moosmum

Such examples may not be found readily with in the K.Cs,but is happening with out.The results often very well recieved. I know of one cross breed competing with Dogs N.S.W who has been held up by them as a wonderful example of his "breed".I'm not sure if his pedigree status is known so won't elaborate. Unfortunatly there are disgruntled breeders leaving the K.Cs to do their own thing, and being well recieved for their results.

I have seen people here using horses as examples of inbreeding.Race horses tracing back to 4 known sires. You forget that tho' 4 sires may be in all pedigrees,mares have come from else where and there is an enormous gene pool where horses not up to scratch in testing performance conditions are discarded. Likewise,arabian horses are said according to ledgend to have decended from 5 blue mares.Grey is pretty dominant colour in horses yet all arabs are not grey, outside horses have been used (unless these 5 mares were cloned)and purity can't be guaranteed any further than pedigrees can be traced.

I hope this works!I just got it myself and haven't even had the sound.Love it. My link

I tried that with Lou when she was younger.She treated it like a big joke and ran for her blanket and tried to spread it out on me. She and the kids would repeat that game often.

The idea shouldn't be dismissed either. I believe North American wolves are less human aversive than the european wolves.Interesting that North americans had a more acepting attitude to their wolves untill white sttlement. 40 years ago in Canada,living in a small rural village our G.S.D had a litter of 1st cross puppies.I had seen the wolf 200 yards from our back door. 2 years later the last of the pack was shot in our neighbours back yard(he was the local sheriff) A shame,because as far as I know they were never threatening or actualy causing any damage.

Had to laugh when "Replying to this might annoy people" came up. I love the mix of dogs and kids we have always had with out incident,up to 3 dogs and 3 kids.The dogs have mostly been Dobermanns with a terrier X thrown in. They have always been best of mates and looked out for each other. We taught the kids how to behave with the dogs,the dogs how to behave with kids with mutual repect. There are many baby pics taken with a dog there keeping an eye on things,or toddler pulling the dobermann after them by the collar with kittens nearby. When the kids left home they took their dogs. Some visiting kids would need a very close eye on them.(Shudders at the memories)

I never said you called all big dog owners idiots, just that all sizes and breeds of dogs can have idiot owners. We need to concentrate on the problem and instead of banning breeds which just makes them more attractive to the people who want tough, illegal dogs deal with the owners. Make it compulsory to do obedience courses, make it so instead of registration, dog owners have to go through a course and get a license. Regulate owners not dogs. And then if your dog attacks a human or another animal unprovoked you get charged and your license suspended until further notice. We need to be hard with the people who allow their dogs to do these things. Sorry,but I disagree. You are asking ALL dog owners to pay the price for those who are irresponsible and instead of BSL,we end up with all dogs ownership being restricted. and the "black market" extending to all dogs. Education in dog ownership and responsibilities is badly needed now.This is partly because dog and their care are already marginalised here in Aus. Peoples experiences with dogs is limited.Further restrictions on ownership would only be a self perpetuating cycle. The current laws should be enough if they were enforced properly.If thats not working,why would more legislation work. So can you tell me why RB owners are the only ones who have to pay the price for Irresponsible owners? bare In mind Irresponsible owners come attached with many 'other' dog breeds not affected by BSL Another case of I really don't care about RB owners as I don't own one and It doesn't concern me! Exactly. I am sick and tired of owners of other breeds brushing the issue off or coming up with answers like "why should I have to....." (mind you I know there are many people here who have nothing to do with RB breeds who are very against BSL, so please don't take offence if you are one of them ) It is all well and dandy when it isn't affecting you or your dogs right. I don't see where you get that I am a BSL supporter,but if every one who wanted a dog had learned something of their origins and breed development as a a co-dependent of man,studied basic breeding concepts,needs,specific breed characteristics and our responsibilities and the law just maybe BSL would not be needed and future breeds won't need to suffer the same fate. If dogs are to continue to have a place in society,society in turn needs to recognise their place and make room for dogs to keep evolving along side us.Education and peer pressure is the only way that will happen. Legislation will continue to marginalise and reduce contact preventing oportunities for people to learn.A manual is not going to make every one who has one an instant expert,but that will be the claim while even more knowledge is lost. The changes I see in dogs and dog ownership in the last 40 years is pretty disturbing.

I never said you called all big dog owners idiots, just that all sizes and breeds of dogs can have idiot owners. We need to concentrate on the problem and instead of banning breeds which just makes them more attractive to the people who want tough, illegal dogs deal with the owners. Make it compulsory to do obedience courses, make it so instead of registration, dog owners have to go through a course and get a license. Regulate owners not dogs. And then if your dog attacks a human or another animal unprovoked you get charged and your license suspended until further notice. We need to be hard with the people who allow their dogs to do these things. Sorry,but I disagree. You are asking ALL dog owners to pay the price for those who are irresponsible and instead of BSL,we end up with all dogs ownership being restricted. and the "black market" extending to all dogs. Education in dog ownership and responsibilities is badly needed now.This is partly because dog and their care are already marginalised here in Aus. Peoples experiences with dogs is limited.Further restrictions on ownership would only be a self perpetuating cycle. The current laws should be enough if they were enforced properly.If thats not working,why would more legislation work.

