moosmum

I hope I can say this as well as i'd like with out doing a book here. I see pet shops s a symptom,not the cause. Yes,I have a LOT of problems with most establishments selling live animals.Not all. I don't see the solution to be banning the sale of live animals out right.There are much worse conditions puppies and kittens can be sold from.Pet shops are at least very open to public scrutiny on a daily basis.They have controlls,regulations etc. As to the source of their pups,yep,some come from puppy farms,but I know of many people out here in the sticks who breed once a year and sell directly to pet shops. Pet shops are catering to highly lucrative market,in a very public way. If you ban sale of live pets,where are their customers going to turn,bearing in mind they want a pup and they want it now? They will turn directly tro the puppy mills,backyard breeders and free internet sites,etc.All very hard to police and regulate,all easier to hide . These places will be much harder ti influence in any way, less easy to get to accept responsible change. Attention will turn even more to regulating these places and the result will be that in the end,the only ones able to breed dogs will be those willing to accept thatany dog breeding operation at all be run according to such strict standards and regulations that only mass breeders,or farm style operations,can afford to breed at all. We will end up with dogs bred purely on a comercial basis,sold to those requiring a revokable at any time licence to own dogs. Fewer dogs kept at all,fewer people exposed to dogs or with any real meaningful knowledge,and a continuing cycle of decline. There will not be universaly accepted solutions through legislation,there will always be those seeking to enforce more to bring about the change they see as essential. I firmly believe changing perceptions on pet ownership is the only way to go.Maybe slower,but far more effective and less damaging in the long run. We must 1st stop the divisions we see all the time and allow and encourage people to take pride in their pets and WANT to learn more,no matter the origins or breeding. It would take an essay to say what I'd like more effectively,but I'd be happy to write one.

I agree. Besides,divide and conquer is working too well for those who want to impose ever more legislation.

I realy like this idea,but think it should be clearly stated through out that legislation is not an option,as its just driving dog ownership and experience further under gound. I also think cheaper desexing would make a huge difference. Theres been a lot of great ideas in this thread in particular. I don't think you can ever get through to every one.Some people are just morons,but not many actualy choose to be. Peer pressure would also see more being reported (or helped) once the message starts to get out.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages. My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders. As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target. I hope you have a lovely night Sorry Conztruct, that you took my reply so personaly.Yes,it is a frustrating situation,and we all tend to be blunt to get our message accross with out confusing the readers. However,I did find your solution an offensive one,and set out to explain why. I did not label you,but the attitudes that I do see as dangerous. My assuptions about what you seemed to be insinuating seemed to me fair given the way you set it out in black and white. We all have to be so careful that what we say,me included. Its not my intention to belittle you,but point out a too common problem here that drives away the very people we hope to educate and brings division so that the dog world is fractured with every one working against every one else. No need to apologise - no offence taken. The only reason I said anything was due to the elitist, arrogant tag which I didn't necessarily find offensive but wanted to quickly correct. I always make it my policy to check my assumptions (whether I perceive them to be fair or not) are indeed correct but everyone works differently - the assumptions you made were not correct and do not reflect my opinion and I did not want to be "guilty" by association in relation to your general comments in the response. I apologise to all the other posters for the completely OT post. I think the decline in the purebred dog world (which is a hobby basically for most except a few of the larger scale more professional breeders) is largely a sign of the times and something that is being experienced in a whole range of areas. A lot of people are very impulsive now and aren't prepared to research, don't want to wait and let's face it are looking for the best price too. I don't think it's so much anything people who supply dogs of any kind are doing right or wrong, but just the way people are now - educating them to behave differently is extremely difficult because you are looking at changing a culture that is facilitated in just about every aspect of society now. I agree,and think most of the issues being discussed come back to changing peoples attitudes and how they see pets as more acessories than living beings with their own personalities, needs and and at the risk of sounding anthropmorphic,feelings.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages. My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders. As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target. I hope you have a lovely night Sorry Conztruct, that you took my reply so personaly.Yes,it is a frustrating situation,and we all tend to be blunt to get our message accross with out confusing the readers. However,I did find your solution an offensive one,and set out to explain why. I did not label you,but the attitudes that I do see as dangerous. My assuptions about what you seemed to be insinuating seemed to me fair given the way you set it out in black and white. We all have to be so careful that what we say,me included. Its not my intention to belittle you,but point out a too common problem here that drives away the very people we hope to educate and brings division so that the dog world is fractured with every one working against every one else.

