Simply Grand

I'm unclear what happened, did the bull arab and ridgeback break through the fence out of their own yard to get to the staffies? Or did the staffies get into the yard where the pups were? If the parent dogs got through a fence to go and attack the other dogs that seems much more extreme than a bitch guarding her whelping box/puppy area.

That's the point. Flooding is aimed at showing them that reacting ain't getting you nowhere so you may as well stop reacting. That's why it's so risky, how do you know what is going to happen. I don't think Aidan is advocating flooding...

Hankdog, did you start off by shoving the PB jar in front of Jake before he reached full blown reactivity? I imagine you did and probably still do? So if you turn a corner and a dog is suddenly right there do you shove the PB jar in Jake's face in that split second it takes him to register that there's a dog or within the first couple of barks, before he's reached that point he used to get to before the PB jar, when he wouldn't take treats? (I'm going to assume you answer yes :laugh: ) That means you are catching him in a state of lower arousal, redirecting his focus, and giving him another, highly rewarding and incompatible alternative to reacting to the dog. You've also increased the value of food by not giving him free access, making him work harder to get it when he has the opportunity ie. by staying close, focusing on the jar in the face of the distraction of the other dog. You're also, as I think I've said before, creating a positive associated with the appearance of another dog, ie. his brain goes there's a dog, then the PB jar appears so he starts to, without thinking, register the other dog being there then instead of the next step being react negatively it becomes look for the PB jar. There will be various other things going on too, to do with him learning that he can make decisions and control situations by making a different choice and finding one that is most effective in getting him out of a stressful situation (with is kinda the flip side to learned helplessness). ETA - Aidan, happy to be corrected if I'm off track. And Amax, happy to hear your views as well.

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation. The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result. How do you condition a stressed dog to take treats? Give them a near death experience first? Apparently.

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch. I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house. Working in a shelter, we sometimes (thankfully not too often) have dogs who at first at least just shut down and don't do anything. For a while they will let anyone do anything to them. They are the ones we are most cautious about as they tend to be the ones who get slightly more comfortable when nothing particularly bad happens but still feel the fear then go straight to biting with no warning because they have learned that the warnings get them nowhere. Could be a bit of both there, nothing is black and white. Seligman set up extreme conditions for learned helplessness, and in real life those conditions wouldn't be met. Well, I say that, but as we've seen, some trainers do some fairly extreme things. Indeed some trainers do. It definitely isn't black and white, especially when we often don't know any history in a shelter. I suspect with a lot of our dogs there is an inherited aspect also. Oh I should add, plenty of times the shut down dog realises they are not going to be punished for being scared, can approach and move away as they feel comfortable and start to learn a positive association with whatever they are fearful of and go on to happy lives :)

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation. The punishment for reactivity breaks the drive to attack.....Cesar Milan with his slip leash is subtly air blocking the dog if you watch closely so the dog is more concerned about taking it's next breath than reacting. The dog learns that reacting causes a breathing issue and to avoid that they revise their choice to react and in the process of that, they are exposed to their demons which in face of a calm decoy dog they learn nothing terrible happened by remaining calm themselves. Air blocking is more effective than sharp corrections or prong collars and the like as it doesn't escalate aggression that is air blocking takes the drive out of the dog not increases it. Along with this technique for reactivity, the dog is also rewarded for calm behaviour with treats.......treats are good in monitoring stress levels as stressed dogs won't eat.....if executed properly which not many trainers outside of working dog circles tend to use this technique regularly, dogs when conditioned to accept treats in a calm demeanour in face of other dogs when previously reactive I doubt would be suffering issues of depression or Learned Helplessness as a result. How do you condition a stressed dog to take treats?