This. This is how I see neutralisation too.The dog is most definitely socialised,but with the handler always ready to step in and enforce rules that guide any interaction so it goes as smoothly as possible for all concerned.If controll is lost,so is the interaction.You walk away. The dog learns interaction is on your terms. I have seen it as you are not actively trying to "neutralise" the dog,but thats the desired end result of correct and responsible socialization. And I agree with Joe.In a dog park situation theres little controll.An "in your face" dog is not my responsibility.Controll of my dog and myself is.Though I would not let my dog attack,I would certainly allow her to defend herself.

Wuffles,I read it that Neutralization and socialisation aren't mutualy excluse.More a different approach to a well adjusted dog. A dogs not discouraged so much it doesn't want to interact when free to do so.He can still be a dog,but learns interaction (and the positive mental stimulation it provides) depends on restraint,manners and attention to his handler. More inanimate experience earlier,then progress to more controlled introduction to animate subjects,with more freedom to interact as restraint and controll are demonstrated in each new situation. Someone correct me if thats wrong..Seems to well work for me. eited for sp.

There are quite a few Dobes in our area now,but 10 years ago that wasn't the case. We had a large male that was obviously a very poor example of the breed and was retarded to boot.(realy) We had many people asking to use him for service and it realy got to us that even when we said no,he was not going to sire any pups,ever,peeps still tried to say it didn't bother them that he was reatrded,the pups would sell. Unbelievable!

So sorry to hear you going through this and hope you have family/friends support. Agree re the autism society to get immediate guidance and supprt as a 1st call.Even if it turns out not to be autism. In the mean time to keep your son distracted some noisy,moving parts toys might focus his interests elsewhere. Good luck,very glad to see you getting early help,it can make an enormous difference whatever the reason.

I am very happy with tails on my dogs,tho' I would have prefered it be left to personal choice.I think the arguement that no-one asked for tails be left alone before legislation is irrelevent since a)it has taken time for people to get used to in some breeds. b)How can you pick a pup at 3 days old to say"hold the docking on that one". Many breeders would have refused to sell with out docking. I once had a woman tell me it would be cruel to leave tails on her boxers since she saw one once with a tail and it could not sit properly Though I don't like that we have legislation to force the issue,it has made it easier for those who prefer tails...they would have had a hard time before legislation to make that call and still be taken seriously should they want to show or breed with tails. Nothing against the practice at all if its done correctly,but I prefer my own dogs with tails now I am used to it and if their increased agility is due to the tail,all the more reason to be happy.

Dobes....I like the look of the docked tails,but I don't have any regrets now we have them with.I am used to the look and they now seem much more natural. Maybe coincidence,but the agility of our tailed dogs is very much better and I think the tail helps as a "rudder". I have never seen another dog like Moss on her feet,unless its a Foxy. :D

I would also be happy to pay more for a pup that was considered extra good by a breeder,if they have a reputation to back their opinionion. I do believe tho' that in guardian breeds at least,you can get a pretty good idea if a pup will measure up or not.Not fool proof ,and maybe some will dissagree with my personal pick,but you can tell a lot about dominance,nerve, some drives and basic personality.There will be some who clearly won't measure up to serious work. If I value what a a breeder is working to produce and their methods are proving effective, I would happily pay more for the pups showing best potential for the job.

I will have to try it in the interests. of science.Will be worth it just to see O.H try to catch me with a towel.

Trainers and behaviourists. Info. on laws, responsibilities and welfare. Novelty shows ie: best trained,best looking dog,cutest pup.(for non pedigree/show dogs .....Then breed reps with info. on pure breeds and possibly breed shows. Educational and fun for all dog owners.

Well done,both of you! Glad you are O.K ,its scarey realising how vulnerable we are. Lovely pics too!

Joe, If you know anything about breeds that have been used for fighting you will know that they're aggression is with other animals not people! Therefore it is not understandable if a "bull breed" runs across the road and bites someone!! Just because you think they have some genetic disposition to be aggressive does not mean this makes them Human Aggressive. This incident has nothing to do with breed whatsoever. However the outcomes may have, and fortunately being a GR he may be a luck boy. I think you misunderstood Joe. If I am right, Joe was trying to say that the circumstances are also different here in that Buster was in a situation where there was provocation.Fighting family members near a dog who has recently been in a traumatising situation and owners had little idea how to deal with his aggression,likely aggravating the situation. He is a breed not known for its fight drives.He is an older dog with no history of aggression but very much loved by friends and neighbours alike who have never had cause to fear him . He did not run out of his yard to attack strangers on what should be neutral territory and this does make a difference to peoples perceptions. Joe was speaking more of fight drive rather than dog fighting breeds.