In response to your comments - of course, yes, they were generalisations and I'm very well aware that all registered breeders are not necessarily ethical, or that all pet shops are not necessarily unethical dodgy used-car type sales outlets. I did not cater for all the ifs, buts and maybes scenarios for the purpose of not having a post that went for pages upon pages. My comments were based on my own experiences in looking for a dog as I spoke to many suppliers including pet shops, BYBs (even though I didn't know they were this at the time) and registered breeders. As a relative newbie myself, I'm happy to be educated and am very open to constructive feedback. However, making assumptions about what I seem to be insinuating (especially when they are not correct) and then labelling me as elitist and arrogant is over-stepping the mark fairly significantly and getting very personal. Thank you very much for berating me and I'm sincerely glad that you've taken your frustration out on me which means that hopefully someone else will miss out on being a target. I hope you have a lovely night

This" Us Vs THEM" IMO is where we all get ourselves in strife.Every one trying to not just see things done ethicaly,but to "bring tha bastards down" I believe pet shops CAN be run ethicaly,and no doubt some are.So why persecute all pet shops? I do think its quite posible to work with pet shops,and them to work with ethical breeders,if creative thought is is used. conztruct, I agree with your 1st sentence,but the generalizations in your examples are hardly fair in the way this is worded. You lump Registered ,ethical breeders into one very positive basket,that seems to insinuate all registerd breeders fit in there too.They don't automaticaly and there are many pure breeders telling their " consumers" anything about health,size and fitness to make a sale.Many of whom are motivated by profit. These are the people who have repeatedly given ammo' to those persecuting pure breeders. Them you lump all BYBs in the same category as puppy farmers or pet shops as being purely profit motivated and with no ethics or on going care.Sorry,but just because you will not hear about them on dole,does not mean they are non exsistent.Maybe harder to find,but these divisive attitudes are helping no one.So often you see newbies to DOL being crucified before they have a chance to learn better,.Wouldn't it be better if we can assume if they are interested enough to come here,its because of a genuine desire to learn? In your pragraph where you ask,What is the solution? I find your solution very offensive. Who cares? Every one except the registered,ethical breeders who you insinuate includes ALL of the registerd breeders! When registerd breeders can claim no one in their ranks is profit motivated,that all stock is clear of genetic health problems,that all puppy buyers are provided with on going care and life time guarantees etc,and includes no puppy farmers then people might listen to these arguments. Attitudes like this are what is turning people away in droves from pure breed dogs,and great informative sites like DOL.It is elitist, arrogant and damaging. The puppy industry should be very different re:protectionism.Otherwise it becomes nothing more than that..An industry.

Good luck, I hope he he finds his way home. The same happened to some friends/neighbours of ours when they moved 5 ks away.We went to visit them one evening and on our way home drove past the old house 3/4 days later) and and saw him hiding in the scrub on the side of the road in the dark. We opened the car door and called him,he was soo happy to see familiar faces! Took him back next morning. So yeah,check the old place too! Perhaps ride that way with the horses?

While I agree with this to some extent,its not enough on its own. We have many pure breeds in pet shops too,and if thats where the demand turns to,then i'm sure the puppy farmers etc will just provide more pure breeds for the market. I think you would rather need to promte the idea that buying directly from the producer is the safest option for both the buyer and the pups/dogs. It gives the chance to see both parents and assess their health, temperaments and conditions in their surroundings. Allows youto obseve behaviour in more natural conditions. Gives you the chance to discuss breed traits,care,health and suitability with the person who should know best what they are striving to acheive in their breeding programs. IMO promoting pure bred dogs is realy up to the organisations representing them, and their members. There will always be those who for whatever reasons,are not interested in buying a pure breed. I do think though that there is little info. regarding pure breeds or where to find them for the general public.But more important is the knowledge that breed breed traits and history,the origins or original purpose, affects breed traits and behaviour. Buyers need to be more aware of that fact and it should be a consideration in any dog brought into your life if its to fit in. If that idea can be got through,more would research pure breeds anyway. The sum of a dog is more than size and coat.

