Simply Grand

Fantastic work casowner and all involved

Skip I think all responsible dog owners worry about loose dogs and the possiblity of a negative experience or an attack you are not alone. It's a bit like driving, you can be a fantastic driver, follow the road rules, speed limits and drive safely yet you still have to deal with other (idiot) drivers! From what you have described I would ditch your walks and focus upon training, socialisation in controlled environments for now and seek pro help. I dont think any great trainer or behaviourist would guarentee anything 100% They would need to meet you all, discuss the problems you all face and begin from there. I am not an expert at all, though know an important part of a trainers role is to support and empower owners just as much (if not more) than their dogs :) I would ask for help :) You will be amazed with the confidence you will develop which is awesome for both you and your dogs! Completely agree with what Nic says. I think it would be well worth a session with a good behaviourist just to see what's going on and whether they can suggest something new to help both you and the dogs :)

I appreciate what you're saying and I have done months and months and months of work with both dogs on their individual issues in much more controlled circumstances than this in order for them to get to the point where we could do what we did yesterday. It's great that you've been doing so much work with them. I know how challenging it can be to get some dogs' issues to a manageable place. Luckily their issues haven't been all that serious, plenty of people have much more to deal with than I do! With both dogs it was a matter of teaching them an alternative behaviour that is rewarding for them. It took me quite a long time of stuffing round before I found the right method for Riley (counter conditioning and what I now realise is a BAT type of approach - teaching him that he can remove the stress of the other dog by just moving away rather than staying there and reacting) but once I figured that out he progressed pretty quickly. Quinn is harder because her problem behaviour is sooooo rewarding for her so it's been a slow process of restricting her access, teaching a different behaviour (not jumping), really rewarding the alternative behaviour then showing her that the alternative behaviour is the only way she is going to get what she wants (access to kids) plus at this stage she still gets an additional reward for demonstrating the alternative behaviour. Sorry, dodgy explanations but it's something along those lines!

I appreciate what you're saying and I have done months and months and months of work with both dogs on their individual issues in much more controlled circumstances than this in order for them to get to the point where we could do what we did yesterday.

It was a real mental workout paying attention to so many things at once! The actual "handling" relied mainly on their good recall, and we've built a history of how things work at dog parks so they are used to keeping an eye on me and staying quite close which definitely helps. I don't normally take then when there are so many dogs, often we have space just to do our own thing at the local park we go to now. I really hope the owner of the dog being baby sat knew it was being taken to the park. And I hope it doesn't get into trouble any other time it's there. It made me think how risky it is to have someone else look after your dog, I have no idea what the dog's owner usually does but they may have said yes, take her to the park without even thinking that they needed to specify that the baby sitter needed to actually watch what she was doing.

