moosmum

Hi Diablo, Thanks for clearing that up. As far as I knew no one had set out to breed P.P dogs suited to a more general environment in australia. We did,after owning the dog mentioned in the earlier post.We tried breed clubs and were told we would not get what we were after. He was a generaly non con frontational dog,but demonstrated many times his willingness to take on what he judged a real and serious threat. As you can imagine,such dogs ARE rare and when found are usualy very much loved and not available. We were even more determined after a very nasty situation in which I was also let down badly.Luckily the police were already chasing the bloke involved so the dog was not needed.He failed miserably. After many years and set backs ie; suitable dog but wont breed, we finaly found a bitch who fits all our criteria and she HAS proven herself many times over.Since she was given to my son,she was bred to the most suitable male we had found to date for our own dogs since retaining these qualities is very important to us. We now have a strain that is showing great promise.(Read earlier posts from both myself and Jacqui) How far we will be able to go with this is doubtfull as finding suitable,responsible and reasonably experienced homes has been hard.Finding dogs to breed to this 2nd generation if that time comes will be harder but I know that while I have these dogs,we will NOT be is a similar situation in our own home again. I admitt these dogs have not been tested in a situation where they will have to take a beating etc,but their demeanor when in protective mode does not encourage anyone to try their luck,nor have the dogs gone too far when a snarl in the face will do and they have quickly settled when asked.

Furthermore to what Kristina has mentioned, people will tell us about their own dog or a dog they know/knew supposed to be a terrific protection dog that will step up to the plate in defence if a threat arises and in the mean time, possess all the magical traits of a therapy dog from a childrens hospital, loves everyone, welcomes strangers in and plays with all the neighbourhood kids. What a super dog that we would all love to own, but the truth is, these dogs rarely exist if at all. ************************************************************ ********************* ADDED: I resent your implication that I am either out right lying,or deluding myself as I am sure do many others who have owned such dogs.They are clearly increasingly rare in a society for which dogs are becoming irrelelevent.The true working breeds are increasingly being bred for only their specialised fields with different criteria used to assess their suitability rather than over-all intelligence as it relates to a broad adaptability in a human society. The fact that there are so many such stories,many well documented strongly indicates the exsistence of such dogs. In earlier years when dogs were much more a welcome part of our society and more truely companions these stories were very common.More so amoung working breeds where intelligence and independent judgment is valued.Most dogs today are given little chance to show any real adaptability and it remains undeveloped in most. No one is claiming their dogs are faultless or perfect.Just giving an indication of their versatility.I am happy to list my dogs faults too. ************************************************************ *********************** Dogs with the fighting courage that will defend and bite for real are not easy dogs to handle and takes experience to train and mould them to behave around strangers and in a public place. It takes time and consistant training to create a true protection dog which is not an easy process to attain. There are no untrained natural protectors that possess the qualities that some people lead us to believe. The love everyone friendly happy pet will run away in the crunch, and the natural protector untrained will be locked away not trusting what and when he may consider to be a threat and react unpredictably. ************************************************************ *********************** Added: While I do agree with the sentiments of the above statement in general,how can you say there are "NO untrained natural protectors that that possess the qualities some people would have us believe." That is a very broad statement. What qualities do you doubt they may have? What is your definition of a natural protector? I don't promote the idea of my dogs as happy love every one pets.They are companions expected to behave in a variety of situations.Their feature is that they love my company and our familys enough to behave in order to get it most often,but they also learn there are rules outsiders are expected to adhere to.The pack is their security,they know their place in it like to keep it that way. I totaly agree that an untrained dog (no matter what his "purpose") is not going to have the reliability to do his job any where near as effectivly as a dog with the needed instincts trained for his job.However a natural and clearly demonstrated instinct gives a good indication that a dog may try to the best of his abilities when called upon.How well he is able to do this is obviously going to depend on how well prepared he is in his understanding of what is required,and what is realy happening around him and his confidence in that situation. Apart from people working in security or related fields,most people don't seriously expect they will need the level of protection you are talking about.A dog that gets riled with torment or punishment is clearly undesirable in a family situation or in public.Nor should such a dog be there with out a well trained and concientious handler. A reasonably courageous and serious looking attempt should do the job in most situations. ************************************************************ ********************** There may be these magical super dogs that you hear of, but I am yet to ever see or find one in 27 years of owning and training GSD's. I am sorry that you believe you have never encountered such a dog.It is an experience to be cherished.I have encountered several in my 40 years working with dogs though only one could be classed as truely out standing.(untill recently).Magical super dog? Your words,not mine. I do think though that such dogs may not be easily detected or recognised in by the same criteria used to assess a dog purely for P.P work alone.His priorities and drives must be different,and they often will not work as well for a handler out side their pack,even resenting them.Adaptable,reasoning intelligence and loyalty to a specific person/group of people with an ability to "read" people seems a common thread. I had a Doberman who would run and hide at the sight of a snake. When out walking with 3 dogs,1 shied away and yelped on stumbling across a snake.The dobe ran and hid.Another grabbed it halfway along its body and the snake coiled round,biting him on the shoulder. The Dobe came back out from hiding,pulled the snake off,then ran and hid again.She overcame her fears enough to be do the job.Her loyalty over came other considerations. Presenting her with that threat but no real reason to take it on did not show what she was capable of.

