moosmum

Thanks Jed,and Scruffy :D It all helps. I'm hopefull I might find it in the archives,just depends on if our "card' will work to subscribe and I can figure it all out in a day I typed in my search with out subscribing and it did bring up a result (used the 1st line of the quote) that I wasn't able to view.If it was the whole of the area blanked it could well be what I'm looking for. Buster Lloyd Jones would be a good one to check out too.I know the letter was attributed to some one well known at the time,just suprised if it is the same letter being quoted from,that the author is forgotten.

Thanks Jaxx, I guess I should have asked here for help in finding my post 1st.

Thanks Jaxx, Again,sorry for doubling.I need practice for searches or something. Jazawayaya, Don't ask me,but thats the excuse used . I think it may have been since people were struggling so much to meet their own basic needs at the time,and felt guilty "wasting "resources oon their dogs when so many people were going without. The author of the letter supposedly went past the gas works every day and was heart broken to see people lined up to surrender their dogs. I have heard from several sources that this happened,with an astronomical number of dogs gassed. The bits I can vaguely recall point out the many ways dogs show their devotion,watching you leave for work and greeting you at the door on your retun,living for the kind word and gentle touch,the head on your lap and soulful eyes.The gentlness with children. I think at one point saying "He would give his life for you". A very beautiful work that I would love to see revived,and badly needed in these times when we are in danger of allowing dogs to be legislated out of exsistence. Maybe the extra detail in your link to my original post will jog some ones memory,but I think the book authors name ended with man or mann.(been trying self hypnosis almost to recover any detail :D )

Yes,it was me.I couldnt find the old post though.I'm not the best on a P.C with limmited use on gennerator power and newish thing for me.So sorry about the repeat. I'm hoping at least for contacts for the Major Brittish papers,so that maybe I can enlist their help,or from their archivists. Apparently you can access the archives on line,for a fee Sounds like people pay for on going use. But I don't use a credit card and with my lack of p.c knowledge,no idea how long it would take me to figure out how to find the thing! Thanks for your previous help tho'. Can any one supply emails for those major London papers that were operating in the war years?!

I have come up against a brick wall trying to trace a letter written to a major Brittish news paper in the times of the 1st/2nd world wars. It could well have been the "Times Of London." It was written in response to the huge numbers of dogs being taken to the gas works for euthanasia at that time to "assist with the war effort" and was credited with bringing the practice almost to halt over night. I have very little to go on,the full letter was published in a memoir type book written by a little known author I found in the "naturalist' section of the public Library 30 years ago.I can't remember his name or the Books tittle,only that it sounded like a book on English Country Gardens at a glance. The author was a great fan of dogs and told many of his own stories and mentioned many more famous stories such a Greyfriars Bobby. May have been published in the 60's. I think,but I'm not sure,that the quote below is a small part of this letter. "He is your friend,your partner,your defender,your dog. You are his life,his love,his leader. He will be your,faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. you owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." Any one who either has access to the on line archives for the major Brittish papers,or even can supply me with email address's for the editors or Archivists for those papers? Or Know of this book? It may clear up the mystery of the author and give us back the whole of it.Just as relevent for our times now.

Educating the public does not entail 'creating a student and teacher' situation usually. Public education and awareness programs are, for example, like the ads we are currently hearing about 'looking up' for powerlines or the 'Dial before you Dig' campaign. Awareness campaigns also include topics such as gambling, water control and weed control. A variety of methods are used in changing and altering behaviour and educating. Some are through more community awareness campagins and others through social marketing campaigns. Examples might include a campaign through media with advertorials, editorials, interest stories and advertising, identifying areas or groups of concern and working with these specific areas or groups, and more educational areas such as information seminars and examples of best practice. Social behaviour, awareness and social marketing campaigns can be highly successful. Yes,your right Anne, I guess I 'd just love to get it ALL through to people at once! :D Chasing up my letter I have come accross some beautiful quotes made thru the ages by politcians,writers and ancient greek philosophers. Just goes to show how sadly attitudes have changed.