Because I know everyone on DOL loves a good dog park discussion I thought I'd tell you about my afternoon at the park with the dogs :D it's part vent, part proud owner moment but mostly just sharing an experience for the sake of it (I know there are plenty of people who don't like dog parks and think they are too dangerous, I totally understand and respect that. They ARE risky and are not for every person or every dog. It's my carefully thought through choice to take my dogs to them as I feel the benefits for them outweigh the risks. I am not trying to convince anyone else one way or the other about it!) I took the four dogs, including foster puppy, to the nicer, bigger park we used to go to regularly when we lived in that area. They were due for a really good run around and seeing as today was a holiday I thought we'd make the trek. We had a great time and I have have some nicely tired out doggies this evening but as often happens, especially on a weekend/holiday there were some little moments. The first thing was that I mainly kept off to the sides/less busy areas with mine playing amongst themselves, occasionally another dog would wander over to say hi then move on again. There was one young largish girl that kept hanging around playing with foster puppy with no owner in sight. There were no problems, although I moved everyone on to settle things down several times when they started getting a bit too excited. She stayed with us for quite a while and eventually I figured out who the person with the dog was, she was standing near the fence chatting the whole time she was there except when she spoke on the phone, from what she said it sounded like she was exercising and feeding the dog each day while the owners were away. I thought how furious I would be if someone looking after my dog took it to a dog park, let it off and paid no attention whatsoever to what it was doing, let alone let it run with a pack of four dogs and a person they didn't know from a bar of soap! After that some people arrived with their young puppy, maybe 12 weeks max?. As we wandered past Quinn went over and said hello. The puppy was on a lead and I told Quinn to be gentle, which she was, they said to me "he's fine, he was just being a bit dominant before" (I don't know what they meant by that). Then Quinn moved off and they let him off the lead again. He and foster puppy then said hello and started to have a little play. She was probably twice his size and can play very roughly so I was watching closely but she was being really very gentle surprisingly! They started a gentle game of bitey face, foster puppy was half on top of the other pup but it was certainly appropriate puppy play (I don't think I'm being biased, I'm super careful with her). As soon as the mouthing became involved though the pup's owner came running over flapping her hands at foster puppy saying "no no no, get up, stop, stop" so called her away. (That's the vent, I know people are protective of their puppies and don't always understand dog language and things can turn fast so I do understand their reaction but my petty brain was thinking "don't bring your puppy here then get annoyed at other dogs for being dogs!!" ) The next was a bunch of dogs all ran over to near where we were (I think a chase was starting), I called my 4 away from the melee, which was all under control except there was one owner running after her dog calling a stern "leave it", which made me think "hmmm". The next moment a small staffy had pinned foster puppy to the ground in front of me and was growling. I was close enough to grab the other dog but the owner was almost there and foster puppy, bless her, was doing exactly the right thing and lying still looking over at me. Quinn was next to me wanting to go in but I decided we'd all just stay calm, told Quinn to stay there next to me and talked to foster puppy telling her good girl. The owner pulled her staffy off, foster puppy came over to me and we just moved off, no harm done. Now I know that sounds bad but without going through the last 10 weeks of foster puppy's life (she's 18 weeks old), I've been socialising her carefully to be able to deal with such things and she did beautifully :) it's by no means foolproof but that is why I think it's so important that puppies are carefully socialised with other dogs so they learn to communicate, even if their owners can't! The same staffy shortly afterwards made a beeline for the much younger pup mentioned above, who was by no means ready to be in that situation. No owners were close enough to grab either dog or puppy, puppy panicked and ran, staffy chased, other dogs joined in because of the noise. Thankfully the little puppy seemed unharmed physically and the owners then took him into the small dog/puppy area where he seemed to have fun. The staffy spent the rest of the time on lead being forced to interact with all the other dogs who ran up to him (although to be fair he seemed ok with adult dogs). Note - 2 dogs who IMO should not be at a dog park right now. Foster puppy also got a firm telling off from a huge male (Rotty looking but huge, Dane x maybe..?). She did some nice appeasing greeting behaviour and he was just going "yeah hi puppy" then she jumped up at his shoulder and he turned around and gave her a big "gruff". She looked very surprised but listened and backed off. She was still very interested in him but was most polite in her approaches after that, just sniffing around near him :laugh: The good stuff was my dogs :) (there were lots of other lovely dogs too, it was busy and there really were minimal problems). Foster puppy did some lovely polite interacting with various different dogs, which was lovely as she can be very full on with my dogs. I was so thrilled with my three when they were so responsive to what I asked them to do, including staying back when I told them to, when the staffy was on top of foster puppy. Riley has been reactive to dogs that are younger than him running up to him in the past but he didn't react once the whole time, even though there were plenty of dogs running around. And making me most proud was Quinn, who has been slowly progressing in learning not to jump on people in excitement. She has been going quite well with adults but she loves kids so much that she finds it really difficult to control herself around them. Today she ran up to not one, not two but THREE different children, including one maybe 4 year old (the younger they are the more she loves them, toddlers are great to her because she's perfect face height) and she didn't jump on them! The worst she did was a lick to the 4 year old's face, which made him laugh, but she was able to stand there wagging happily with her feet on the ground before running back to me for her reward :D So, that was my long winded story of my afternoon! Thanks for reading if you made it all the way through

Jeez, I must be getting old . I have little tearies reading about how the day worked out. I can just SEE the little girl so thrilled and puffed up about what a great dog trainer she is going to be :laugh: :laugh: I'd love to by a fly on the wall in that household over the next couple of days. Trinabean and Bruno: take a bow !! So glad you didn't listen to MY advice, but went with your instincts and recognised your own and Bruno's abilities. :laugh: :laugh: What a great outcome, sounds like a lovely day! Great work Bruno