Totaly agree. My first dog that got me into P.P dogs was a collie cross.He went every where with my family,adopted his own cat,went in parades for the local R.S.P.C.A and was known all over town (In those days things were more relaxed.He used to treat the Dog pound van as his taxi home.They would pick him up where there was a bitch in season,open the door as say "Time to go home Chimo" and he would hop in for a lift home. He tuned up at my old school when I had switched to a new one.my friends piled their bags at the back of the room and he "hid" behind them the whole day from class to class. A real life Lassie! We took him camping at our old farm house,a group of 7 between 7 and 17 yrs.and a little brother.Two of the girls lived just up the road and their mum and big sister thought it would be fun to scare us in the night. The older girl sneaked up to the house and climbed on the roof,running back and forth. the house was full of screeming kids.I tried to get out to see who it was,but even knowing it was likely a joker did not make me brave enough to go through the door with foot steps above my head. I looked for the dog,thinking "where is he when you need him." He was running around the house about 50 yards away where he could see the culprit. I went back in to see the girl enter the house from another door,laughing at how she had us all screaming and turned around just in time to see Chimo fly in the 2nd door and literaly caught him by the collar in mid air as he flew for her throat. Luckily he calmed imediatly when he realised we were all now laughing but if I had not been vigilant it could have been very nasty. I had this dog from age 11 till 27 and he taught me a lot. I still cry over his loss and I bet there are a lot of people in the that town who still remember him.You could write a book on him.I used to tell people I could get him to do anything they asked within 10 minutes. But you need to know your dog and protect him from mistakes,so it goes both ways.

Thanks Kavik, That counts me out then but I can still have fun training on my own.Would have been nice to have that expert help though. More questions if anyone can help: My son is doing security training with the goal of k9 later and possibly training our own dogs eventualy. How does he go about finding suitably qualified training for that? Is it going to be terribly expensive to get that training?

Does a dog have to be a particular breed or even pure bred to do schutzhund? And where can you do it here?

