Greytmate

That is so tragic. You really have my sympathy Jules, it's so hard to have a dog just taken like that.

My guess is that there were people abusing the system, and so they had to make this change. There are some breeders producing pups that nearly all need surgical treatment to live healthy lives. For instance, some Shar Pei lines produce dogs with eyelid problems that need to be corrected. When people buy the pup they need to be able to afford the surgery. I think its really sad that some purebreed breeders have caused such a concern.

I have already tried to answer that in a previous post.

Why would it fail? The hypothetical test is to determine whether the aggression is 'provoked' or not. It is not a test of what a dog would do if its owner was assaulted. It is a test to see what a dog will do when approached in a way that does not pose any (actual) threat to dog or owner. There are dogs out there in our community now being used for breeding that would fail a test like this. The owners see the trait as desirable, and in my opinion are are totally misinterpreting standards. I also think it's a mistake to think that we should alter a breed in Australia and that it can still be the same breed. Our dogs in the country are mostly a small part of a huge gene pool, and it's not up to us to try to make breeds 'softer' than they should be. But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

But what is a guard dog guarding when it is clearly off its own property? I think the instinct to guard territory is strong in some breeds. It's instinct and it results in DA or HA. It could be argued that this aggression is 'provoked', and is desirable in some situations. Especially if the dog first tries to warn the intruder to back off in an effort to avoid escalating the aggression. I posted up a 'hypothetical test' to test for aggression that goes beyond any normal territorial guarding. They are the dogs I am really scared of. Those dogs have different rules in their head about why they have to be aggressive.

Lets say hypothetically speaking that model is universally agreed upon by various organisations and it becomes compulsory (never mind how this is supposed to be enforced): Does that apply to: Dogs who are going to be used for breeding? Dogs of a specific breed? Dogs who are being considered for importation? Dogs who are in rescue and being considered for euthanasia or rehoming? Dogs who have a DD declaration and it is being contested? Dogs who have been abused and assessed for rehab-or if they fail the test once, euthanasia automatically applies? (Dogs who have a known history of abuse by a specific gender/type, same gender/type does test for instance?) A proposal that all dogs council or kennel registered now have to be assessed ? Who does the test: authorised, qualified (and what qualifications, authorisations are recognised and by what authorities/organisations?) and fees involved? Does the same sort model apply for dogs facing a DD order due to DA or Animal Aggression? Does a small fluffy dog or cat does a walk by(or a more realistic test would be to expose said dog to a jumpy bouncy, quick moving animal as so frequently happens in real life) by a dog and if they do any of the above they then are considered to have potential for a dangerous dog order therefore not suitable for rehoming and automatically euthanised? (and that is regardless of breed, so if you have a sighthound or working dog for example, there are no consdieratons made for what that dog was historically bred for? (Actually, this happened to people I know who wanted to adopt the unwanted next door neighbours dog. Friend went to RSPCA to adopt, dog apparently failed cat test because in ran at (lunged) at a cat through the fence even though it is highly likely it was first time he saw a cat, but was considered unsuitable for rehoming and was euthanised). How stringent does the proposed model be, do dogs have to pass a cat, poultry, dog, guinea pig test? After all, if a dog attacks/maims/kills any of those as there has been instances where this has appeared enough to have a Dangerous Dog declared. Even now the problem not so much lies with regulations/rules, but interpretation of those already in place; subjective nature of those rules and those who are apparently qualifed enough to be the chosen ones who apply those regulations/rules. Anway, I guess I've once again strayed off topic because the poll is: AnywayIf the breed standard for some breed calls for HA or DA temperament, what should be done? Ban importation of the breed Require special licensing for owners of the breed Nothing. Other (please clarify) and again my answer is it is so simple to merely alter the wording of the standard and this becomes null and void. Hmm, you have gone a bit off-topic. (Although your questions are other good topics too)For the purposes of this thread, I am just trying to define "human aggression" in dogs. Let's imagine that there was a strong genetic trait caused by a certain combination of genes that led to the dogs that possessed that combination being very likely to fail that "human aggression" test. I didn't list them, but there is a much larger list of other behaviours a dog could show as an alternative to the ones that would fail the test. Question for discussion - Is that level and type of aggression acceptable in dogs being produced in this country? Should the production and sale of those dogs be unlimited? The Fila is banned, but are there other breeds in this country where that level of aggression is seen as desirable?