Here's the article about it. I wonder if Noel Potter is still breeding GSDs and if any of her progeny are still alive. I remember she was imported from Germany, she must have been one of the first since the ban was lifted on them. Wow that's awesome! I love the technology of the time, a telegram was sent to one person, who took it to another person, who drove all the way to Melbourne to tell the owner :laugh:

Oh how scary, a big dog with your guys could go so wrong so fast! I've roared at a dog a couple of times, once was when I was walking Saxon and a young GSD came running up the street at us, he looked friendly but I wasn't risking it so I yelled at him to "stop", which made him slow right down, then told him to "sit" (as suggested earlier in the thread) which he also did, to my surprise. While this was happening I picked Saxon up and was trying to decide whether to try and use his lead to get hold of the GSD but he ran off I think back home before I got hold of him. The other time was at the dog park and one dog that I had been watching interact with the other dogs and had some concerns about chased down a young Golden Retriever in sort of play then stood over the top of it while it lay still on its back. The dog on top kept barking and sort of 'head punching' ( like going to nip/bite but not actually doing it) the GR and seemed to be becoming increasingly aroused and frustrated. I was the closest person, the GR's owners were on their way over looking very worried and the other dog's owner was off up the other end somewhere. I knew the name of the problem dog so when I decided it was getting too much and wasn't going to back off the GR I roared its named and approached stomping my feet and growling get off. I'm sure I seemed like a crazy person but It worked, he got off and the people got their GR out of there. Actually I just remembered, the male owner of the GR was close, he was hovering as though he was thinking of grabbing the dog on top and I warned him it was probably risky, we watched for another moment then I stepped in. I think I shocked the other dog's owner a bit he came running over looking very embarrassed and stayed close to his dog after that :D

A fear aggressive dog that is actually willing to attack is quite likely to warn, warn, warn while you're facing it then lunge when you turn your back. I wouldn't risk turning my back personally.

That's an awful story! So glad you were ok and thank god the two guys were there to help the other woman. What an a&$hole the owner was to just run off with his dog, I wonder if there had been previous incidents and he knew the dog could be in big trouble.

I gave up on toilet privacy long ago, sigh.

I just missed the best dogs/tv photo op! I noticed it was suspiciously quiet for a few moments and looked to see what the dogs were doing. Quinn and foster puppy were on the couch entranced by the beginning of The Sound of Music on tv, where Maria is dancing around on the hills singing :) Foster puppy was still watching in the pic but Quinn got distracted when I pulled the phone out

Hahaha, I can just picture Stan going "hmm, I'd quite like the yard re-landscaped, I think,I'll eat some rocks..." :laugh:

Mine all seem to like it and seek it out, with me at least, I don't know if they do it with other people actually. I do find if we just look at each other for a while without doing anything else they start to look around as though they're thinking "what is she waiting for me to do, am I missing something?" :)

Hero (the lab on Bondi Vet) wishes you'd told his owner and Dr Lisa that so he didn't have to go through the indignity of having it fished out of a certain personal area on tv

Just remembered I've seen a Bear Grylls (Man vs Wild) thing on what to do if charged by a pack of dogs, his advice was something like yell, run, throw your backpack at them, jump onto a conveniently placed car then scale a high fence to escape them. Very practical and helpful I thought.

