Steve

I think you're disagreeing with me, or at least agreeing that I'm overly cynical. To clarify, I don't doubt that shit happens, I pretty much expect it. That's why I have the point of view I have. It's the "shit's not going to happen" POV that I find hard to get my head around. That said, I remembered on the way home after a day out with the dogs that I had posted into a thread about renting with animals with tenants and landlords going hammer and tongs and realised that cynical or not, I'm a complete idiot for posting in the first place :rofl:

Yep shit happens and it can happen to the best of us without us even seeing it coming.

I own an investment property. It has a house on one half acre block and 5 other half acre blocks already sub divided and serviced with separate titles - I just had power and water connected to them so I guess thats 6 investment properties. I also own another 5 acre block as well as the 30 acre property we live on. In my view thats a luxury alright - its not that long ago that I was struggling to find enough money to buy food let alone pay 3 mortgages 2 of which [or 7 which ever way you look at it ] are on properties I don't live on. I don't have any super so thats how I have chosen to try to make that up but the fact is if I go broke it will be the investment properties which are sold off first. I know that if I sell them I'm better off a couple of thousand dollars a month that Im paying now and there's enough equity to pay the property off Im living in. I dont know how other people see that but for me an ex poverty stricken single Mum who had 6 kids to worry about feeding and no child support back then living in public housing its a luxury for me to hold properties I dont need to live in especially when I remember I bought my first home as a single Mum with $10 in the bank. I guess its all about how you look at it. It feels like a luxury to me.

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Thats because thats what it is.

too hard send me an email [email protected]

Sort of except you cant assume that because someone falls into one group or the other that they are doing it right. Like it or not the reality is that some people who only breed registered dogs do a pretty rotten job some who breed only a litter a year the same. According to the new Australian pet Dog Breeders Association some who breed hundreds of dogs a year can be doing it all pretty well and are not considered puppy farmers. Making money doesn't equal puppy farming under this definition.

No! Send them to us! Put us in your will we will make sure they are O.K. and we will follow your wishes even without money. MDBA PACERS.

Of course some BYB are going to be better than others, but if the "breeder" is already going to all that effort then why not just apply for a prefix and do it properly Thats easy because they dont want to be a CC member. Part of what I do as a registered breeder is to ensure that my pedigrees are registered to enable any one else - and me- to be able to enter health and temperament issues so that is able to be used in future generations. I could simply resign from Dogs NSW and continue to do exactly as I have been doing for 35 years without the need to register my puppies. Would I instantly become unethical overnight because I do that - I don't think so. I can still sell them with a pedigree - just not a registered pedigree but that means it stops there. No other breeder can use what Ive bred to improve on what they have and I don't breed for anything as a priority other than that. Because Im not just considering this litter and these puppies Im considering what comes next - not just next litter but how what I do now may impact on the breed and therefore families who live with dogs for generations. I dont see someone who has a different goal to me as being automatically unethical but I think if we are interested in breeding great healthy dogs we need to do that with science and not just luck .Without the registered pedigree system then it will either sooner or later become just luck. There is good and bad in every group and when we start to believe thats not possible we become the rednecks.

You need to take special attention to the definition of a puppy farmer. Its not what the majority of people think is a puppy farmer. How many you breed or own has NOTHING to do with it. Ive just had a very lengthy chat with Angela Thompson who is the lady in charge of this section with NSW - DPI. The business of breeding dogs is defined in the act. Anyone who who sells for fee or reward a puppy or dog. Note that means even if you don't get any money for selling a pup if you get anything for handing a pup to someone else you are considered to be in the business of breeding dogs. So even if you only ever breed one litter - unless you keep them all you are in the business of breeding dogs. That includes rescue so thats why the RSPCA Can enforce laws for the concrete in pens for a rescue group. This is very important - because even though the ATO definition for being in the business of is one the breeding of dogs is miles away from this - all that matters for us is that under the law anyone who has a litter of puppies falls under the mandatory code for breeding dogs. Next - the local councils have to go along with the DPI definition of someone in the business of breeding dogs and while the vicinity a dog has to be housed under doesn't come under DPI or local councils companion animals issues it does come under development plans and is a development matter. So if they want to press the point they can tell you that you need a Development application for breeding dogs even if you only intend to or do breed one dog and that goes for anyone involved in rescue too. then they have to kept 15 metres from a dwelling. thats about as clear as mud.