Hi Jacqui! Yes, we intended on keeping all the pups the full 8 weeks,but by 6 weeks they were so clearly needing more stimulus and activley trying to bond with anyone( 10 kids yelling"Pick me! Pick Me!). They NEEDED to be starting their training while they were so receptive.They had a huge play area but could not run free to chase the chickens or get trampled by horses and mum no longer feeding them.Even lots of handling couldn't keep up with their development.(edited to clarify:pups did not go at 6 weeks,they needed it tho' and those still here at 10 weeks were desperately trying to bond with anyone new.Sad to see and I think idealy,in the right placement with the right people,they should start training earlier for a P.P home) It seems to me the combination that makes a good P.P dog is very high intelligence,"loyalty" and confidence. The hard part is finding people with the same qualities towards their dog because I get upset when I hear of one thats been re-homed.Have been lucky there though,with better luck 2nd time for those few. His whole worlds been turned upside down. Once you have had that raport with a dog and appreciated it nothing else will do,but its like you have taken responsiblity for an alien intelligence. I guess you have at that. It up to you to see it has the skills to share your life and feels secure 'cos its the only life it will know. In return,he knows no one else understands him like his owners and thats worth protecting. And if I am anthropmorph-thingy it works for me.

Wow your dog (or I should say dogs) seem so great!! May I ask what breed they are? (GSD?) LOL The proven girl is 1/4 rotty,3/4 Dobe.She is not very big as far as security dogs go.A VERY affectionate dog .Loves to sit on your lap. She was bred to my daughters big pure dobe male. Some of the pups were bigger than both and some very beautiful!The biggest was at least 32 inches at the shoulder and was raised in a daycare centre...also loves kids and cats. I kept a bitch and she is the 2nd dog I think worth testing.Just as affectionate as her mum and likes laps.thats how I chose her. All pups we have kept in contact with have shown her great instincts to protect and extra affectionate too. So they are dobe. basicaly,with 1/8th rotty and I love them. They are generaly much bigger and less extreme looking than the pure dobes ie: not the big chests out front and more substance.Not reliable as to looks or size though. We still have 1 pure dobe girl.She was the one who was supposed to breed with the male as we had such a hard time finding her and did not want to loose the qualities she had.Never would breed.Thinks shes a human and we joke thats why she would not accept "A DOG!?! " She is also very protective and a terrific family dog. We chased down a male from her lines finaly.Her old breeder who was now out of breeding due to health put us on to a mate who had a litter.He said "you might not want this lot though,the fellows used a 1/4 Rotty over his bitch" So now we have dobes that aren't quite dobes but we are VERY happy with them.

Wish I had found this topic earlier! I have 4 dogs chosen for protective instincts,all have been farm raised and good with cats and other animals and are terrific family pets.two I would love to have tested. One has been in situations where she has been needed and stepped up beautifully to definitly protect (yes protect,not just react) and is NOT high drive.She has relaxed again imediately when called and generaly acts the perfect family pet and adores kids and cats.She is a strong willed dominant dog and it would be interesting to see just how far she would go as she has only ever needed to show she was more than willing to take on a threat,not carry it through. The only time she has shown she can be more in a normal family situation was when we had a visitor she was wary of for his height and green dreadlocks visiting the home.She took our word that he was welcome untill he started yelling at his kids.She just gave a soft growl and the visitor stopped yelling and just said "I've been told". Am I right in thinking its very hard for those training in P.P to find suitable dogs out side of a very few proven lines here in australia? The other has not been in a situation where she has "proven' herself,but is looking like she would enjoy the chance and is very quick to leap up barking and growling if anyone suprises her/us. We often have to say to her"Its just me"as she is very quick and alert .All will welcome visitors in a very friendly manner when we let them in the gate. My daughters male will also stop and stare,refusing to move on when my daughter walks him if anyone starts calling out obscenities or lurking,following her etc.(she is a very beautiful girl and does get that!) Great topic since I love the relationship working with these dogs entails and plan to do more with them. I will be eagerly waiting the results. the other 2 are also quite protective,but for different reasons would not pass the tests devised. ie:1 scared of gun shots. The other 2 I believe would aquit themselves very well even if they did not pass the full test. Incidentaly,we have raised 3 kids,many other animals and had lots of visitors,parties etc over the years without incident.Our dogs are well trained and only confined at night or when we are away. Though my son did bite the dog once.