angelsun

There seems to be a difference between not fully formed (as a definition of deformity) and a physical deformity such as cleft, club foot etc. I had a litter with two pups born with intestines outside the body. The first pup born had a severe club foot (front) with the pastern turned inside at a 90 degree angle to the leg. One other pup born with a slight twist to the foot, but the dewclaw had attached to the paw. Turns out, I lost the entire litter but one as they slowly faded. Mommy dog had a low grade infection that when put on antibods finally started to turn around but too little, too late. This was a bitch I had rescued from the co owner and of my breeding....found out later she had a litter similar to mine and all were lost. Same sort of defects. Sisters of this bitch haven't produced any problems like this, nor had any pup mortality, so leads me to think that she was not only harbouring this infection, mild enough to not cause big symptoms or change in temp so much to be suspicious, but had this infection for quite some time over two litters and 18 month time period.

After being told three weeks ago that my test was being run with 180 other that WEEK and still no results, I"ve told ASAP to get stuffed and contacted another company. I would normally go to the source for this test (VWD) but Vetgen won't accept swabs from here (not sure why, my money is as good as anyone elses!) At least if I used them, I would have had results back in a fortnight....am crossing fingers that my bitch doesn't come into season within the next month as her results are pivotal as to what male I"m going to use.

There's been how many litters born since tail docking? There is also 'bad luck' to be tossed into most scenarios. Ask most Dane breeders if they have been doing it long enough, of the injuries out there. Danes have a good thick tail, much like most natural tailed Dobes and yet they split, break etc on a regular basis probably because they have such wag enthusiasm! There will always be arguements about such things as coat coverage, tail thickness for example, to try to back up justification for mandatory docking on traditionally docked breeds, but I will continue to say, they simply don't fly. The GP tail is finer than their younger cousin the Dobe and yet we don't have the injuries...why? I had Manchesters, not normally docked and yet they have a thinner tail (structure) and less coat coverage than the GP and yet we had few if any tail injuries and the ONLY documented case of amputation on a Manchester, that I am privy to, was because of a dog attack. The arguement goes on to talk about tail carriage and set....Manchesters carry their tail off their croup lower than any of the pinschers and the tail is to sweep out and low, which would assume be a prime target for abuse and injury, compared to many of the natural tail dobes I have seen, which firstly, have a higher tail SET (to be correct to the standard) and carry their tail above their back (based on how it's positioned on their hind end) thus raising the tail to a height which would logically place the tail out of danger in many cases (unless it's being smashed on overhead door jams perhaps?) I've watched the docked tail debate for many years with the UK being one country that created influence with us in North America by bringing in their anti docking laws....watched many in the traditionally docked breeds attempt to form a database to back up the 'injury' arguement, however it simply hasn't worked, because there simply isn't justification in that arguement. I've seen more tail injuries in gundogs (labs/goldens/setters) than I have seen COMBINED in the formerly traditionally docked breeds. **Please don't forget for a moment, that I'm PRO docking.....it's not about some lame excuse as to why we need to dock..it's about losing my RIGHTS to dock!

I think if you check your breed standard, you will see there is more alike than not alike..I"m the first to scream about the differences in topline and heads for example, between the breeds however my breed is as active if not more than the average Dobe and thus probably more suceptible to injury if we're talking tails....these two breeds wag their tails with equal enthusiasm and when you look at the structure of the tail, they are the same. We are not discussing the differences that layback in shoulders will make as to whether a tail is more likely to be injured or not, nor are we discussing shape of feet that will influence this sort of thing...we are discussing whether tails should or should not be docked..I think they should, however I will not state that using the excuse that they MIGHT be injured is enough of a reason, compared to the reality that they are a traditionally docked breed and I simply like the look better....for some reason....the pro dockers seem to feel they must fall back on this, and use half put together statistics to back it up...what is wrong with simply and honestly stating that you like the look of it better....full stop.....that because of that, we should be able to continue to present our breeds in this manner... I don't have injury stats to back up any statements by me to support docking, nor will I manufacture them....the arguement is valid by those that own non traditionally docked breeds with similiar if not identical tail structures and yet they are neither traditionally docked nor suffer overly with injuries. In my opinion, the arguement of busted tails by those with docked breeds is weak at best, hence why I have never abided by it....I simply state the truth...history shows the breed this way, tradition continued and now some politician somewhere out there says we're wrong for continuing a method over a hundred years.