Sorry off topic....Hate to get technical but you can actually milk a billy goat....I will get the ladies name and stud if you like. ;) :D I will pass on that one thanks.I hope the goats are de- scented! Pungent milk.

Sorry folks, but I'm going to say education yet again. I firmly believe that animal studies,with a focus on responsible domestic animal ownership is long over due as part of the school cirriculum(sp?) Plants are studied as part of basic science,from propagation to to photosynthesis and more. Animals have never been included in this,possibly because at one time every one had some experience with animals in their own homes or close by.Thats no longer the case and it shows. The 1st thread in this series mentioned examples already,but to give another,I was once asked when milking my goats if the billy goat could be milked too! :D And this from a country raised woman with 2 children.And yes,she was serious. The benefits of knowing what you want or are trying to acheive with a pet is naturaly going to promote a knowledge of an animals purpose/back ground as best practice. Edited to add: I understand you are after more immediate sugestions Steve,so I will drop it (for these threads.

A GOOD breeder who knows their dogs and has spent the time observing and interacting with the pups is the best judge of the puppy to suit you. The most dominant is not always the most confident.You can have a very confident pup who is not easily intimidated,but not interested in asserting himself all the time over a much more dominant pup who the breeder should recognise as needing a particularly strong handler.(in the case of dominant strains for example) Its all going to be relative according to the litters and their backgrounds.You might have a particularly dominant strain to start with. The pup who appears the most confident at a visit might in reality just be the most active/reactive and energetic. Size can change several times in the puppies early growth periods. IMO nothing can replace good observation skills and experience on the part of a good breeder,combined with your honesty about the home and situation the pup will be living in,and what you expect of your dog. Pups innate personalities can be pretty complex.

Thanks Jed,and Scruffy :D It all helps. I'm hopefull I might find it in the archives,just depends on if our "card' will work to subscribe and I can figure it all out in a day I typed in my search with out subscribing and it did bring up a result (used the 1st line of the quote) that I wasn't able to view.If it was the whole of the area blanked it could well be what I'm looking for. Buster Lloyd Jones would be a good one to check out too.I know the letter was attributed to some one well known at the time,just suprised if it is the same letter being quoted from,that the author is forgotten.

Thanks Jaxx, I guess I should have asked here for help in finding my post 1st.

Thanks Jaxx, Again,sorry for doubling.I need practice for searches or something. Jazawayaya, Don't ask me,but thats the excuse used . I think it may have been since people were struggling so much to meet their own basic needs at the time,and felt guilty "wasting "resources oon their dogs when so many people were going without. The author of the letter supposedly went past the gas works every day and was heart broken to see people lined up to surrender their dogs. I have heard from several sources that this happened,with an astronomical number of dogs gassed. The bits I can vaguely recall point out the many ways dogs show their devotion,watching you leave for work and greeting you at the door on your retun,living for the kind word and gentle touch,the head on your lap and soulful eyes.The gentlness with children. I think at one point saying "He would give his life for you". A very beautiful work that I would love to see revived,and badly needed in these times when we are in danger of allowing dogs to be legislated out of exsistence. Maybe the extra detail in your link to my original post will jog some ones memory,but I think the book authors name ended with man or mann.(been trying self hypnosis almost to recover any detail :D )

Yes,it was me.I couldnt find the old post though.I'm not the best on a P.C with limmited use on gennerator power and newish thing for me.So sorry about the repeat. I'm hoping at least for contacts for the Major Brittish papers,so that maybe I can enlist their help,or from their archivists. Apparently you can access the archives on line,for a fee Sounds like people pay for on going use. But I don't use a credit card and with my lack of p.c knowledge,no idea how long it would take me to figure out how to find the thing! Thanks for your previous help tho'. Can any one supply emails for those major London papers that were operating in the war years?!