I run 4 bitches and 1 dog. 1 is a SWF but the other 3 are working breed. The oldest girl is undisputed queen even now while she is getting very frail. All ignore the SWF even when she realy pushes her luck. 2 of the others are separated at all times,12 hours each in a run every day.I don't trust them to even walk past the other on leads after having one break loose.We have been able to break up both fights before any injuries but its plain to see we won't be so lucky if there is a next time. Both are fine with all the others,but as Joe says,they have a grudge and there is no cure. We have also run entire males together with no dramas,though there were rare scuffles soon forgotten.

I run 4 bitches and 1 dog. 1 is a SWF but the other 3 are working breed. The oldest girl is undisputed queen even now while she is getting very frail. All ignore the SWF even when she realy pushes her luck. 2 of the others are separated at all times,12 hours each in a run every day.I don't trust them to even walk past the other on leads after having one break loose.We have been able to break up both fights before any injuries but its plain to see we won't be so lucky if there is a next time. Both are fine with all the others,but as Joe says,they have a grudge and there is no cure. We have also run entire males together with no dramas,though there were rare scuffles soon forgotten.

Thank you, so very kind. Like the training make good dog, I hoping my chatting makes good english, yes?. I tell my wife I get on here for my english improving, but she ask why a dog forum to do this, she think I come here because for chat about dogs, nothing do do with learning better english, but is good excuse to chat dogs for me, but I dont think she believe me?. Never mind is good to chat dogs for pleasure anyway, yes? Joe Love it! I think your english is already improving and you've barely been here a week, Joe. May as well practice your english chatting about something you're interested in. :D X 2, and you do get your point across very effectively.

Mr Jeff, I am remembering a dog imported to Australia, perhaps in working circle you may seen him called Fax vom Grenzganger probably 10 year ago mentioning the black Shepherd dog I am thinking yes?. Fax and also Iwo vom the Grenzganger were dominant dogs, beautiful stance with the gazing eye of intent, but never nasty dogs. There are many others of course, but the Fax is one dog perhaps maybe indentify the type of personality in the dominance I speaking of? Joe Hi Joe, The dog in the video was a Fax son. It was a good video but seems to have been taken down. Greetings Jeff I think we reading on the same page with the dominance trait, as is not surprize to me learning of the Fax son. Fax was a very dominant dog, better dog (in my opinion) than his father Dolf ze Zakovy Hory (Czech lines). Dolf had the dominance and higher in the social aggression but hard dog to handle very reactive dog. Fax had the intent in his eyes, don't mess with me look, but was very calm stable dog until pressurised. Shame the youtube is not presenting video you speak, would have been good for demostration to the folks of dominance in the working dog that we speak. Joe Yes, That would have been good to see.Any other you can think of Jeff?

Yes, my lot are dominant to humans as well,but have been taught good manners so that this is not generaly obvious to most,unless they have reason to be "told." The oldest girl is the one who has universal respect with strange dogs giving in to her leadership right away...yet she is a very "polite" dog.She clearly sees herself as equall to us,her owners, in any company,dog or human.She rarely has to do more than give a poke with her nose to get any action to stop or a dog to listen.She has an incredible"roar" though that she uses now and again,mostly on pups or imature dogs. Funny to watch a grown male Dobe who was being over excited and playing too rough retreat with his bum tucked in and saying "OOOOHH!!" at her roar. With people,she is polite and very friendly as long as she is either off her home territory or if they have been addmitted.With out permission to enter they wont get in.(same with other 2)If once addmitted they break the rules,her actions will depend on the situation.Maybe just tell us ,maybe a soft growl and poke.Shes never had reason to do more and is very restrained so doesn't over react. I don't see her as the most dominant,just a natural leader with universal love and respect. The second bitch is a rougher diamond and less tolerant.We say she speaks once.She is more obvious in her body language and less restrained in her actions.She will give very clear warnings to people and dogs and they obey 1st time or pay the price.Shes learnet better restraint as she matures.She adores children and cats and has been known to growl at visitors who yell at their children while visiting.She is like a rock,immovable,calm and very no nonsense. The 3rd is a very bossy girl.In every ones face if we let her get away with that,very friendly,but provocative at the same time.Learning better as she matures but so fast and sharp she has been the hardest to raise.Very high fight and drive to dominate thats obvious in her play.The rougher the better.Very gentle with pups,but demanding they give more all the time.Playing with one of her own pups who was a female and extremely dominant and fearless,she seemed to be trying to push the pup to her limmits getting rougher the longer the game went till we intervened as the pup was being tossed and still going back fopr more. As a pup,when the oldest said "no play" this 3rd bitch would stand back out of range and bark with her bum up or run around her till the old girl gave in and got up to play.She is the irresistable force. In a more natural setting with out human intervention I believe the 3rd would be the pack leader/dominant female.She is very proactive,inventive,determined,persistent and physicaly skilled.A natural hunter,brilliant on her feet,quick to react and likes to make things to happen. All are very affectionate intelligent and trainable dogs who live on a farm very happily interacting with mini horses,free range chooks and often other animals.With welcome visitors the dogs are all friendly and well mannered to the extent that we have some times to demonstrate that the dogs can fire up if given good reason,so their good natures are not taken for granted(,ie at teen parties)yet they are very tolerant and protective of children.