Unfortunately this is why we with docked breeds have had such problems...because so many others don't care about other breeds....we forget, that right now, we have lost the right to crop and dock because some people out there are louder and have made some rules in an area they either don't understand or unqualified to comment on.....for those of you with undocked breeds....be patient, one day you will have your right to keep your breed as you originally fell in love with it, challenged....and then will anyone else care that you have a problem? Probably not. I'm all for keeping records and documenting the new issues that have come with not docking, however ALL data needs to be recorded or it simply means nothing and is empty data. It becomes a very one sided arguement if we can not back up the docking cause, with FULL support data. It's like submitting a thesis and not having to argue it.....all it becomes is a lengthy series of words, a good story if you will. As a result, means really nothing. To throw a wrench into this debate, and remember..I'm very much PRO docking.....to date, we have no documented cases of severe tail injuries to my breed (another pinscher breed) Sure we have kinks/hooks/bends etc that pop out at birth, and if we could dock, we would make them disappear....now they are out there for the world to see. We have had a few natural bob tails born in this breed, clearly a birth defect and cause for concern as I have to wonder how this will affect the spine and mobility in maturity, but time will tell on that one. Globally, and remembering that this breed has been denied docking rights in quite a few countries for some time now, we have no documented case of amputation due to injury, or injury resulting in restraint/confinement of the tail (breaking, splitting etc) Anyone that has been around the GP, knows fully well how hard they can slap with that tail and how much it stings if you get one across the face, so that same tail hitting a door frame no doubt will be damaged to some degree, at this point however, they haven't been. Does this mean, because we aren't fighting injury after injury, that I am resigned to state that docking is not needed? No....it means I am glad that the dogs are not going through pain and discomfort because of a political decision, but I'll still push where I have to push, to be permitted to dock my breed as it was intended to be.

This at just four weeks of age, I knew that she was something special. Luna is now six and a half months old. As a baby, with only a few shows under her belt, she nabbed a Baby in Group and a Sweepstakes win. She came out to the three day shows in Benalla, being elibible for points and went BOB the first day, and picked up three Minor in Group wins, putting her on top of the Rising Star comp for her breed. She's ranked high in State and National as well in that comp.

I have never been one of those that has a traditionally docked/cropped breed to use the excuse "they injure their tails if they are left long". I simply believe strongly that my breed should be docked....traditionally it was docked....historically they are docked and I take offense with anyone that owns a non docked breed, that feels they have the right to comment that my preference in tail length is wrong or the proceedure to have it done is cruel. I also prefer the cropped ear. I used to crop at 7-8 weeks with a vet in sterile conditions, unlike some that used their kitchen table, antiquated drugs and butcher techniques, and yet, I'm classified as the same for doing this proceedure. I never got an ear infection during healing, never had any problems and yet I'm classified the same as the kitchen cropper/breeder that slaps the pups on high antiboditics and has screaming pups for weeks as they heal. To the owners of non traditionally cropped breeds, they see what we do and plaster us all with the same brush of cruelty. They truly believe we are barbarians because we LIKE the look. It's got NOTHING to do with function and safety, and sorry I won't back up that arguement with the other docked/cropped breeders out there, but I never have and won't start now....I simply LIKE the look and believe that my breed was designed to utilize these two cosmetic proceedures to create the breed I fell in love with. For those that have full tail breeds that have never been altered....you are entitled to love your breed because of that feature, but you have no right to dictate to me, that I am cruel or wrong to continue to like a docked tail or pointy upright ears.

I had warm fuzzy feelings when I first began communicating with ASAP however I'm losing patience and can't recommend them at this point in time. I requested swabs for two separate dogs to do a total of four tests (two per dog) I received one set of swabs (with the bar code stickers) So went ahead and sent off the swabs for the one dog, with another request for another test kit. This was back mid November. My check is not cashed, I have not received the second test kit, and two emails later asking where my results are, as they are needed to determine breeding plans which are due to happen within a month or so, I"m told a test kit is on the way, and my tests were being run......this was almost two full weeks ago, and I have received neither a test kit, nor the results of my dogs test. My check as of this date still hasn't been processed yet, so it's doubtful I"ll receive any kits or results for some time. I will probably have to find another company to deal with which is a shame as they do have good prices, but the best prices in the world with 3 month waiting times for results (maybe) just isn't worth it.

Tassie has interclub trials and I'm heading back there in a month or so to offer advanced/excellant instruction for both triallers and trainers to ensure that the stations are taught and performed correctly. Canada has introduced some new signs and I"ll hopefully have them in my hands shortly to send out to those clubs that I've done work with, and of course the ANKC reps, to ensure that when this is recognized, we're up to speed completely. As for other states..I'm giving up on Victoria..they can't seem to pull their finger out and either organize nor attend a seminar as well as the reps flatly stating they don't like the sport and yet when further questioned, know nothing about it.