I have come up against a brick wall trying to trace a letter written to a major Brittish news paper in the times of the 1st/2nd world wars. It could well have been the "Times Of London." It was written in response to the huge numbers of dogs being taken to the gas works for euthanasia at that time to "assist with the war effort" and was credited with bringing the practice almost to halt over night. I have very little to go on,the full letter was published in a memoir type book written by a little known author I found in the "naturalist' section of the public Library 30 years ago.I can't remember his name or the Books tittle,only that it sounded like a book on English Country Gardens at a glance. The author was a great fan of dogs and told many of his own stories and mentioned many more famous stories such a Greyfriars Bobby. May have been published in the 60's. I think,but I'm not sure,that the quote below is a small part of this letter. "He is your friend,your partner,your defender,your dog. You are his life,his love,his leader. He will be your,faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. you owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Any one who either has access to the on line archives for the major Brittish papers,or even can supply me with email address's for the editors or Archivists for those papers? Or Know of this book? It may clear up the mystery of the author and give us back the whole of it.Just as relevent for our times now.

Educating the public does not entail 'creating a student and teacher' situation usually. Public education and awareness programs are, for example, like the ads we are currently hearing about 'looking up' for powerlines or the 'Dial before you Dig' campaign. Awareness campaigns also include topics such as gambling, water control and weed control. A variety of methods are used in changing and altering behaviour and educating. Some are through more community awareness campagins and others through social marketing campaigns. Examples might include a campaign through media with advertorials, editorials, interest stories and advertising, identifying areas or groups of concern and working with these specific areas or groups, and more educational areas such as information seminars and examples of best practice. Social behaviour, awareness and social marketing campaigns can be highly successful. Yes,your right Anne, I guess I 'd just love to get it ALL through to people at once! :D Chasing up my letter I have come accross some beautiful quotes made thru the ages by politcians,writers and ancient greek philosophers. Just goes to show how sadly attitudes have changed.

O.K, Back for a short time. Re education, I think targeting adult who are in a position to buy now ,unfortunately will have limmited effect. Most are "too busy" or disinterested to attend education days and we would be largely preaching to the converted. A well made documentary style program could start the ball rolling though? ie; A breif history of the role of domesticated animals in society, where we stood at the beginning of this century and a forward to whats happening today regarding the views and attitudes,and conditions of animal ownership.How greater knolwledge and understanding would benefit society as a whole. Maybe also some article written to papers along the same lines,urging people to consider their choices and responsibilities before legistaltion takes their choices away completely. I badly want to trace this letter written so long ago,it was brilliantly done and responsible for almost ending the euthanasia of dogs happening at that time to "assist the war effort". I belive kids enjoy being able to spout facts to their parents and are much more amenable to seeing animals as "beings" rather than aquisitions. I could picture kids saying "I want a dog" Mum says",O.K well' go to the pet shop" and kids saying,'NO mum,we learned in school that you have to make sure the dog we choose is right for our family or it might end up in the pound.And we have to fence the yard better" If kids at school could go to a shelter and see badly neglected dogs,learn their likely fate and their stories,I think they may come away with a much greater empathy for domestic animals.Especialy if they could see,as a contrast,well loved,very well trained dogs strutting their stuff and showing the potential when its done right. They would learn that a Lassie or Inspector Rex doesn't just happen,but is with in reach. Those breeding in sub standard conditions would hopefully start being shunned out of 'Popular "opinion. I agree breeders details should remain on microchips,so that should a dog end up impounded the breeder will be informed at the least.

Laws are targeting EVERYONE who keeps dogs. Lets avoid any groupings here.We all have a stake in seeing this done right,we can all benefit,and no one needs to be disadvantaged while education is a 1st priority. This is about keeping dogs as a valued part of society,that we can all enjoy, while doing all we can to reduce negative impact on others and improving the welfare of dogs. Sorry,had lots more to add,but on generator power here and time to shut down. There is a letter I havve been trying to track down written at the time of the 2nd world war in London that would be invaluable!

