moosmum

I agree some accreditation would go a long way to protecting every one involved in the industry. It would hopfully help to educate people better in what to look for in the 1st place, and most definitely be good for those working hard to produce genuine working dogs. I hope this changes I'm happy to say after reading your post that my sons dog would not ever be found peering from behind his legs! She is a very confident and relaxed,placid type generaly,but will react instantly to any sudden movement towards any of us.She will also react if we get angry or anoyed at some one,or they get angry or anoyed at us, and has never reacted towards the wrong person or children. she has never been known to show agression away from us unless its an intruder to our property. We have a lot of confidence in her,but still want an expert opinion and believe that more job specific training should be needed. Its sad to know that young man and his dog are realy very vulnerable and likely LESS safe working as security than just going for their walks for fun. My sons ambition is to have his own security company and this area seems to be one where he could improve on the accepted levels. I took it for granted there would be a lot more to it!

Longcoat,you would hope so wouldn't you? Sounds like a lot of room for improvement right there. we will be making sure they are both well equipt for the job but i reckon there must be a lot of young people starting out with little support who feel they are trained and ready as can be after the basic courses and who knows what sort of dogs they may be using.

Was going to post our method for training even a high prey driven dog to stay in the yard when surrounded by things like 'roos and rabbits,but deleated it since it could be open to abuse if its not done with proper supervision.

Yes,If my son takes himself and his dog off to K9 force for a good assessment and any advise re; training for both of them we will feel much more confident.If its felt either of them need more work we can figure out where they go from there according to advise. The training provided seems pretty inadequet to me,but sounds pretty standard.

We are in the central west atm,but will be relocating,possibly just north of Newcastle.Hopefully with in a year. The dog he hopes to use is terrific,but has only been a family dog and we would want her well prepared and assessed for such a role before she ever goes out into that situation.If she will have problems there is another he can raise and train specificaly for the job.

A lot of great sugestions here for my son too.I have recomended he look around here on dol and read this thread and other training threads himself. It seems finding a reputable trainer and assessor for his dog may be a problem? Can any one recommend a good one in N.S.W working specificaly in this field? I certainly don't want him going into this with a badly trained dog and he was told his dog itself needs no sort of accreditation?! He is doing his training in Q.L.D atm.but will be back. Tho' his employer would likely check out the dog.

My son has just done his security course and soon to start his K9 unit. He will be using our own dogs as he has been raised with them,knows and has great faith in them. Unfortunatly they have not yet proven themselves proffesionaly. We believe they will.

Yes, I think for a family thats the best option. We chose dogs for a strong protective instinct but have not trained any to bite or attack.They are strong nerved dogs,very affectionate,dominant types but with a strong pack drive and eager to please their owners.None are trained for protection work,though my son is just getting his K9 security licence and we will train one up for him when his current dog is ready to retire. The strong likely hood that they will protect is all we ask in a home environment or near children. They have learned through play (Get the kids,find the kids) and never a child bitten. We have had a child bite the dog,and the dog protect a visiting child from his angry father.We have not been let down yet and there have been several incidents where the dogs have stepped up beautifuly,tho' they have not yet bitten nor been asked to.I believe a word of encouragement at those times would see the dogs very willing to go that step further.,but it has not been tested.Being knocked over and a dog standing over you snarling in your face makes most people pull their heads in quick! Looking after an extra bitch lately (,my sons dog while he trains) we need to keep her and her daughter separated at all times as they are both willing to accept other bitches only if THEY are the boss! Two times now we have had accidents where there were fights and both times we have been able to wade in to grab collars with no fear of being bitten ourselves. The dogs are raised with cats,free range chooks and even tiny Yorkies. I loved watching my kids grow up with the dogs,seeing the dog sit patiently through puppet shows for her benefit and play chasings.My old girl knows she is not to be on the furniture.She has broken that rule only twice.Both times when chasing one of the kids who ran into a corner,pulling the lounge chair in front of them.The dog has stopped untill the child taunted them"nyah nyah,you cant get me!" She did!

