What is clear throughout all of the puppy factories I have witnessed, is that these animals are treated as mere commodities. They are held in what can only be described as prisons. Puppies are taken away from their mothers when they are weeks old - never to be seen again. Meanwhile the mothers are forced to continue on as breeding machines, they are then killed when their bodies can no longer cope with the continual breeding. ALV is currently working in conjunction with Oscar's Law to investigate the ongoing abuse of dogs in puppy farms. We all need to keep exposing these horrific puppy factories and putting pressure on the government to end this cruel profiteering." Visit oscarslaw.org for more information. Please contact Premier John Brumby and let him know that puppy factories must stop: [email protected]

when you find the connection let me know, im going around in circles here. O.K, Go here - animal liberation website. Thats a start. http://www.alv.org.au/issues/puppyfactories.php 21 September 2010 7PM Project on Channel 10 ran a great story tonight about puppy factories featuring an interview with Debra Tranter (oscarslaw.org) and showing footage from ALV's recent investigation at a Victorian puppy factory.

from reading on facebook, they (oscarslaw ppl) are going to courtcases and objecting based on environment and planning laws, they can't say anything under animal welfare laws they are dealing with the same laws we will be dealing with. this is now thats going on. who made the laws? this is VCAT hearings im referring to. Exactly and if you think making people who are doing the right thing and applying for DA with environment and planning having to go through this is going to stop puppy farmers - Im thinking exactly the opposite. If you were planning on doing it all right and applying for a permit which then gave you all this grief would you want to comply with the law? One minute we want them all out in the open and doing it by the book and then when they do we hunt them - yet they are the ones doing it all according to local laws and we are the ones breaking the laws by not applying. Doesnt make much sense to me. But all this time we have been thinking is companion animals laws it was environment and planning. God help us if they make them any harder.

Still - its not a situation where you need to get dogsvic standing on this because its already the law. It has been the law for ever and its just never been policed much. Regsitered breders thought environment and planning laws didn't affect them. They do. Stand back from this and look at what is being said. Animal lib has been calling for councils to do their job and police current laws. Oscars law is calling for tougher laws .Pollies on both sides have said we will make tougher laws. Tougher laws even if they are nly about who will police current laws will impact on you more than they will commercial puppy farmers because they already have their permits and comply with the laws. Sure there are some who breed out the back of the boonies in rotten conditions but they are already breaking the current laws - they can easily shut them down - just as they can you if they wanted to.

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA? im sorry but to me thats not clear and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!! The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not. All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority. We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there? To be more clear Vicdogs has no say over environment and planning and nor do we. Vicdogs have already said they support new laws. We do not.

??? im sorry takes a while for me to catch on, are you saying that you have an equal footing to dogsvic, if so what is that footing exactly? does the govt listen to MDBA do they listen to anyone otherthan blinkin RSPCA? im sorry but to me thats not clear and to answer the above, bloody hell!!!!!! The MDBA at this time does not have the same exemptions as Vic dogs simply because in order to do that you have to be a registry and for now we are not. All of our breeder members are registered with their states CCs - I dont know what Vic dogs do but we have been in speaking with senators and trying to make a difference but at the end of the day Vic dogs is seen as the premier dog group with government and if they lay down and agree to the crap thats going on there's not much point in us trying to do much when we have a minority. We were yelling to senators about the laws that rolled Judy Gard when they were going through and we almost had them but then Vic dogs signed off on them. Not much point in me yelling when its Vicdogs dogs, members and dog shows which were being affected is there?

We have a breeder now who applied for the new breeders permits in Queensland and was told according to companion animal laws she could have as many as she wanted on 160 acres as long as she paid the rego fees which she gets a discount on because she is a registered breeder and Dogs Q were able to get them discounts. Sounded good. Until she gets the next bit. She has to have kennels and a whole pile of other stuff to breed her 6 dogs which she has bred for the last 10 years out the back of the boonies. Not because of the dog laws and thats where we have been looking and where the CCs can work for exemptions but in environment and planning. She has to pay 1500 to apply for the DA. thats not new - its always been the case but councils have never really done much because they only knew you were there and what you were doing if there was a complaint.