On a young toy sized breed, a grade one patella can and often will strengthen to the point that even under manipulation, often will not displace. This can take quite a while as the tendons strengthen and the muscles around the leg mature and sound up. I would not be tossing this boy out, not for a long shot, nor rule him out in the long run even with a grade one, if he is an otherwise excellant representative of the breed. I can't find whether you mention it was in one leg or both...this also will make a huge difference in my opinion. I would also seek out a second opinion. Jed, I think youre confusing slipping patella with Leggs Perthes which is the deformation of the femoral head and in fact a completely different situation and yes, desex would be the only option and surgery would probably have to happen depending on the severity of the deformation.

Many judges have told me to my face in the ring whilst judging my full tailed dogs, that they work hard to ignore the tail but will admit to liking the breed better with a docked tail. This backs up almost all of the judges that examine the dog, that grasp the tail low where it would be docked. I've won plenty with tailed dogs however I"ll still prefer the docked look, regardless of rules and standards and opinions.

Because a vet clinic is a swarm of potential germs, my pups don't visit unless they absolutely have to! As the next pup is being born and mom is busy, I quickly nip the dews off and apply clotting substance (depends what I have as I normally used silver nitrate sticks before now will use the crystals) Mom isn't any the wiser, pups don't care.

Well done Luna for a reward I'll make you treats I'll tell her when she wakes up from being zonked on the couch....she's knackered! The girls LOVE their aunties treats!!

Group 5 RUBIG was the Puli Group six Minor (again) was my little Luna! (three in a row!) Tommyspazz....Tony showed the stunning Marnie as her human mom and normal handler was limping on a bad foot and our Bekki was out with an ear infection. Marnie picked up BOB and Junior in Group!

Micheals white standard Poodle was BIS today Sammy was BIG and Rottie RUBIG for 6 Pinscher minor in group neo puppy in group

Utility winner was the Open Rottie and runner up was the Alaskan Malamute Puppy in group-Neo Minor in group-Pinscher The Borzoi won the hound group

I was looking into the rules re: docking/cropping/debarking, and surprisingly enough, found a rule that states, should the proper paperwork be done, a cropped dog can be exhibited, however it is highly unlikely that the dog would be rewarded based on the tradition of non cropping here in this country. Docked tails will eventually be unable to be shown if the fashion follows some European countries where a time was put on any dogs born after a certain date, imported or not, if docked, would not be permitted to be exhibited.

I don't have any great clear photos but you can see in this one, the blankets are brought up the sides and held in place by the pig rails (to prevent losing pups under them if the mother digs around a bit)

I used to get my puppy collars from the "dollar" store...they were cheap cat collars really with small plastic clips and adjustable. take off the bell and poof, cheap collar (as implied, they were a buck a peice) Wonder if the Reject Shop or some other store like it, might have something similar? I like the pupcolours...have used them in the past. VERY nice

My old whelping pen was a wire one, which meant I could pull the blankets through the bars and use clamps (found in hardware store) to secure it. As well, the pig rails helped keep the blanket in place as they were not attached but fit snuggly into it, after I lay down the clean blanket. Kept bitches from digging and flipping stuff around and burying pups. I used carpet on the bottom after the whelp was done, and covered with blankets for washing daily. Very clean and good to walk on (I use polar fleece as it won't catch nails on pups) As well, about two weeks into things I roll up small towels and place under the blanket to get the pups used to crawling over things to get where they think they need to be.

Exactly....when I had my German Pinscher spayed in September, I got a call from the vet asking if I wanted the tattoo in her ear or not..I said no...no drama....then I got thinking....with the keyhole surgery used (1.5cm incision) and a healthy bitch that healed well...who would have ever known she was spayed? answer: I WOULD

I agree that some of the best producers are plain and in many ways, can't attain a title because of their flashy sibling that competes regularly against them, however the question simply is...if this top producer does in fact produce, who decided? It wasn't the judge was it? This goes into what I have ALWAYS said....no judge or series of judges will determine for me, where my breeding program goes or who I use. Titles are NOT required to breed a dog and therefore we do this show thing as a hobby if you will for the glory of our own egos. The dogs don't care...they get fed anyway, win or lose (for the most part) If we are not however judging breeding potential, why take the offspring of a plain dog/bitch into the ring, unless we are aiming to show that the exhibit meets the breed standard. If the exhibit meets the breed standard and is agreed by a number of judges which hand out challenges and invisible points, then the owner/breeder probably will continue to incorporate the exhibit in the breeding program or allow others to do so, in the case of the stud dog. By exhibiting in shows, we agree when we sign our entries to abide by the rules set out by the canine councils. One of these rules concerns exhibiting desexed animals, therefore the one that signed the entry, has not only lied about the condition of the exhibit they are showing, but is breaking the rules that are laid out for everyone to abide by. The rules are there and apply to everyone. I realize there are always "special" people out there that think the rules do not apply to them, however they are wrong...the sooner they are outted the better as far as I'm concerned.