This is perhaps a valid point, though I ask you, how relevant? How likely are you to be robbed by a 'dog savvy person'? In like 99% of cases, dog barks, person shows fear, dog escalates and chases person off the property. I have had people tell my dog to be quiet, we even had one guy calmly try confront him, they took a step forward, and the dog did too. My dog has always stood between me and anyone suss, and I actually believe you would have to kill him to get him to move. He is completely fearless in those situations. He barks when he first hears a noise on our property, but if he finds someone there, that changes to a low growl and they can go backwards (off the property) but they can't come any closer. No-one has ever tested it. People have thrown him food though, which he completely ignores. In the same way that a dog can be bred to herd, hunt etc I believe they can be bred to protect, because that's certainly what I've seen in my case. I've had other dogs, terriers and what not, that were kind of protective in that they barked and put on a good show, but when someone moved towards them they always moved back and eventually would sort of hide behind us. This dog however has been remaining between me and whatever I don't like since he was about 4-5 months old, but he came from a breeder specifically working to achieve that. I also dissagree that a dog you can rely on to protect is going to be a serious handful for an experienced security handler only. Very strong nerves are quite possible in a family pet,along with great determination. O.K,So we can't count on them carrying through if an attacker is willing to keep coming,without P.P training.Maybe not,(maybe yes too) but We don't have to worry they will bite just because they have been trained to be aggressive either.They have the most important quality.The willingness to defend. The dogs mentioned here are doing their jobs beautifully,not many are uncontrollable menaces. If they don't go as far as a profesional trainer would like,at least they have been able able to be there when needed.These dogs all did what was required. That to me is a lot more useful than a trained P.P dog who has to be locked away for the safety of every one.Thats not the type of companion most responsible dog owners want. Reliability for any task is going to be stonger if that is specificaly what the line is bred for.Very few pure breeds are bred specificaly and solely for family suitable protection in Australia at least.If those that are are going to be such a handful,they are no good to me or the average family. If the dogs professional P.P trainers are working with are generaly unsafe in companion situations,and its claimed repeatedly they are the only ones you can rely on,what does the ordinary person do if thats important to them? We are proud of what our dogs have done.What is unlikely to be tested doesn't matter.If I ever expect to need more than that,its time for a gun! Keep the stories coming folks,they are great!

I don't see a problem with it if it is done ethicaly,with compatible strains,for a specific purpose,and with the welfare of resulting pups of prime concern. If done intentionaly,it should be with thoughful consideration. Most breeds were originaly developed for their own specific purposes from cross breeds,some quite recently,and this should be remembered. Many pure breeds have been bred away from their original purposes enough that "Working traits" can not be relied on. As an example the Inuit people likely have little faith in say,a sledding breed bred in Australia over their unregistered native stock,bred back to wolves every few generations.They may well find a cross between a Siberian husky and a Malamute useful,and who are we to try to deny that right because their dogs are not registered? Its a closed and narrow mind who thinks the pure,registered breeds in exsistence today can be all we are ever going to need for the gene pool potential of dogs in general,but I agree this is not the place to debate this. Anyone responding in favour,no matter how sound their arguments,is setting themselves up for a hard time here. I admire and respect the registered breeders here who work hard and knowledably to improve their breeds,yet other view points are not wecome and sadly,are often seen as attacks.

Thats wonderful to hear and does deserve some visible thanks! How about a BIG bunch of flowers for the reception (can be from a garden,just so long as they are lovely and showy) with a BIG visible card saying some thing like: "THANKYOU! To the worlds greatest vet,(or his name)in appreciation from..." We also have a couple of terrific vets,it great that there are such caring people still.

Yes please,Contact the breeder 1st if thats possible. Most breeders will be concerned with the welfare of any pups they have bred and will be very willing to help out.They may have people on a list for older dogs already approved should one become available.

I will be sure to keep a close eye on my dogs too,so far no signs of them touching them thankfuly! Luckily our tree is only small and easily harvested.Now I'm aware of it I can avoid the problems too with the netting later down the track. Thanks for the answers. Has any one heard of anything similar with walnuts?

Theres some weird and scarey people out there! Glad you are all ok. Fran,you must still be shaken. You did well to keep your wits about you too! At least you can feel you are well looked out for.Good boy Atlas!

I have a personal protection breed,both pure and X breeds. I would have loved to stick with the pure breed,but was told 15 years ago by my breed club that what I wanted in a dog could not no longer be had here in Australia. :D Very upsetting as these qualities had been very much a part of the breed description.My crosses used a breed introduced in earlier lines of the original breed,and seem to work very well. There are some wonderful breeders here working hard to bring back these qualities and I am behind them 100%. (And a HUGE thankyou to them! ) but wish all breeders could join these efforts or I'm afraid this breed will be lost to us here. I am speaking only of my chosen breed here,different circumstances affect different breeds. There was talk earlier in this thread comparing dogs to certain makes of cars...All very well,but if I want a Lotus,a Datsun with a Lotus body kit is NOT the same! Any working abilities will only remain reliably strong in a breed while their worth is valued by breeders and sought out in breeding stock before suitability for the show ring comes into it. If a breeds description includes certain abilities and personality traits,to me these should be a 1st focus if the breed is not to become irrelevant. Any responsible dog owner should be doing their research for suitability before they get a dog any way,so how is changing the breed to suit todays market doing anyone favours? As people said earlier,if the temperament and requirements for a certain breed don't suit,there are plenty of other breeds that may suit better. In my case anyway,a cross has worked well in an area out side of hunting or working live stock.Its just a shame it was needed to get what I wanted.