I always remember one of my sons did work experience at a vet practice and he and the vet travelled to a property to look at a horse. Before he got out of the car he worded my son up on what was going to happen and told him to shut up until they got back into the car. He said this lady has got nice shoes on and wont want to follow us out into the yard when we look at the horse. So we are going to fiddle around there for a minute then give her a nice big bill for work she will think we have done. thats exactly what happened! Bill was for $300 and he did NOTHING more than pat the horse and feel its legs. Laughed about what suckers they were all the way home.

Yes. If the rescue has kennels/pens to contain their dogs and cats, they have to comply with the Code of Practice for Boarding kennels. And the Code of Practice for Breeders of dogs and cats that is being developed is aimed at ANYONE who regularly SELLS dogs/pups and cats/kittens, so rescue IS included even though we are not in the 'business' or 'activity' of 'breeding'. And obviously POCTA. edited to add... also any relevant local council policies in their respective council area. Yes obviously this is what some have been working on but where is the legislation which puts rescue - now - under this legislation? Local polices are not enforecable.

Yes the definition is designed to describe anyone who breeds any dogs in substandard conditions. That includes purebred breeders, BYB, cross bred breeders, hobby breeders or commercial breeders.

Yes Im aware of that but the questions regarding 15 metres from a dwelling are pertinent to NSW

Dogslife - who knows this stuff better than anyone I know has just come into the other thread and said that the 15 metres from a dwelling stuff is only if you are in the business of breeding dogs.That this doesn't apply if you are a dog owner or a rescue. So at the end of the day I guess its going to hinge on what their definition is of "in the business of" and how much being in the "activity" of as per the preface in the codes differs. From what I gathered at the meeting there was no difference - a breeder was a breeder but NSW law seems to. Ill make some phone calls today and see if we can have a more clear idea of what we are dictated by. Sad isn't it that you need a law degree to understand it?

That is ONLY for people who run a business of breeding dogs. Rescue and Normal dog ownership does not apply to the above. So while we're at it . If the RSPCA visit a persons property [around 50 acres] who are rescuing dogs in NSW and they have 4 metre square grassed pens can they make them shut down if they don't comply with regs for breeding dogs or boarding dogs and have concrete pens ? I guess what I'm asking is - are there any regs which apply to rescue?

That is ONLY for people who run a business of breeding dogs. Rescue and Normal dog ownership does not apply to the above. Well thank you Dogs life that makes a whole heap of difference - How do we define business of breeding dogs? Id like $5 for every hobby breeder who has had grief over this when council push them. About 12 years ago I had a litter of puppies and a council ranger told me I could not breed a litter of puppies ever or keep my 4 dogs while ever I lived in that house because I couldn't house them 15 metres from my house. It was why I sold my house and now live on 30 acres!

The companion animals act in NSW has the requirement to house any more than 2 dogs at least 15 metres from a dwelling - not the code for breeding dogs. Edited to add This has been law in NSW for at least 12 years. Its not new. Julie

Yep but the law says that if you dont want your dog vaccinated yearly according to manufacturers recommendations you have to have written advice form your vet that you shouldnt.

These are the sort of issues people should be very aware of before anyone starts putting up their hand for a vote for licences and spot inspections.

talk to Shmoo - she can get it done for you - doesnt get mad when you cant quite make up your mind and present it in all formats so you can use it for printing and embroidery etc. She did both of ours.

? There are more people breaking the law than following it, if that were the case. Many people don't have 15 metres length of dwelling space in Sydney? I'm confused. I have two of my own dogs and sometimes two fosters - should they not be allowed to sleep in the house? In NSW the laws says - no. Any more than 2 have to be housed at least 15 metres from a dwelling or a place used to prepare food. The Gold coast are running a pilot program where every one who wants to keep an entire dog have to have a licence and be inspected before they can do that - they are assumed to be breeders. That is being watched as a potential model for the rest of Australia to follow. If that happens it means your homes will be inspected to see if they comply with the mandatory codes before you are able to breed and you will be inspected periodically to ensure you are following the laws.

In NSW if you have any more than 2 dogs they have to be housed at least 15 metres from a dwelling or an area used to prepare food. If you whelp your puppies in a room in your home that is a breach of the law. Go back and read the standards again. Do you vaccinate yearly and if not do you have written excuses from your vet?

The minimum requirements wont affect you any more than they do now.Because you live in NSW you already come under the code for breeding dogs - much of which is mandatory and you may be breaching this already. Part of the discussion was to consider using NSW current requirements as the norm Australia wide. This mandatory code for breeders is here Go though it and take note of what is standard - [or compulsory] and what is a guideline.The guidelines cut in if there is a complaint against you and can be used in court to show you are in breach of best standards.

I haven't seen this study - do you have a link?