That's the strategy you would employ. Thankfully it's not common, more often the reactive behaviour just escalates until the owner or trainer give up on flooding. It's pretty hard to watch. I had a client who had another trainer come and do this with their dog. The trainer was resolute, but he got bitten and had to stop to deal with the injury. So the dog learned to bite, and after that bit everyone in the house. Working in a shelter, we sometimes (thankfully not too often) have dogs who at first at least just shut down and don't do anything. For a while they will let anyone do anything to them. They are the ones we are most cautious about as they tend to be the ones who get slightly more comfortable when nothing particularly bad happens but still feel the fear then go straight to biting with no warning because they have learned that the warnings get them nowhere.

Good question. Usually with a dog who has been punished for aggression you will see something eventually. The classic example is the dog who doesn't bark or lunge, but will bite if pressed. An animal with learned helplessness looks depressed and doesn't do anything to change their situation. Thanks Aidan. Also makes me think of resource guarders who have been punished for growling and therefore go straight to biting if forced to fight for a really valuable resource. Am I right in thinking that a dog can un-learn helplessness if taught (and permitted) alternative options? Amax, you've said yourself that in your experience reactive dogs tend to be the weaker nerved, more fearful dogs. I don't understand how you are now moving to reactive dogs are confident that they are infallible in the face of another dog? And that they want to "nail" the other dog?

Aidan, is it possible to determine whether a fear aggressive dog repeatedly punished for reacting to other dogs has stopped the reactive behaviour because they have learned an alternative non-reactive behaviour or because they have developed learned helplessness?

I work all day Sat I'm afraid, otherwise I'd be happy to help

That's easier said than done in many training factions where aversives are not applied to set consequence for inappropriate reactivity. If owners of reactive dogs are reliant on "look at me" training structures and crap like that to provide reliability in face of other dogs, these situations will only manifest into greater problems. It's difficult to find trainers and clubs these days who can address reactivity properly and actually fix it to a reliable level unfortunately. Justice's reactivity has primarily been addressed with positive training methods involving desensitisation and counter-conditioning and his obedience training was all done with positive reinforcement. We also used low level aversives such as vocal reprimands and being removed from situations etc and that was perfectly sufficient for him. Aversives are not a requirement for behaviour modification and should only be used on a case by case basis, looking at the needs of that individual dog and owner. Justice is a very soft dog and would only become frightened or perhaps even shut down with the use of strong aversives. Aversives also aren't particularly conducive to counter-conditioning, given that you're trying to create a positive association with other dogs. That being said, I do agree that refusal to consider aversives when it comes to behaviour modification and training is just as unhelpful as the attitude that aversives are mandatory for success. Also, from what I have seen and heard, most obedience training centres aren't set up to deal with reactive dogs very well anyway and most owners of these dogs would be much better served by gaining assistance from a good behaviourist, either in conjunction with or instead of obedience training.

That's easier said than done in many training factions where aversives are not applied to set consequence for inappropriate reactivity. If owners of reactive dogs are reliant on "look at me" training structures and crap like that to provide reliability in face of other dogs, these situations will only manifest into greater problems. It's difficult to find trainers and clubs these days who can address reactivity properly and actually fix it to a reliable level unfortunately. Ahh, I was actually agreeing with what you were saying until this post, especially the bolded part. There is science to back up building positive associations and teaching alternative responses for reactive dogs and I could name plenty of dogs who have responded well to "that crap". If you're going to ask people to understand and acknowledge that your chosen methods of training can work you might want to open your mind to the fact that other methods can be effective too.

