snobbybobby

Thanks Staff'n'Toller, This is my theory also. My neighbour, the conversation with whom prompted me to start this topic, was impressed with the precision of the UD ring etc. yesterday but said she had no desire to "go there". She went along to this particular club to teach her dog manners. Its methods are based on trialling. The general public are told by Vets. (on the radio as well as in practice) to go to the Obedience Club to teach their dogs manners. Block heeling or, for that matter, individual heeling patterns do not necessarily teach a dog manners. Precision heeling is the basic test for CD. Not every dog owner is going to teach their dog from videos, books etc. either. There are, also, numerous cases of dogs who are nervous, fear aggressive etc., and the clubs do not have the expertise to deal with the dogs or the knowledge of whom to refer these dogs to, consequently they are turned away and go on to, god forbid, become more aggessive and PTS.. Clubs should make it their responsibility to at least have a list of people who are behaviourists etc., to whom they can refer dogs with problems. There are maybe 2 pet dog clubs that I know of within driving distance of where I live. At least an hour drive to either. There are 4 trial based clubs in this region with slightly different emphasis between all 4 depending on the expertise and interest of the instructors (all volunteers, I'll freely admit). All but one, as far as I know, teach block heeling in their general classes. As somebody, rightly, said 85% at least of the club members have no interest in trials and only go to socialize their dogs, get bored after a while and leave. I know, in a perfect world, there would be a Trialling Club co-existing with Pet Training Clubs/Schools whatever you like to call them but, in the meantime, surely Jo Public has the right to know the difference.

Thanx everyome! I have found, in my ramblings, that there are two schools of thought. One is intent on competition, the other intent on having a dog fit their family After all "a dog is FOR LIFE not just for Christmas!! Those people who want a dog just for competition don't suit my ideal of dog people. I know where I want to be - in a family situation! My dogs, unashamedly, are my family! <vbg> When I want to compete and "show off my doggy/human skills, I will!!! Please, in the meantime, tell Joe/Josephine Public the difference!

I do like what you say!!! That is, precisely, what I'm trying to get across. The average pet owner goes to a local obedience club for just this purpose, to get his/her dog to associate with people in their environment however you might put it! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!! ]

I went to a local obedience trial today. I saw what went on, I have been part of that scene in the past but, I then went on to try to explain to a neighbour who is a "newby" in the scene what it is all about. To my mind, all the behaviours that are required in the various levels up to OC, are normal behaviours that dogs exhibit and, when living in the same place as humans, essential for happy cooperation including assistance dogs! The trial culture sees that the behaviours are only customized to "human standards" for show! That is what our local Obedience Clubs aim for IMHO! When are they going to teach pet dog training and, not, teach the heeling routine by "block heeling", which, after all is counter-productive to even the best trial standards?? We can teach a dog to walk on a loose lead "to heel" - if you like "pack drive" - fetch an article "retrieving" etc.. Other behaviours like "sit", "drop", "stay" and "stand" have other, obvious safety uses but, what the dogs already know, we tend to use/apply it to our selfish requirements. Comments are welcome. You can call me a "silly old fool" if you like but I still think our clubs are only aimed at presenting the "team" as a show article! Cheers,

Hello Peri, Try www.blackdog.net.au/ This is a company based in Victoria. They have all sorts of clickers and other great stuff. Henrynchlo

[ I was thinking about taking her to a behaviorist and I have looked into it but the one I looked at it wasn’t what I was looking for, it was more of a dog club and I am looking more for a one on one consultation so if anyone has had a good experice with a behaviorist that has fixed this sort of problem I would love to hear from you about it cause its all very confusing to me who to choose and how to go about it. I live in the Melbourne’s eastern suburbs. Hi, I suggest you look at the Delta website for lists of trainers/behaviourists. There would be some in your vicinity, I'm sure. Haven't got the web address to hand but, if you do a Google, you will find it. Dr. Deb. Calnon a vetinary behaviourist she is around Oakleigh way and is one of the best & Dr. Robert Holmes is also in the Camberwell area. Good to hear you are considering getting help It would be so sad to ignore this behaviour and end up with a dog labelled dangerous.