I'll have a go at defining the type of aggression we are talking about. Unprovoked Human Aggression- The dog with the handler, in an area not regarded by the dog as terrritory. Calm and on lead and a controlled environment where the dog is not exposed to any any usual causes of stress, and no other people or animals can enter environment. A strange person approaches dog, brisk pace, no eye contact, approaches at 45 degree angle, stops 1.5 metre short of handler. Is there any of the following behaviour in the dog? Lip lifting, or bared teeth? Growling or barking? Lunging towards and attempting to bite? Lunging forwards and biting? The strange person after 20 seconds raises back of hand slowly towards, and under the dogs nose, staying 200mm clear of dog. Does the dog exhibit any of those behaviours? If the answer is yes to any of those behaviours, the dog is displaying unprovoked human aggression. Are people happy to define it like that? Or do they have a better way to describe the type of aggression that we are talking about?

Pretty colours.

I agree with this and find some of the arguments people are putting forward (here and in other threads) against you quite alarming. Aggression breeds aggression and unprovoked aggression isn't protection, it's extremely anti-social and affects others in the community. It seems as though there is a market of dog buyers wanting a pet that will really intimidate, scare and repel people. That isn't something we need in Australian suburbs.

If you don't want people making comments about your dog's aggressive behaviour, it would be better not to post descriptions about its aggressive behaviour on a public forum. You are out of line with your comments about dog aggression being desirable. It isn't desirable, it's anti-social and turns people against dogs. It is horrible to think there is a whole club of people breeding for anti-social traits in large powerful dogs. And the most ignorant thing is you trying to convince everyone else here that unprovoked dog aggression is somehow desirable. If you convince too many people in our community that it's normal for a GSD to be dog aggressive, they will want the breed banned. If that happens, we can only blame the people breeding for this trait.

It's a UK breeder.

Write to the supervisor and advise them that that worker is not to return to your property under any circumstances. She has offended you and ignored instructions not to open the gate or to enter the yard where the dog is. Be quite explicit in your instruction that she is not to return to your home at all for any reason. I wouldn't back down an inch. Think about why this woman decided to report your dog rather than just keep away from the dog or to request to work at a different home. That is really nasty and I would not trust her not to hurt the dog or try something else when she finds her 'report' has not brought any action. Keep a record of all the incidents, and keep them up your sleeve to pull out and take further should the supervisor not respect your wishes.

There are breeds that were developed to provide protection in certain circumstances. Those circumstances, where we need a dog that will act like a specialised weapon and aggressively protect, are rare in this country. They do exist for some farmers and other specialised occupations though. Maybe there should be permits similar to gun permits that farmers and others can apply for. It isn't reasonable in our community to own one of these weapons for personal protection, and they need to be kept out of the hands of anti-social or aggressive people. I think we need special laws for people that breed with individual dogs with temperament or other serious flaws. Same as we have for manufacturers that produce dangerous products and release them on to the market. A standard calling for unprovoked aggression is not required or desirable for a pet dog in Australia. Are there breeds here that have this in their standard? Over the history of dogs, many breeds and types have become popular or become extinct in certain locations. There is no obligation for the Australian community to accept the presence of dangerously aggressive dogs or to keep a healthy sized-gene pool, just because a breed once had a reason to exist once in some other type of society.

I'm staggered that you have ever let her off the lead knowing she is aggressive to other dogs? Very dangerous. I have to agree with this. Not only is it very dangerous to other dogs but allows the behaviour to be reinforced. I am really glad for the dog's sake that you have got help and are willing to put in the work. But you do realise that this is a dog that should never again be off-lead in public areas? That is part of the responsibility of owning an aggressive dog.