I would do the same Jo, again only speaking for myself. Small fluffies, including my poodle x, apparently trigger prey drive by just standing there and I know Saxon's instinct if really scared is to run (sensible really as he has no chance of fighting) however that obviously escalates prey drive so now any chance of something happening and I'd pick him up and hold him behind me. I'd do it before the other dog got close if possible to try and diffuse rather than escalate prey drive. If it comes down to it I'll pit myself against another dog rather than him. I do like the idea of chucking him into a bin or something in a serious situation, I'll remember that. Interestingly the Sheltie, who is not much bigger and also fluffy but in a different way doesn't seem to trigger prey drive. I assume its because he looks more 'dog' like even though he's small. His instinct is also to stay still if unsure and to roll on his back in full submission if really worried, which doesn't escalate things like the running does. Usually I'd have all three of them with me though and Quinn the Aussie Shepherd would put herself in front of the other two, although I suspect the other two would charge in behind her. If it was just Quinn on her own I suspect she would try very hard to diffuse the situation if the other dog was serious - she's really very good at communicating with other dogs. She'd fight to defend herself if she had to though. I guess if it happened I hope I would be clear headed enough to let Quinn's lead go, scoop the two little ones into a bin or over a fence then find something (stick, pipe, hose SOMETHING!) to go and try and help Quinn. If I was on my own and a dog who was serious charged me I hope I'd do as suggested above and stand still, try to stay relaxed and calm, avoid eye contact but keep an eye on what the dog's doing and not turn my back on it, and either wait for it to go away or slowly back away until I could get somewhere safe.

Really? Wonder what the use of it is then .... save for revenue. When I microchip my puppies, they have to go into my name. I sign and complete the transfer form and all the new owner has to do is sign it, add their contact details and send it off and the owner details are changed. Simple right?? Must be too hard. I sold a pup 18 months ago. I got a letter from the microchip company the other day, saying the pups microchip registration is up for renewal? WTF? Firstly when the dog was sold interstate with this document, the new owners did not complete the transfer. Secondly, microchip registration renewal fees? When I was at the pound, you would get a dog, scan for the chip and log in and search the registries. If it was the companion animal registry, they would take your details, contact the owner and request the owner to contact you at the pound. Any other registry, they would give you the name and contact number for the chip. I could not be joe smith of the street ringing in and asking for details. We had our authorisation ID and password. There are many NSW dogs sold interstate. The companion animal registry there has to be the most un user friendly and had the worst customer service if you don't live in nsw. I think things may have changed as I believe if someone (vet, shelter, assume pound) is a person registered to access to the NSW registry you can log in online and access the microchipped owner's details yourself. And I just checked, it's actually the responsibility of the 'old' owner to send in the change of ownership details.

Welcome to a discussion forum

Very well said Terri :) I think it would be very helpful for suggestions if the OP could provide more details of their daily routine and their plans for exercise/mental stimulation and time spent with a dog, as well as what kind of things they really do not want to be living with.

Sorry Nekhbet but I feel you are being a little over sensitive and that possibly some other people are not making any attempt to consider everything being said. Up until Brightstar's post at 12:06 this morning there was nothing in the thread confirming that s/he had agreed for the dog to go to your friend. Of course I have no issue with him going to someone you vouch for, I doubt anyone does, and since Brightstar's additional post no one has posted anything unsupportive of this outcome. However there are plenty of situations which do not turn so out well, which is what I and others were concerned about. I'm sure many of us are aware of people not doing what they've said they will and it turning out badly. As I said before, i meant no offence to Brightstar personally but until more details were provided most of us knew very little about who got the dog from the pound or what they intended to do with him (unless everyone else knew something I didn't, in which case I apologise for not realising that). Many breeders on here have made it very clear that they would not be happy with one of their dogs going to a pound and being rehomed to an unknown party entire without their involvement and I fully understand that feeling so that's why it struck me as odd that people were unconcerned about this boy being in that situation. The other issue that was raised is the law, which is the law and applies to everyone whether we like it or not. Pointing that out is hardly implying that anyone who wants to keep a dog entire is an irresponsible, money grubbing lowlife. I'm sure I'm not the only person who mentioned that aspect who has an entire dog kept responsibly and not to be bred from unless down the track she proves worthy (or maybe I am, I don't actually know ) Let me reiterate, I am very happy that this dog has found a suitably specialised and loving home who will be responsible with him being entire, or desexed, whatever they want.

That's kinda rude. Everyone was assuming except for Brighstar and Nehk once she'd spoken to Brightstar. I don't see anything wrong with raising questions in a discussion, I think it's helpful in properly thinking through a situation.

Thank you for the additional information Brightstar, much appreciated in understanding this situation.

Is this what happened? Is Brightstar a reputable rescue with this unregistered breed's best interest at heart? Sorry Brightstar, not saying you are not, and maybe you have a long history with DOLers/rescuers, just asking the question and hoping that people will understand I am questioning, not accusing.