While I agree that many breeders should take more responsibility for dogs they breed,I think its its a mistake to demand life time responsibility for each and every dog. This idea only encourages buyers to disregard their own responsibilities. You would have the blame for any problems being increasingly laid on the breeders,leading eventualy to more law suits and general flack aimed at breeders. Thats not to say breeders should not have to think about pups once they walk out the door... Here,all pups are microchipped before leaving. It is a condition of sale that I have the right to contact the new owners at any time,and I do so several times in the 1st year for each and every pup,and often later if it seems warranted or welcomed. I ask about any behaviour or health issues. There are very few I have lost complete contact with.Many I see here on Dol and can pretty much relax about them. This is not just for the pups,but for me too. I have a much better idea of how pups are likely to develope both pysicaly and mentaly,and how to match them with owners.If health issues were to pop up,I could address that. Where I choose to advertise should not come into any question of my ethics. Steve, You are likey right that people never did have much idea of dog ownership,but overall I think dogs and people were more balanced a generation ago as a result of the day to day interaction that was taken for granted. Kids (and most adults) did have a basic understanding of how to behave around dogs,and dogs being allowed to roam with the kids all day were pretty well socialised as rule. There was not the same fear of dogs or their impact on society thats becoming so common,or the need to slowly legislate them out of exsistence. But yeah,there was a lot of ignorance then too. There was also peer pressure( or disapearing dogs) on the worst of owners and a lot of help for those who sought it,even if it might not have been the best of advise.

Mandatory microchipping,used as a life time trace for dogs could be a very valuable tool. I believe the current laws,if properly policed,are sufficient.(provided that mandatory 'chipping as a trace is utilised) I believe the main problems come down to a lack of knowledge by Joe average. Dogs are no longer a normal part of life for the majority of people,and most of the Joe averages who do have dogs no longer have the wealth of information available from friends and neighbours when there are problems. People no longer know any better. They have no idea where to get a dog and turn to the pet shops,papers and on-line. They have no idea the sort of help thats available from behaviourists or training clubs and groups. No idea of diet unless its on the supermarket shelf in front of them. No idea how many dogs are pt each day. No idea whats involved in raising and training a puppy. Or caring for an older dog. No idea that some breeds are known for certain traits that may mean its an unsuitable choice for them. No idea of their responsibilities or the laws. No idea that socialisation is required or why. You want a dog,you just go get one.Easy. I realy believe the only way around this education as part of schooling ,startying in primary school right up to high school.Even if only 2 days a year. Going to animal shelters to see what happens to unwanted dogs/pets. Learn about the laws and responsibilities of keeping animals. See and handle dogs while learning about safe behaviour around animals.Learn about service dogs.Behaviourists,vets,trainers,kennels etc. Show children that animals DO have a place in society,but that comes with responsibilities for us all. Peer pressure,once a greater understanding is known,will eventualy see a lot of these problems enormously reduced. Ignorance is the biggest problem IMO. What people don't understand,they fear or abuse.

Oh my Dog, another child attack! That boy should be declared dangerous and should have been on a lead. :D

Could we here draft a letter explaining why we feel ; More legislation is wrong. The detrimental effects it will have. why it will not solve any problems. and a Better alternative. Post it on Dol and any other other web site related to companion animals,send it to registries and governing bodies asking for support and signatures as a petition? We could all help with some one good at that sort of thing responsible for tying together various submissions into a cohessive and comprehensive whole,informative document. ie;Some one could write explaining how breed specific bans are failing. another on effects for registered breeders etc. effects on rescue,How such action as that proposed will drive the pet industry into the hands of comercial pet farmers/puppy mills,The problems with giving too much power to a single body such as the R.S.P.C.A with no one to answer to etc.

Agree with all the above. Most people seem incapable of looking at the bigger picture for themselves. Hear of the problems and can't see the root causes. We seem to have a "Make the buggers pay for it" attitude with out being able to see that we will all pay for it and still not solve the real problem. I dread the future we leave our kids. It would be lovely if people could unite for education before legislation.So many representative bodies are failing us. Legislation will only isolate us all from the non-domestic animal community further and lead to yet more ignorance.