Sounds too pricey. UPenn DNA tests for MPSIIIB are $US75, and that's a specialised patent. CC Well there you go, you have answered your own question. Why did you ask what we thought the cost might be if you already knew how much it could be done for?

I don't understand the relavancy of my your question. If you doubt my probity because of my nationality/residency, whatever that might be, then why would you believe my answer to your question? It is obvious that I have upset a number of members here because I have told them that a product that they have faith in has been mis-sold to them by the makers (not necessarily the resellers). Perhaps their ire should be vented at Angels eyes/Angels Glow etc and not the person that tried to warn the trusting and unsuspecting customers. Users that want to abide by the law need only to phone the number in the following link and ask if it is legal to give products containing tylosin tartare to dogs or cats without a prescription http://www.apvma.gov.au/about/contact/index.php If you do and they tell you that it is legal then feel free to lambaste me. I perfectally understand my question. If you are person living in another country it MAY be your rules but not in Australia. 1. It "could" be interpreted by your posts that you may have a real problem with the product. I don't. 2. It "could" be interrupted that you "may" work for a rival company. 3. It "could" also be interrupted that you may also be stirring up publicity for this product. Until your position is declared I shall have no further communication with you. I shall also continue to use this fantastic product. Why does it matter who Dazla is? Is there anything to prove that Angel Eyes does contain tylosin tartrate? Is Angel's Glow being retailed in Australia? If the products sold here do not contain tylosin tartrate then it doesn't matter whether that drug is legal or not. Dazla, how do you know that products being imported under those labels do contain this drug? If your interest is in warning unsuspecting customers, could this be done more effectively by simply reporting the product to the authorities yourself? I will happily declare my position. Somebody that is against the abuse of antibiotics, with no conflict of interest.

The whole wide world doesn't know or care about a change in administrative procedures down at the CCCQ office. Members and other interested parties will get that message instead. People that may already suspect that some members are doing the wrong thing and hiding their identity to avoid the consequences of their actions. And they will get an even stronger message that the organisations are engaging in risk management by taking basic steps to verify who their members are. That is a good thing for everyone.

Registered breeding greyhounds are all DNA certified so the parentage can be verified. Around $100 per breeding animal to have a certificate issued (It may have gone down in price) If there is a suspicion in a particular litter, the progeny DNA could be easily checked, otherwise no need to certify every pup bred. It's affordable (considering the prices that pups are sold for), and I think it should be introduced for all registered breeds.

What info? The info they are already providing? Their name and address? Unless they are providing false information right now, verifying their identity will not alter the data held about them. It wouldn't allow data matching that couldn't happen anyway, and it wouldn't reduce the obligation the registering bodies have under the privacy act. If breeders do not trust the registering bodies to keep their information secure, how do buyers verify who they are dealing with should the deal be disputed?

Goodness, how very dramatic....asking people for the same information they provide to set up an account at the local video store is to much to ask Dog Showers? I agree. Anyone would think they had something terrible to hide. Steve a couple of days ago you were arguing that if a breeder is registered then it is a way that a puppy buyer can verify who they are dealing with. Kennel prefix can be matched with an individual responsible for the prefix. Now you are arguing that the registering bodies shouldn't be required to verify the identity of people obtaining prefixes? You can't have both. Where is the most basic consumer protection for puppy buyers? I can understand why you want life to be as easy as possible for good breeders, but buyers are going to be much better protected buying dogs from registered businesses than they are from hobbyists that do not properly identify themselves.