:D Can somebody please tell me the difference in neutralization and socialization. My understanding of neutralization is that the dog learns to ignore/put into the background, etc., stimuli that are "outside" the sphere of the work the dog is doing. Socialization OTOH, to my mind anyway, is getting the puppy used to all sorts of stimuli, eg. passing pedestrian traffic outside a coffee shop, car travel, train travel etc. and other dogs & people likely to be met in the daily activity round etc.. (to name just a few experiences). TIA

Hi petal, Sounds like your off to a good start! Handling on-leash aggression, to my mind anyway, can be tricky! My dog is getting over wounds inflicted by a dog we meet in the park, usually on leash! Said dog pulled the leash out of its handlers grip and took my dog on My dog was on a lunge lead but still got attacked. Previously, the aggressor had been jerked and growled at when she aggressed. Personally, I think the aggression steadily got worse because of that manner of dealing with it. Maybe right, maybe wrong but, I'm a firm believer in distracting the dog by walking away, being ready with a treat to divert the dog's attention and praising the dog when it ignores the subject of his aggression. When you can afford it, get some behavioural advice if you continue to have problems but, in the meantime, practice what you have read from Flying Dog Press. It's good advice and you sound as if you're nipping what could become a problem in the bud :D

Hi, I have two dogs who are clicker trained. My mini schnauzer was very nervous and shy of the clicker at first so I left him inside to watch through the window while I trained the other dog. It wasn't long before he realized that "real good things are happening when that clicker is around" and he came out to join in the fun. He now goes to a mark and lots of other things thanks to the use of the clicker which he learned to associate with yummy treats. Try putting your dog away out of "sharp sound range" to see what you are doing with other dogs. Hope this helps, admittedly, my dog does not respond to thunder but shied at the click initially. Cheers,

I do so agree with Helen. Unfortunately, clicker training gets sneered at in some circles mainly because people don't use it properly or use it without any idea of the theory/philosophy behind the method. Again, as Helen said, there are some really good places in Perth - Northern Suburbs O.D.T.C. where Gina O'Keefe is chief instructor for one.

Hi Jezebel, What a great way to start training your puppy! If you go to www.k9events.com/ an Aussie site, you will finds heaps of info. on clicker training as well as positive reinforcement in general. There are also links to some great sites and information about where you will find trainers in Oz.

If I needed to have somebody train my dog, I would certainly want to be there during the process. I want to maintain a relationship with my dogs purely and simply. From reading the original post on this thread, my first question was - what methods did the so-called trainers use and, did they explain to the owners just what they'd done? The dog sounds particularly traumatized by the experience. I would be going back to the establishment with a list of questions - then to the authorities.

Hi, I don't live in Perth but, Northern Suburbs Ob. Club has an Aus. wide reputation since Gina O'Keefe (Head Instructor) there has been running seminars in the Eastern States. Gina has top trialling results with scores of 199-200 and the club is run using positive reinforcement techniques. Don't ask me where they train exactly but I presume somewhere around the Inglewood, Mt. Lawley areas. :fetch: Henrynchlo

Hello aatainc! First of all let me congratulate you and Dexter on getting his title! Well done!! Secondly, and more importantly , let me congratulate you on doing such a wonderful job in training service dogs. There are always going to be detractors such as racknrune, unfortunately the Internet makes that type of person feel much more powerful On another note - why would they criticize someone for competing using the skills the dog has learned, forgive me for being somewhat simplistic but - if one takes a a look at some of the skills that dogs have to acquire for the UD title for example, "seek back" - looking for something the owner dropped, retrieving dumbells to name a couple, these are behaviours I'm sure would be taught to service dogs. UD & OC don't need dogs to open doors, put washing into the machine and turn off lights BUT geesh! to my mind, they are even more stunning behaviours that are more useful, if not less "showy". Keep up the good work! Henrynchlo