yes, disappointing about that....with the date change, I'm not sure I can make it as I think I"m due in Tassie to teach a Rally seminar

Lets go back a minute....HISTORY says dog shows were first started to assess potential breeding stock in gundogs primarily, hence why we started with sporting and non sporting (any breed that did not fit the sporting dog group of characturistics) Dog shows DO in fact assess potential breeding stock....many won't breed a dog/bitch til it's titled, however that opens a new arguement about whether you the owner/breeder knows more about your dog/bitch than a bunch of strangers that have a badge and have been hired to give out slips of paper...another debate though. There are many dogs out there with titles that no only do not conform to the standard but have glaring breed specific faults, and yet they compete and win challenges and in many cases, titles. There are many dogs out there with serious health problems (the word is problem, not fault as used correctly based on the breed standard which does not for any breed, list any health issues that would disqualify a dog from being exhibited) This is were it gets interesting....owners know of the dog with bad hips or a heart problem, and choose to show them. Owners know about the very serious fault and either cover it, or take a chance and not show under a breeder judge and hope for the points.....owners know of the dog they want to get a title on because they want to breed from it, and the only way to do that is stick in some substandard ones for it to beat, or find shows where it's a single entry and hope for the best. Owners show desexed dogs in the regular classes to obtain another title. Why do owners do these things? Motivations vary as we can well imagine and this is not the thread to debate them. The question asked if showing a desexed bitch is wrong (in the regular classes) Short answer is yes....regardless of how some may want to spin the rules....it is wrong and cheating. Do we actually judge our dogs for breeding potential or are we looking at what they really are right here and right now? That also is up to interpretation isn't it....I'm quoting historical facts about where judging started...yes it's changed...for right or wrong isnt' the question at hand either, but simply following the rules as laid out in our sport/hobby/pastime. I know of desexed animals being shown...bitches spayed and dogs with testicle implants....I know of dogs winning best in shows with hip scores of the highest magnitude you can imagine. I know of dogs with heart conditions, gastro conditions and dogs that have passed along hereditary issues such as clefts and epilepsy.....question raised as to whether we should provide a health cert, when we show dogs....it's not a bad idea really, but it won't solve health issues in the breeds, because as we know, you do not HAVE to obtain a title to breed a litter.....however there are places that without a working aptitude certificate, your main register animal is ineligible to reproduce, but many believe that is a violation of rights of the breeder.....can't have it both ways though.

Sorry I cannnot understand the logic of this argument. Surely judging progeny is a more logical way of judging the worth of breeding stock? If this is so, then whether the progeny can be bred or not is irrelevant, we are using the progeny to judge the worth of the parents. No, I don't think wholesale desexing of show dogs would be useful, but I cannot understand the argument which says that just because an animal is desexed it is no longer a worthy representative of what it's parents can produce - i.e. no longer useful in the evaluating of the BREEDING worth of the parents I have to agree with this whole heartedly. I do think that originally, that dogs and bitches for judged for their ability to breed, but once the standards came in, they, the Judges had to judge to a standard. As I keep saying, how can any of us judge a dogs/bitches breeding ability when through a quirk of nature they may both be barren. Other than a Breeders class how do we assess what might happen ?. Whether or not any of us agree that this was why dog shows started, the fact remains that this is history...now like so many things now, we see changes, and it's not a bad thing, however if we were NOT here to judge current BREEDING stock and the potential future of same, why put the rule in place for ALL breeds that males must have two apparently normal testicals decended into the scrotum? Like so many in dogs, the attitude has developed that history and tradition mean nothing, and the new ninety day wonders have the right way of doing things and 'what's your problem with that?' sort of mentality. As for foreign substances...the term "product" is the politically correct one, however the only thing allowed in the coats of ANY breed by the rule book is water. Some countries hold true to this rule, and many judges are death on hair spray. I have personally witnessed a few shihtzu owners being raked across the coals for their use of spray to create the windproof/bend proof topknot that is required, however when pushed and told remove the product or else...they manage to put up a nice topknot without the gunk.....why not do that in the first place? Colour and texture enhancements, whatever words you want to use, are not permitted, but I have yet to see a show in Canada, the USA or here for that matter, where anyone challenges the use of them, as it's considered normal and appropriate, in spite of being against the rules.