He wasn't protecting you from anything. There was no threat to you at all. If your dog was feeling that threatened by a loose dog, it must be a very nervous dog and that is a fault in any breed. Dogs with good nerves don't need to 'nearly eat' other dogs that approach it. Taking your dog unmuzzled into an environment where you know there may be loose animals is pretty irresponsible. Expecting everyone else to just accept your dog's dangerous aggression is even worse. I have seen plenty of well-bred shepherds that are calm and politely interested (or disinterested) around strange new dogs. Don't expect me to believe that those dogs are the faulty ones and yours is the desirable type. I would really like to say what I think of you and this post of yours, but I won't because it would get me banned. :D Aggressive personal attacks will get you banned. Just like your dog was from the vet's waiting room. Good on you for not posting and showing us that you have the self-restraint that your dog doesn't have. You might want to muzzle your dog too.

He wasn't protecting you from anything. There was no threat to you at all. If your dog was feeling that threatened by a loose dog, it must be a very nervous dog and that is a fault in any breed. Dogs with good nerves don't need to 'nearly eat' other dogs that approach it. Taking your dog unmuzzled into an environment where you know there may be loose animals is pretty irresponsible. Expecting everyone else to just accept your dog's dangerous aggression is even worse. I have seen plenty of well-bred shepherds that are calm and politely interested (or disinterested) around strange new dogs. Don't expect me to believe that those dogs are the faulty ones and yours is the desirable type.

I have a dog aggressive dog, if she ever attacked a dog, i would blame me - not her. My options: have her PTS or keep her and keep her and others safe. I am aware of her problems and it is my choice to keep her, so it is my job to keep her safe from other dogs. I know what she can and can not handle and will never put her in the position where she feels threatened by another dog. I dont believe the problems that are being talked about have anything to do with the dog, it is the OWNER. All of us who own dogs should know what they can and can not cope with and all of us should do everything we can to keep them safe. If i could not handle my girl I would have had her PTS, no questions asked. As should anyone who can not handle the problems that their dogs have. My boy can get a bit freaked out in crowds, if i am dumb enough to let him into that situation than how is that his fault? Sadly I can not see things changing anytime soon, people are becoming more and more scared of bull breeds and it breaks my heart and I really dont know what the answer is to fix it. Why would you even think of putting your girl to sleep just because she's DA, the problem is many people including vets seem to think that DA dogs are dangerous. GSD's are DA,but that doesn't stop them being wonderful loyal family pets. I know what mine are like so I keep them on a short lead, but it's the moron owners in this world who are the real problem. I was sitting at the vets a few years ago with my GSD boy when this fool walks in and lets their dog run strait over to my boy who nearly ate this dog and the vet told me to go outside. Another time at the same vets I was sitting with my Rottie who is not DA, when another moron comes in and you guessed it let their dog jump on my Rottie who growled and snapped at this dog and this stupid woman called my girl dangerous. I have never seen DA as a problem,but I have seen many irresponsible owners so please don't blame your dogs. :D Poorly bred GSD's can be DA, but good GSD's aren't DA in the slightest. Who the morons are IMHO in regard to DA GSD's are the people who breed them, a testament that they shouldn't be breeding GSD until they know what they are doing? I agree. GSDs with the correct temperament (and adequately socialised and trained) will not be dog aggressive and will not 'nearly eat' another dog that approaches it while it is on lead with its owner in a public place. A dog like that should be kept away from places where other dogs are likely to approach them, unless they are muzzled or prevented from being able to bite. No wonder we have breed prejudice against this breed when some owners are so accepting of their dog's OTT aggression and blame anybody but themselves when their dog is upset by a situation they have placed it in. In any breed you can get DA examples, but the type and threshold of DA is determined largely by genetics, and some breeds contain many more examples of DA dogs than others. Breeding DA dogs and selling them as pets is irresponsible. It is good to see owners like Teebs understand their dog and go to considerable personal effort to ensure it stays out of trouble.

What side of Brisbane are you on? A good dog training school may be the way to go. Your dog's behaviour isn't abnormal or dangerous, he just needs to learn a bit of obedience, respect and social skills.

When we go away, Woody and Coco stay with our friend in an apartment in the Valley. They love the apartment life. The friend bought the unit and the business that manages the building, and it took him a long time to find an apartment block that allows large dogs. His dog died, but since then he loves having greyhounds come to stay.