Steve

I believe you and your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's. I've seen it myself, with zero guesswork or assumptions or animal rights mythology. Skeletal, huge torn hernias, prolapse, mammary cancer, epilepsy, crippled, senior etc etc they still fall pregnant and as long as they produce live litters they will continue to be mated. Given the apparent small percentage of registered breeders I believe a large number of pups come from elsewhere and with two motivations. Ignorance and/or money. But Skeletal, huge torn hernias, prolapse, mammary cancer, epilepsy, crippled, etc can all happen with one litter or some of them no litters. Seeing it and assuming over breeding has caused it doesn't fit what we know through experience and research. This was supposed to be about well looked after bitches in family homes who may have back to back litters as per the OP = not puppy farms and bitches in awful general condition

yep. And the science tells us that a bitch which has something wrong with her will either not come in heat, not mate or not fall pregnant but now humans interfere and its no longer up to the bitch. If you dont look after your bitch when she has pups you would be forgiven for thinking its caused by over breeding because that's how she looks.

Yes narrow will cause problems but that's just the bits you can see and relatively easy to fix Trachea and Larynx are shortened too plus a whole heap more that impacts on heart and lungs. How is a person who is looking at selecting a dog without problems to know which is the best? Where is the info which tells breeders which dogs have had to have surgery and had problems - and not had problems or produced dogs with problems to enable them to profile a pedigree to select dogs which are best for the breed? The MDBA is collecting data re health and welfare from owners and some breeders free of charge and adding this info into the pedigree system and putting the good and the bad on the face of the pedigree to enable people coming behind to know what is in the ancestry. In case no one has noticed some breeders often dont like to share such things and will even tell fibs to protect their reputations. How does this help the breed? This is one reason puppy buyers receive free membership and why owners provide more info about what is really going on. Also in an ideal world those which are champs will have no problems but only providing info re whether a dog is a champ on a pedigree isnt going to help when breeding for health issues.

Yep - too easy to blame the judges all the time. At the end of the day we are breeding them supposedly for the betterment of the breed.

While we are talking about that which should not be talked about should also say back in the days when fertility and ability to reproduce meant something - good mothers were bred more often than rotten mothers and they kept their daughters - more daughters who were good mothers better for the breed so it was a good thing - now you're not even supposed to talk about it because its about money grabbing.

Look its not about not breeding certain breeds its about breeding them with a bit of a nose - either breed them with a bit of a nose or have them interfere and if anyone needs to be told why - its time they had a rethink.

Doesnt really matter because in some states its illegal to breed back to back every time. I just like to keep the science engaged before we all forget it.

There have been scientific studies to show that it is detrimental for bitches to skip heat cycles. Once you have begun to mate a bitch that you should NOT skip any heat cycles until she is completely finished breeding. A bitch is said to be "finished" breeding when her litter size is drastically decreased. The study involved following females that were bred every heat cycle and females that were bred every other heat cycle. After they were "finished" breeding, the bitches were spayed and their uterus dissected. Those showing most stress, and damage of the uterus were the females that were bred "every other" heat cycle. Part of the rational that skipping heat cycles is harmful stems from the fact that with consecutive heat cycles there is no "flushing action" of the uterus, that normally occurs by having a litter of puppies. The female will go through Estrus no matter if she is bred or not and by breeding a healthy bitch back to back, can lesson the chances of the female experiencing pyometra, infections and false pregnancys. The choice to breed or not, should be contingent upon the goals the breeder has and for sure the mental and physical health of the female, above all else. http://www.everythin...ew_page_195.htm 1. J.P. Verstegen III and K. Onclin. Prolactin andAnti-Prolactinic Agents in the Pathophysiology and Treatment of Mammary Tumorsin the Dog. NAVC Proceedings 2006, North American Veterinary Conference (Eds). 2. Canine Pseudopregnancy: A Review (Last Updated:23-Aug-2001) C. Gobello1, P. W. Concannon2 and J. Verstegen III3, RecentAdvances in Small Animal Reproduction, Concannon P.W., England G., VerstegenIII J. and Linde-Forsberg C. (Eds.) 3. Donnay I, Rauis J & Verstegen J – Influence desantécédents hormonaux sur l'apparition clinique des tumeurs mammaires chez lachienne. Etude épidémiologique. Ann. Med. Vet. 1994, 138, 109-117 4. Simón Martí Angulo Clinical aspects of uterine disease inthe bitch and queen. Proceeding of the Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 2-4, 2009. S. Romagnoli, How I Treat… Pyometra. Proceeding of the SEVC Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 17-19, 2008 –Barcelona, Spain 5 Davidson AP, Feldman EC. Ovarian and estrous cycleabnormalities. In: Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds) Textbook of VeterinaryInternal Medicine. WB Saunders, 2004 6 Johnson CA. Cystic endometrial hyperplasia, pyometra, andinfertility. In: Ettinger SW, Feldman EC (eds). Textbook of VeterinaryInternal Medicine WB Saunders, 1992, pp. 954.

I do what I have to do to comply with the law and the code of ethics - never ever done anything else doesn't mean I cant say what the truth is and whats best for dogs.