Hello Chezzyr :cool: For a good description and, idea of what we are talking about go to http://www.clickertraining.com/ The method was described first by Karen Pryor in the U.S. and is the same method used to teach mammals in Sea World. If you ever get the opportunity, go to Sea World on the Gold Coast here in Oz or the Melbourne & Taronga Park Zoos to watch trainers use the method, albeit with whistles rather than clicker. The click marks the behaviour required It is based on the science of Operant & classical conditioning and relies on positive reinforcement rather than coercion or punishment To quote from Melissa Alexander's book "Click for Joy" 2003 Pub. Sunshine Books - Page 2. "The technology is, at its core, very simple: 1. Get the behavior. 2. Mark the behavior (clicker or "bridge" word) 3. Reinforce the behavior (treats/toys etc..) For example, if you want your pup to 'sit'. Lure him/her with a treat into a sitting position (get the behaviour). The minute his/her bum hits the floor, click (mark the behaviour) & give him the treat (reinforce the behaviour). The dog has learnt that sitting has earned him a reward. You then put a name (cue) on the behaviour once the animal has it "down pat"! That sounds pretty simple and it is! You can apply the same principles to all sorts of behaviours. The words in brackets are mine! I'd advise you to look at the website mentioned above. A lot of people are using the clicker, unfortunately quite a few do not use it properly and that's where it gets the "flavour of the month" label. There's so much info. on the web. Also go to http://www.K9events.com/ for a wealth of articles on the same subject. It is a huge site with a wealth of information for using positive reinforcement in dog training. :rolleyes: Henrynchlo.

Hello Abbie, While you are waiting for your clicker, why don't you simply use your tongue to make a clicking sound OR use what's known as a "bridge" word such as "good" precisely as the animal performs the behaviour you want, then reward. This is just what the clicker is, a marker! Don't forget the very sound advice that has already been put into this thread, "charge" the clicker when it arrives so that your dog knows what it means - "I did the right thing, now a treat is coming"! :rolleyes: Henrynchlo

Geesh! We're famous Hope the recipe turned out as I hoped when I posted It's the best that my dogs will work for! Henrynchlo

Using food rewards, imho, is only just one part of a reward system for a "job well done". Personally, I find my dogs work for a baked liver/egg/flour/garlic mixture. They go "ape" and so do the shelter dogs where I volunteer. Even the most stressed will take these treats. I also know what goes into them - no preservatives except freezing! As humans we fight for better pay & conditions through unions. Dogs just shut down or go off on their own :fetch:

Hoo **** ray! At last somebody using some common sense!!! I might add, some contact with other dogs or humans might sollve the problem even quicker! Henrynchlo.

Nobody! I just "jumped in" before that word was raised The problem that I see is "human reasoning" being attributed to canine behaviour and the subsequent "profiteering" by certain individuals who lurk on this forum!! Sorry I said anything! It seems to me that any reasoning on behalf of dogs is slammed by the "know alls"!

Hello Kuma, On this I have to agree with pgm (who/whatever he/she is) - for once. My suggestion is, GIVE THE DOG SOMETHING ELSE TO DO! You don't need electronic "stims" to tell the dog its wrong! Don't put "zillions" into the entrepeneur's pockets! The equipment that is sold (for a big profit) is only for a few, VERY SAD cases. For 'dogs sake - think about it'!!! Give the dog bones to chew, sandpits to dig and anything else that takes a dog's mind off "destructive" behaviour after all it's BOREDOM, not revenge, that causes the dog to do what we consider destructive! And, when all else fails, do what the Yanks who found out what dogs do when left home alone, use a crate to contain them, if that's what you think a dog needs. Personally, I think a dog needs to be with other canines or, at the very least, humans and not in a backyard bored and lonely!! How can we possibly attribute revenge to dog behaviour without knowing something of dog psychology??? - "ducking for cover"! Put yourself in the dog's shoes! Henrynchlo (I may be a s***** old f*** but, dogs are worth more than we give ghem credit! )