O.K, Back for a short time. Re education, I think targeting adult who are in a position to buy now ,unfortunately will have limmited effect. Most are "too busy" or disinterested to attend education days and we would be largely preaching to the converted. A well made documentary style program could start the ball rolling though? ie; A breif history of the role of domesticated animals in society, where we stood at the beginning of this century and a forward to whats happening today regarding the views and attitudes,and conditions of animal ownership.How greater knolwledge and understanding would benefit society as a whole. Maybe also some article written to papers along the same lines,urging people to consider their choices and responsibilities before legistaltion takes their choices away completely. I badly want to trace this letter written so long ago,it was brilliantly done and responsible for almost ending the euthanasia of dogs happening at that time to "assist the war effort". I belive kids enjoy being able to spout facts to their parents and are much more amenable to seeing animals as "beings" rather than aquisitions. I could picture kids saying "I want a dog" Mum says",O.K well' go to the pet shop" and kids saying,'NO mum,we learned in school that you have to make sure the dog we choose is right for our family or it might end up in the pound.And we have to fence the yard better" If kids at school could go to a shelter and see badly neglected dogs,learn their likely fate and their stories,I think they may come away with a much greater empathy for domestic animals.Especialy if they could see,as a contrast,well loved,very well trained dogs strutting their stuff and showing the potential when its done right. They would learn that a Lassie or Inspector Rex doesn't just happen,but is with in reach. Those breeding in sub standard conditions would hopefully start being shunned out of 'Popular "opinion. I agree breeders details should remain on microchips,so that should a dog end up impounded the breeder will be informed at the least.

Laws are targeting EVERYONE who keeps dogs. Lets avoid any groupings here.We all have a stake in seeing this done right,we can all benefit,and no one needs to be disadvantaged while education is a 1st priority. This is about keeping dogs as a valued part of society,that we can all enjoy, while doing all we can to reduce negative impact on others and improving the welfare of dogs. Sorry,had lots more to add,but on generator power here and time to shut down. There is a letter I havve been trying to track down written at the time of the 2nd world war in London that would be invaluable!

While I agree that many breeders should take more responsibility for dogs they breed,I think its its a mistake to demand life time responsibility for each and every dog. This idea only encourages buyers to disregard their own responsibilities. You would have the blame for any problems being increasingly laid on the breeders,leading eventualy to more law suits and general flack aimed at breeders. Thats not to say breeders should not have to think about pups once they walk out the door... Here,all pups are microchipped before leaving. It is a condition of sale that I have the right to contact the new owners at any time,and I do so several times in the 1st year for each and every pup,and often later if it seems warranted or welcomed. I ask about any behaviour or health issues. There are very few I have lost complete contact with.Many I see here on Dol and can pretty much relax about them. This is not just for the pups,but for me too. I have a much better idea of how pups are likely to develope both pysicaly and mentaly,and how to match them with owners.If health issues were to pop up,I could address that. Where I choose to advertise should not come into any question of my ethics. Steve, You are likey right that people never did have much idea of dog ownership,but overall I think dogs and people were more balanced a generation ago as a result of the day to day interaction that was taken for granted. Kids (and most adults) did have a basic understanding of how to behave around dogs,and dogs being allowed to roam with the kids all day were pretty well socialised as rule. There was not the same fear of dogs or their impact on society thats becoming so common,or the need to slowly legislate them out of exsistence. But yeah,there was a lot of ignorance then too. There was also peer pressure( or disapearing dogs) on the worst of owners and a lot of help for those who sought it,even if it might not have been the best of advise.

Mandatory microchipping,used as a life time trace for dogs could be a very valuable tool. I believe the current laws,if properly policed,are sufficient.(provided that mandatory 'chipping as a trace is utilised) I believe the main problems come down to a lack of knowledge by Joe average. Dogs are no longer a normal part of life for the majority of people,and most of the Joe averages who do have dogs no longer have the wealth of information available from friends and neighbours when there are problems. People no longer know any better. They have no idea where to get a dog and turn to the pet shops,papers and on-line. They have no idea the sort of help thats available from behaviourists or training clubs and groups. No idea of diet unless its on the supermarket shelf in front of them. No idea how many dogs are pt each day. No idea whats involved in raising and training a puppy. Or caring for an older dog. No idea that some breeds are known for certain traits that may mean its an unsuitable choice for them. No idea of their responsibilities or the laws. No idea that socialisation is required or why. You want a dog,you just go get one.Easy. I realy believe the only way around this education as part of schooling ,startying in primary school right up to high school.Even if only 2 days a year. Going to animal shelters to see what happens to unwanted dogs/pets. Learn about the laws and responsibilities of keeping animals. See and handle dogs while learning about safe behaviour around animals.Learn about service dogs.Behaviourists,vets,trainers,kennels etc. Show children that animals DO have a place in society,but that comes with responsibilities for us all. Peer pressure,once a greater understanding is known,will eventualy see a lot of these problems enormously reduced. Ignorance is the biggest problem IMO. What people don't understand,they fear or abuse.