Sorry guys, not trying to hijack this thread but i hadn't heard that macadamia nuts were toxic to dogs. Is this true of the whole nut or just shell/pulp? We also have a macadamia tree and tho' I've not seen the dogs eat the nuts,one of our dogs loves the walnuts and is always finding them,cracking them and eating the flesh.She has taught the others to do this too,tho' she is the only one so keen on them. Are walnuts safe? We have not had any bad effects so far and she eats a lot when they fall.

Congratatulations Sexy Rexy! He IS a beautiful boy even at 10. So lucky that you found each other too,that terrific bond is beyond life and one of the best experiences you can ask for in your own isn't it? Hes gorgeous.

Ellz, you seem to have got quite upset that my comments reflected your own,tho' not worded as well perhaps. And thats why I did NOT say they must,only that they MAY,if they choose, make that offer, if it can be assumed etc. etc. I made it quite clear I was no expert and willing to stand corrected,but if you just want to jump on me I can handle that.

I don't know much about the law, but from a laymans view point only,this is how I see it. A lot will depend on how much you paid for the pup. If you are expecting a lot of guarantees expect your pup to cost a lot more.Those costs incurred by the breeder will be passed on. With even the best of dogs health wise,no one can guarantee every pup will be free of any health or other issues. Such a breeder MAY offer to replace the pup,for one that better suits your needs if it can be assumed the damage did not occur while in your care. But also : Did you explain to the breeder you were after a pup for show? Did you take their advise on what pup to would best suit your goals? Did you ask about any health or soundness issues? Did you ask what ,if any guarantees were given? Its your dealings with the breeder and any verbal or written contract that should be questioned before liability can be shown. but thats just how I see it.

Hi Shoemonster and thankyou very much for that! I certainly have a lot of choice now after checking the sites you gave. Between that and viewing clips from you folks posted here I can make a great start. So much to learn but watching the clips is inspiring and helps to see whats meant to happen.So yeah,the D.V.Ds will be the go.

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be. My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then. Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time. I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?) Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile. She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did. So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it. Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.

Hi Guys, I've been following this thread with a lot of interest.I have never trained in drive before and my 3yo dobe 1/8th rottiy girl sounds like a perfect candidate fort this type of training.She has a very extreme prey drive and this causes her to become very easily distracted with my old training methods.She has got much better as she has grown up,but no where near what I believe her potential could be. My problem is we are fairly isolated and I can't get to "classes"of any sort nor afford the correspondence classes at this time.We will be re-locating hopefully next year and badly want to do some professional training then. Links to other sites can be awkward too,as we are on solar power and satelite broadband,both very unreliable for long times spent on the p.c.and just too much time. I am not confident I have the ideas right. ie:I assume you build the drive with the toys,then take it away and return it only when the dog has focused her attention on you and your 1st simple so as not to fail command,then build up to slowly to what you want?) Anyway,without an experienced person to make corrections as needed,I am worried I may make some bad mistakes that may create serious problems.She is very FAST and agile. She is great with our animals,kids etc. Very protective,but so prey driven its a pain.She found a rat trapped in the wall 4 days ago and was desperate to get it,chewing and clawing at the wood.We ended up taking a piece off the door frame and I managed to loop the tail of the rat to where she could grab it.The space was to small for the rat to get out,but she got it out anyway and we had no peace till she did. So,if anyone can recommend a good D.V.D or books to get me started I would realy appreciate it. Thanks for starting this thread and to all who have posted here,I don't mean to hijack.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with that last statement. The R.S.P.C.A is the only organisation with enough clout seen to be working to improve things and actively working for animal welfare on a government level.The govt. is only too happy to listen to them first and last as it saves them having to do too much work in an area most have little understanding of. I still believe education should come before any further legislation is considered. This won't happen unless people get off their butts and lobby for it,preferably with R.S.P.C.As co-operation. I think R.S.P.C.A may well join in such action if people can offer constructive input and feed back on why legislation should be a last resort and how education could best be acheived (through schools) Any alternative views to the R.S.P.C.As will need to be very well organised and vocal to be heard at all,but such an alternative could well work for every one. So DON"T leave it up to the R.S.P.C.A

If your shed is very well sealed with doors shut and has a concrete floor a flea bomb in there should do. When we moved here the fleas were so bad stepping into the shed would COVER your legs with fleas in seconds.It was a dirt floor and we tried lots of things including spraying it with Malawash. The only product that worked was one called Pestine (not sure of the spelling,so long ago) from the stock and station agents. Its a powder that we spread all over the dirt floor. It took a while as it does not seem to work on all stages of a fleas life cycle,but it did clear them in the end.