This^^^^ is why I attribute some fault as well on the other owner (not dog) I too have owned a very dominant aggressive male and I was like the above quote. It would of been negligent of me to take him to a dog class, he would have wreaked havok. It was one of those split second moments and I believe that me yanking the lead saved my puppy. Yes, my fault for allowing my pup to enter another dogs space, but (waiting to be jumped on again) if you know your dog has issues then don't put them in a close environment with other dogs. Dogs with issues need training too and how do you know that being in obedience class wasn't part of this dog's development? Should my dog have not been allowed to go to obedience classes because he has issues, just because other people might not pay attention to what their dog is doing? In a training focused environment you generally expect people are keeping an eye on their dog. I'm also not confident that the other dog "meant business" just because it lunged and snapped. Justice would sound terrifying to someone who doesn't know him, when he's doing his reactive display. Even my best friend and my mum were shocked the first time they saw and heard it and he means no harm at all, just wants the other dog to go away and not hurt him. ETA: The dog owner was sitting where other dogs could avoid them. By your own admission your dog would not have gotten in its face if you'd been paying attention and had control of your dog. I know accidents happen and am not trying to paint you as a dreadful person but I'm viewing this from the perspective of someone with a reactive dog who has been on the other end of this sort of situation multiple times. I absolutley agree dogs with issues need training Snook. It occured after the training session, when it's a bit of socialisation time. The owner was very much in the middle of everyone and there dogs. I'm not trying to paint owners of reactive dogs as dreadful, been there, done that with Roofy for 10yrs. If a dog is super reactive, like my Roofy was you have to hyper vigalant and unfortunately expect people to make silly mistakes I agree the owners of reactive dogs need to be super vigilant and fully aware of what is happening at all times in that sort of environment. I also realise people make mistakes and the one or two times that an owner was actually apologetic for not controlling their dog and didn't let it happen again, I was okay with that. The reason I was usually pissed off though was because the vast majority of owners, who had been told explicitly by the trainer to not let their dogs approach us, looked pissed off with me when I asked them to stop their dog before it got to us or when Justice reacted to their dog in his face, when we weren't the ones at fault. In the one instance where I was at fault for sitting near the wall I apologised profusely to the owner and took full blame for what had happened. On lead socialisation as part of obedience classes also carries an expectation that owners are attentive and in control of their dogs. I would be really interested to know the response of the other dog's owner if you asked about the dog's reactivity and whether it has a history of aggression because, like I said earlier, if Justice put on a reactive display toward your dog you would probably think he meant business too just because of how he looks and sounds (and he will lunge too), when he doesn't mean business at all. Snook, I think your attitude and actions with Justice are very responsible and reasonable :) And most importantly your approach has benefitted Justice and everyone around him because he's come so far. In the situations you've described, where people have specifically been told in advance to keep their distance, you've asked them to move away if they come close or their dog is being highly inappropriate by lunging and jumping I would say that the other party was at fault and you were not. You also clearly manage Justice differently as he improves, I expect in the earliest stages of his training you wouldn't have had him sitting in a room with a group of other dogs.

I absolutely agree that reactive dogs need training too, I think structured obedience style work is great for them and controlled exposure to other dogs is needed of you are going to reduce the reactivity. As I said though I wouldn't have my reactive dog somewhere where I couldn't move it further away or where it felt it couldn't move away and rely on others to avoid me. That makes it sound like I'm saying the other owner was more responsible for what happened, I don't think that at all and maybe it hadn't occurred to them that there could be an issue. Hopefully they too have taken something from it.

IMO both owners contributed to the situation, as you've already acknowledged Lilypily. As I've said before in close call situations like this, including when it's happened to me, it's an unfortunate thing that happened and all you can do is take it on board and work hard to avoid it happening again, as you've said you will. I really don't know legally who would be at fault, though I suspect if one dog was injured and the other wasn't the dog who caused injury would be in more trouble. The view that if another dog approaches mine inappropriately (but doesn't hurt them) it's appropriate for my dog to attack first, or for me to attempt to hurt (kick) the dog first just doesn't sit well with me. I expect my dogs (and have socialised and trained them) to tolerate some unexpected rudeness from other dogs. Having said that I try to always be hyper aware of what other dogs are doing and am more than willing to step in front/distract the other dog/catch it before it reaches them and/or yell to another owner to do something. I am also fortunate with the temps of my dogs and understand that it is not that easy with reactive dogs. However I would not take a dog aggressive dog somewhere where I knew there would be other dogs and unknown owners and have my dog in a position where it and I cannot avoid other dogs approaching ie. sitting down.