Oh my Dog, another child attack! That boy should be declared dangerous and should have been on a lead. :D

Could we here draft a letter explaining why we feel ; More legislation is wrong. The detrimental effects it will have. why it will not solve any problems. and a Better alternative. Post it on Dol and any other other web site related to companion animals,send it to registries and governing bodies asking for support and signatures as a petition? We could all help with some one good at that sort of thing responsible for tying together various submissions into a cohessive and comprehensive whole,informative document. ie;Some one could write explaining how breed specific bans are failing. another on effects for registered breeders etc. effects on rescue,How such action as that proposed will drive the pet industry into the hands of comercial pet farmers/puppy mills,The problems with giving too much power to a single body such as the R.S.P.C.A with no one to answer to etc.

Agree with all the above. Most people seem incapable of looking at the bigger picture for themselves. Hear of the problems and can't see the root causes. We seem to have a "Make the buggers pay for it" attitude with out being able to see that we will all pay for it and still not solve the real problem. I dread the future we leave our kids. It would be lovely if people could unite for education before legislation.So many representative bodies are failing us. Legislation will only isolate us all from the non-domestic animal community further and lead to yet more ignorance.

SAY NO TO MORE LAWS!! Do we acknowledge a partership with with animals in our future,or don't we? Do we have such a a god complex we think we can reject our history of interdependence? Is this going to help us to understand and live in the natural world? To manage it better than we have been doing? Do we reject the contribution made to our own advancement and development by other species?? can humanity afford to "Go it alone"? Is this a desirable out come for a species that hopes to one day comunicate with alien species? Sh*t,we are fast losing any ability to communicate with the ones we live amoung now!! If domestic animals are to have any part in the future of humanity,It should be recognised that laws targeting the ingorant will lead to greater isolation from domestic animals....Creating more ignorance. SAY NO TO MORE LAWS!! In the interests of a future that allows for a human/animal interdependence, education for all starting in our schools is essential. No more legislation.How 'bout some education? There are programs starting in our our schools,give this a chance before we drive animal ownership/partership underground. We have laws to ensure animal welfare and responsible ownership.Education will aid in their enforcement.

I think its a fluid thing too,and knowing your dogs well is the best way to avoid or sort problems before they escalate.Some times the only option is to re-home 1 or even pt if it were just a totaly D.A dog. We run 4 bitches,2 desexed now. 1 tiny girl amoung 3 big girls.(and 1 boy) There are 2 bitches who are separated at all times,to the point where I will even tie 1 in the shed ,then close the gate as welll before the other goes into the run for her turn of 12 hours each. These 2 are both very dominant,mother and daughter who were living apart from the time the daughter was 8 weeks till they were re introduced at 3 and 7 years.It was no go from the start.Neither is a problem with other females. I have broken up 2 fights with these 2 before we took the extreme precautions we now take.Once on my own in a confined space with other dogs milling around. Pleased to say even tho' I had to pull them apart with my hands I have not even come close to being bitten either time,even when I had a near strangle hold on one while the other was pushed away with my leg and commanded "BACK". Still a horrible freaky situation tho' that left me shaking! Normaly we woudln't put up with this,but its sort of "long term temporary" till the older can go back to her owner. Both these dogs have accepted my oldest girl as "boss" after the 1st challenge when they were 9 months old. In both cases I broke it up and favoured the old girl.It was realy over before I stepped in tho' and the old girl has never been a domineering type,just very confident in her place and asks only that no others try pushing her around.ie she won't take any ones bone,but shes not going to give hers up either.Shes more a peace maker. The little terrier can be a pain,but the big girls will ingnore her more obnoxious behaviour as if its beneath their effort. We have no hesitation at all leaving any of the dogs alone in the house together when we are out,as long as the trouble some 2 are separated. BUT... as my old girl ages and gets grumpy,I'm aware that she may snap at one of the more domineering types with out good reason.1 I think will handle it and move on,the other may try for dominance again.We are always aware of the dogs interactions and any changes. Never had serious issues with dogs raised and kept here from the start,and won't allow the dogs to "sort it themselves" unless its minor and over in seconds.Any thing else is considered more serious and delt with. IMHO Each case is different and you have to handle it accordingly.