Because you need to have back to back litters? Because you need to start breeding ASAP? Because a bitch can have unlimited litters until a vet finally ticks her off as no more? Mmmhmm. Thats not to do with what is best for the bitch thats to do with money no way you paint it. Unless you have a super rare dog with a limited gene pool and you need more individuals to keep the breed alive that excuse doesn't float with me. Because the science says breed them young and breed them often - no point in being educated on canine reproduction by animal rights and mythology.

The stated reason for the discussion paper is to try to get some action going to increase the welfare and quality of life of dogs. Every brachy dog has BOAS to some degree, Some have it to a greater degree than others and because the extreme brachy head has developed relatively slowly it has resulted in the desensitization of society to the resultant welfare issues.Most People don't see anatomically deformed dogs as shocking nor is it seen as abnormal. People buying dogs of some breeds are simply told what the risks are with the breed because of its look and expected to live with it and they do. Many breeding them don't seem to care that they are producing animals which will live with health issues and "muzzle relatively short" in a breed standard has become for some a head like a bowling ball. Purebred CC breeders deny they breed dogs which suffer dueto brachy head and not enough record keeping or information is available to prove that they do or don't , though we do know that at least some do and that all brachy head breeds have brachy head syndrome to some degree and a quicklook at websites telling us about what dogs they are using for breeding sort of dumps some of them in it a bit. Someone is breeding them so I Hope there are some good submissions going in which show what's being done.

Gotta get your moneys worth from a bitch, darn that CC and their limitations. Nothing to do with money if we are talking about the science - its about what's best for the bitch.

We have seen photos of puppy farm bitches which we are told are over bred thats no evidence they are and the fact is that its actually not bad for a healthy bitch to have litters every heat season. Just saying.

Over breeding a female ? How? Do you mean more often that the CC says you should or the science of the species said you should?

You cant tell by looking at a bitch how old she is or how many litters she has had.

Also its already in the legislation in Victoria where they can if they want simply add in conditions and genetic issues to be banned without needing to go through a process.

Yeah well the reality is that brachy head breeds are seen as suffering due their conformation and if that isnt dealt with by the CC it will be dealt with via legislation. What ratbags are saying may have some impact but not much in my opinion - you have to fight the science and the veterinarian profession if you want to say its not true .

Cavs are one of the breeds cited in the discussion paper for brachy head and syringomyelia. Personally I cant see how its going to be held back but I dont think its going to happen overnight. Several problems associated with the whole thing - on one hand the purebred dog world have to be seen to be doing something to address it and so far there isnt much to show. Large consequences for the breeds no matter what comes next. and I do think it will be eventually legislated in Victoria if they continue as they have.

Quote from the paper - Brachycephalic dogs are those dogs with a wide and short head.3 Brachycephalic breeds include the Pug, French Bulldog, English Bulldog, Boxer, Boston Terrier and Pekingese. Brachycephalic dogs are increasingly popular, two brachycephalic breeds (Pug and Cavalier King Charles Spaniel*) were among the top ten pedigree dog breeds listed in the 2012 Australian National Kennel Club (ANKC) registration statistics.22 Registrations for breeds such as the French Bulldog and Boston Terrier have doubled between 2008 and 2012.22 The significance of the deleterious impact on the health and welfare of brachycephalic head shape is widely supported in the veterinary/welfare literature.  In Australia although the exact prevalence of disease associated with brachycephaly is unknown it is likely to be a significant problem owing to the popularity of brachycephalic breeds

Heads Up Discussion group has been called and discussion paper is available Seems to be a pretty good kept secret but Victoria are seriously looking at restricting the breeding of brachycephalic dogs and cats Cant find he paper on line but if anyone wants a look I can email it.

So how do you know the bitch was a senior and that she had been bred often?

You had him desexed before he was mature, your vet xrayed an immature puppy and declared he's got ed and hd, what a shemozzle all round that one is. Speak to the breeder, which is what you should have done in the first place before you whipped off his nuts and ruined any chance of correct growth and development. 73% higher incidence of HD where male dogs are desexed before maturity.

So much to say -

Yeah the Maremmas cut the milk bar off pretty early too as they are eager to get back to work but its their choice.

There is a lot to be said for letting things come naturally. The bitch will call all the right shots if you just let her do it and she will get it at exactly the right time for your breed. If she is still feeding them a bit at 6 weeks it’s because her instincts tell her she should. The more the puppies eat normal food the less they will take her milk and it’s a supply and demand thing. The less they suckle the less she has to give them. If you interfere you get the bitch going through a period where she is majorly uncomfortable for several days with a higher risk of mastitis as the milk dries up and the pup being stressed because it’s an almost overnight event rather than one that’s played out for around 5 weeks. Its not just about nutrition as other hormones are excreted during feeding for both Mum and pups. Its learning about how to tell when you are told no and how to get the message that you have to take direction or else. Mum teaches them how to be clean and go out to the toot etc. These things impact on training for manners later on and understanding that just because you want it you can’t always have it. If this is missing its harder to get the message and often shows up later as problem behaviours that need addressing that could have been avoided. For the sake of two weeks why take the risk? Interaction with Mum and the litter between 6 and 8 weeks helps to know their place in a pack and how to greet, interact with other dogs for the rest of its life.