God, shit like this happens and you just think can people not just take half an ounce of responsibility to keep a dog THEY DECIDE TO GET contained? Maddie is tough, she can get through this :)

Omg I'm so sorry, I've just seen this! You, Stan and Maddie are definitely treasured DOLers. Super positive vibes from here too

No, she was born in the shelter I work at and has been on the same food since starting to eat soaked then hard kibble. I have introduced a couple of different things like treats for training and Dentastix but she didn't have anything new over the last few days.

Wow, that's scary. I knew it could get serious really fast which is why I was really quite worried last night. I was thinking this afternoon that it may have only been because I'm so aware of her long, slim build (she has a littler brother who is shorter and chunkier) and she's short coated that I noticed the difference in her so quickly last night. If one of mine had the same change I don't know if I'd notice it so quickly under their furry coats.

Sorry for not updating sooner! Foster puppy is ok, she didn't go downhill overnight although she had soft poo and someone had thrown up dinner overnight (not sure if it was her as it happened while I was asleep). When I first woke up this morning her tummy was softer and less bloated but then puffed up again (she hadn't eaten anything) so I took her to get vet checked, assuming it probably wasn't GDV but obviously something. Vet had a feel and a listen to her belly and said she sounds a bit gurgley as well as being bloated and it was most likely early signs of a gut infection, possibly coccidia, or just an irritation from something got her little mouth on. Her tummy's been going up and down (getting more/less bloated and firm all day) and she had lots of soft poo, I took a sample in for a float this arvo but didn't get the results before they finished up, I'll find out tomorrow if she needs Baycox or anything. She's stayed bright and happy the whole time and is still keen to eat, drink etc so I'm not overly worried. Thank you all for your concern and advice!

She seems fine, although still gassy.., I'm going to sleep and she's on the bed and loving it so hopefully ok :) Thanks again.

Actually SG, now you've raised it I'll mention it although I thought it was a bit OT... When applying for my current home (rental property) I included full details of my three dogs in writing, including breed, age, weight and photos - they are a 5.5kg poodle x, a 7kg Sheltie and a 21kg Aussie Shepherd. With no request from me the real estate agent listed 3 SMALL dogs on the lease... I don't think Quinn is small by any means but if the agent wants to accept them all as small that's fine by me :)

Ok, thanks guys :) just spoke to the emergency vet, seeing as she's still acting normally, doesn't seem to be in pain and hasn't had diarrhea, vomitting or lethargy they said she may have just swallowed too much air and i should keep an eye on her for the next hour then call back if I'm worried. As I write she's just done a normal poo... Hopefully all ok, I'll let you know how she goes! And read more about bloat in the meantime, thanks MUP. ETA - she had a cup of Hills dry from a bowl on the floor, as she normally does (I've had her from 8 wks). She is a bit greedy with her food so wouldn't surprise me that she swallows air. She's been drinking but I haven't noticed more than usual. She's still bright, lying on the couch but looking around

Sorry for not searching but hoping someone can give me some quick tips, I've read about bloat here but having only small to medium breeds haven't been overly concerned... Foster puppy is a large-ish bitsa with possibly (based on appearance only of mum and pups) some mastiff, Great Dane, Ridgeback in her. She's 15.5 wks old, pretty long and thin generally tho not underweight. I've literally just noticed that she looks rounder than normal around ribs/chest and belly, literally just for the last 5 mins. Dinner was about 2.5 hrs ago. Otherwise seems ok, has just settled on the couch next to me which she normally does. I suspect she's just gassy but just wanted to see if I should be concerned about bloat from this? If so, what else should I watch for? How urgently does she need treatment? Thanks all :)

Happy birthday gorgeous boy!! You certainly are a little super star :) Hopefully I'll get to meet you one day up at the Scar dog park