Moans.groans.rumbles and mumbles. We have 1 who whistles and had 1 who would open his mouth to bark but it went on and on with out a break,more like a "Bay?" And of course the rare one who learns to realy say things. Pretty big range here when you think about it!

You can see the dog mouth the handlers arm in the first 4 seconds of the video. It is something that can be fixed quite easily and by using a lot less effort than what the handler is using / being told to use. Saying perhaps that dog is prone to turning back on the handler and biting him when the dog gets ramped up, the other guy in the video instructing says "hold him down, don't let him win", so it looks like an alpha roll type thing to teach the dog that attacking the handler will result in the dog being overpowered and will loose the battle. So in those circumstances as everyone is saying what's happening in the video is wrong, then how do you fix it "easily" Jeff, can you give us some insight how the situation should be handled correctly??? IMO the dog the is not listening,that should be being addressed 1st in this situation. Time out and no action till he settles and focuses on his handler. I would treat the mouthing as a separate issue that should have been addressed before putting the dog in that situation. I don't know how the security types would go about it to keep the bite,yet reserve it for work,but with our pups if they mouth I will give them a lot more than they want and don't let them get away from it too easily.If that doesn't work quickly I will pull them back off my hand by the scruff (not roughly) and growl in their face. Easily understood. Edited to appologise for this also,not addressed to me but I wanted to see some alternative even if its not the best. Would be interested to hear you Jeff.

I didn't watch it through either,too much for me but IMO no excuses.Hope it was a very old vid. I do think some times the drives being bred for the work are too extreme,and don't see the benefit if they have to be curbed in such a way.

There is a National data base,cost for chip here was an extra $10. but well worth it. As long as your contact details can be made reliable,it seems the best bet.

Depends on the dogs too,we have ringlock/dog wire with about 1 acre fenced around the yard.The dogs are trained they aren't to go out side the fence unless either they are on a lead,or with us and only when called.

I would be very cautious about giving activated charcoal in this situation.It works by absorbing gases,chemicals etc in the gut.It can also absorb many nutients and medication so may absorb all the vitamin k being given.It can be a very usefull treatment for poisoning and other conditions,but as the poison would have been consumed many days ago I think its far too late for that and may do more harm than good. Sorry to throw a damper on advise when you are so desperatly searching for an thing to help. The time for charcoal would have been while the poison was still in the gut,not the blood stream. My thoughts are with you and I also hope for the best out come. ;)

Stacks On!! We went camping with the dogs once and I was woken by a weight slamming into me.A Rottie had wandered into the camp and when my 6 month pup saw it she leaped on top of me to bark at it. Scared the cr*p outof us both I think.

My oldest girl does that,she also rouses on anyone who doesn't listen when I rouse. If the big dogs are playing rough round the smaller ones she will herd the littlies under the car and make them stay there,tells me if the horses have got where they don't belong and alerts me to anything she thinks needs my attention by poking me with her nose and growling. She is Aunty scarey Lou to every one.

That would not fit the behaviour in this case,the pup had been badly injured by adult dogs previously and was very nervous around other dogs,here to gain confidence with my bitch.I missed seeing it happen but rushed out when I heard the pup scream.Was told the reason by those present at the time(visitors who owned the staffy. ) In both cases the "victim' would have been acting more like prey.I just don't see why sit on it?

Just remembered a few incidents where a dog who appeared to be "after" another animal or dog,instead of biting or attacking just sits on it? I've seen this a few times,once with a dog who had my cat cornered and last time a 1yo. staffy who sat on a dobe pup. Anyone know the significance of this behaviour?