The MDBA has no greater voice than Vic dogs with environment and planning

supporting a cause to shut puppy farms down and stop sales in shops is not really in my opinion "running with animal libs" just because you are supporting a cause to shut down something and banning something doesn't mean you are also supporting RSPCA and what they want to bring in. i know RSPCA are anti-reg breeders i see it on their site about us, slandering us no suprises there. thats why there are plenty on the face book saying to both parties, we don't need any more laws to go after Rogue breeders. how are they going to find rogue breeders and i got my answer on your post. they are only listening to RSPCA and what they want to do not listening to anyone else, i understand all that. why can't they just ban big puppy farms with battery dogs close them down OR as a start ban sales in petshops thats all they need to do, not add on to existing laws make new ones, MAKE IT BLOODY COMPLICATED or whatever RSPCA want to do. thats what many are calling for, nope they've answered by saying we will introduce MORE LAWS tougher laws that the farms can manipulate their own way find the loopholes still be in business a they are doing now, breed up mixes flood the country with them. i also read somewhere the premier and opposition want to give more power to councils to shut these places down, i assume "places" mean puppy farms. but by what you are saying it means ALL BREEDERS giving them more power to regulate even the registered breeders and make it harder for them. i do get all that and i do agree thats what they are doing. thats why we have our state controlling bodies we pay them money to stick up for us and you are telling me they are not? why not, why are they sitting there why isn't the members holding them accountable? making them work for their money they get off us. RSPCA are going after backyard breeders but as asal says, we are all backyard breeders, define backyard breeders. and this is their answer get us all with new laws. i don't agree with any of that especially calling for RSPCA to have more power!!! so what happens to a breeder thats had a permit in that shire for a long time?? they have to re-apply is that what you are telling me for environmental planning? under these new laws the premier and the oppposition said they want to bring in. they are saying identical stuff copying each other !!! but new laws tighten up old ones, is not going to get to the root of the problem that everyone is complaining about, puppy farms, shelters filling up, petshop sales. so what about this that the RSPCA is proposing? you aren't required to be registered as an animal business so does that mean that you are not required to apply for planning and environmental permits? im just asking this question. is there anything else out there that is being proposed that voids this one being proposed? person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice. my final question, is MDBA liaising with government have they a voice? i got told DOGSVIC has a voice but so far i don't know what their answer is to any of this. i assume that they are also liaising with the govt and making sure they exempt DOGSVIC members like above statement. if the answer is, yes we have a voice MDBA are liaising with govt....then......where do i sign up, i am in. and yes, i am like mortonplace i will want to be included on anything that requires us all to work together to make sure we are all protected from this. agree 100% . This bit quote - person who is a member of an Applicable Organisation (including Dogs Victoria, Cat Authority of Victoria, Feline Control Council, Governing Council of the Cat Fancy and Waratah National Cat Alliance) that registers their puppies and/or kittens with that Organisation and has less than 10 fertile females of either species is not required to be registered as a breeding establishment with their Council. The reason for this is that these groups have been approved as Applicable Organisations due to their members being required to operate in accord with a Code of Ethics established by their Organisation. The Code of Ethics established by these organisations mandate responsible breeding and responsible pet ownership principles which are similar to the aims of the mandatory Code of Practice. Means nothing when you start to look at environment and planning laws. This means you dont have to apply for a permit as a registered breeding establishment as a registered breeder until you have more than 10 dogs but the fact that you dont have to be a registered breeding establishment isn't the same as having to have a permit where you live to breed dogs. Do you live in a residential area and own more than 2 dogs which you breed? or Do you live in a rural area and own more than 5 dogs which you breed ? If so do Do you have a current permit from your local shire to breed dogs on your property? Here is a real life actual email I received from someone in a farm zone who owned 5 fertile bitches. Council says over five breeding bitches and I must register with them as a dog breeding business and hence come under the Victorian code of practise, get audited by council etc. Now, if I am an AnKC breeder, my council says I can own up to 10 breeding bitches ( dogs don't need to be registered at all - just the breeder) and council don't care if I am in the farming zone. That is, i dont need to be a reg bus with council and the code of practice does not apply. HOWEvER , the Department of Planning does care. So here state and council differ. Iwhile local govt says I am fine to be have 10 bitches on a farm as an ANKC person, State govt says I need a planning permit for more than five breeding bitches (!). So I am back to square one, ANKC or not. To get a planning permit I pay $500 to council, show plans, design, management etc. I then have to put a public notice at the front of my property for one month during which time the public can object. When they object (as the loony neighbour here did, slapping my family home on the front page of local rag and calling us puppy farmers - I am still suffering from major depression as a result of their terrorism over a 2 yr period) you must then go through VCAT. It took 8 months before our case was heard cos we r country. It then took 3 months to get the ruling. Which found in our favour.

Yep.

Answer here And I hope it will help to explain why a Group such as the MDBA which represents Breeders and rescue members is not happy about supporting a rally for changing laws. I think at least the majority of people will be able to understand it rather than just see us as not doing our bit to stamp out puppy farming. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=207128 Under no condition should anyone who owns or breeds a dog run with animal lib regardless of whether you think thats not so bad or not. If they back it - get the hell away from it.