Moosmum, curious as to how you've tested the dogs to demonstrate that they will 'prove' themselves? what situations would you class the dog as proving themselves? As I mentioned earlier in the thread,the dogs have not been tested in any proffesional sense and I would love the chance to see how far they would go.(in a controlled situation of course) The bitch we used to get our strain has only shown mild aggression at the farm on one occasion with a visitor yelling at his children.He stayed with us 3 days altogether with no further incidents,and all she did was to growl softly as she approached him.Stopped as soon as he stopped yelling. She was given to my son as a 17 yo. and he takes her every where with him.He is now 22.She is generaly very placid and easy going,but boys that age will muck around,he has been with her late at night as pubs are emptying and at parties etc.always on a lead.Any one who has lunged at my son,she lunges right back,growling.Put herself between you and any possible aggressor. Another time when visiting a friend after a late night the boys sat in the lounge to wait for the friend to get up,not realising there was a another boy asleep in a pile of clothes.He sat up suddenly,with the same result.She managed to leap on him since she had no lead indoors,but just snarled and calmed as soon as my son called her. She has done her warning snarl again when my kids were in an argument with a flat mate who would not stop whatever it was he was doing.After several times being told to "stop it!" my daughter repeated it in an angry voice and the dog again aproached him and snarled. One of the pups left with the flat mate also defended my son on a visit back.He noticed the dogs has spilled their water and went to re-fill,pushing a Pit bull aside which promptly latched on to his hand.The young dog went the P.B imediately,after the flat mates had compained it would not defend itself from the P.B before that.It will now. You would have to read back through this thread,(see Jacquis posts.Her dog is not yet a year old)but there are other examples and not all from myself. Basicaly,they are very gentle good natured dogs in most situations,very loyal and affectionate.they seem learn what the rules are for their families and expect every one to follow them,treating their "pack" as a co-operative unit with us the leaders. Anything unusual and they let us know. Vistors are welcome,providing they are escorted into the front gate by a family member. Another dog; We had an engagement party for another son in town.Lots of visitors staying with us.One the dog was very familiar with wanted to come home early with his kids to put them to bed.I said we may have to come too as I was not sure he would be let in.He said he was sure it would be o.k. As soon as the dog heard the kids she would settle. That exactly what happened,but a second wave of visitors the dog did not know had more trouble.She let them in,after being told it was O.K and to go to bed,but we heard she growled and grumbled the whole time till we got home as if she was not sure he should be letting anyone else in with out us there. They may not be what a proffesional would class a P.P dog,but they are all we ask and rarely need to be confined,so available should they be needed. We have never encouraged agression in them,but nor have we disciplined them since we can understand each time why they have reacted as they have. 2nd generation have shown their mothers traits of being very affectionate and trainable with their owners,to different degrees.Will often place themselves between any perceived /possible threat and their owners. My own girl is very much like her mother,but much sharper.Very quick and very high prey drive.On the farm she has had little chance to show what she might do.I did encourage her once only to show more aggression.Only time I've ever done that.A fellow who rang about pups sounded very sus.He wanted to take a pup home on spec.When I said not on,he asked to look anyway. I just wanted my girl to show he would not be able to get into the yard or at the pups when we were away.For the 1st time ever she did not settle when I let the bloke into the yard.She allowed it when I told her to, but I had to tie her up because every time the guy moved she would start up again.Turns out the guy wanted a vicious dog any way.We won't let pups go to anyone wanting that,only lifetime partners.I hated the way he handled the pup he held. She did similar once when my O.H was involved in a argument just out side our yard.I had to put her on a tyre to be sure she did not go through the fence as the raised voices set her off.She stayed nearby though and did not relax her guard till the others left an hour later. The one time she was exposed to small children for a weekend I thought she may need to be restrained just for her high energy in case she knocked the kids over.She controlled herself very well and did not do her usual 100 ks an hour the whole time the kids were here . They are least a very least a strong visual and vocal deterant.They are very affectionate,and try to sit on your lap and will press their heads into you for cuddles.Giant mink stoles draped around your shoulders. PERCYK: My collie would protect,but not sure what sort of collie/X he was.Tri coloured,bigger than a border but more solid than a rough.