moosmum

Seems these trolls like B.S.L not because they think its its the answer to dog attacks,but because its a step towards wiping out non ANKC papered dogs.Thats going to help the ANKC cause Kinda invalidates the pro B.S.L cause if its realy another thing entirely. :laugh: I'm sorry but where have I ever said that BSL is a good thing ? I certainly don't think for a second that BSL reduces bite stats. The methods of protest and defiance have all been met with deaf ears and BSL is not going away any time soon. Why would anyone want to wipe out non ANKC dogs. That statement is idiotic to say the least and the ANKC breeds have nothing to fear from BYBer's and mongrel bred dogs. There are not enough ANKC breeders now to meet the demand for puppies, so I'm not sure what purpose the elimination of other dogs would serve. But if telling people to buy a pup or dog from a registered breeder and make sure they have the ANKC papers and corresponding chip, earns me the tag of a troll, so be it ETA: if I did own a dog that could potentially be mistaken for a restricted breed or cross, I'd be collecting as much information as I could about my dog, it's parents, where it came from etc. I'd be proving parentage via DNA if possible, getting vet reports, behaviourist reports and anything else that might help my cause and lawyering up for the ride. Sorry Pav Lova if you took any part of my response to be aimed at you.It was not.Your posts have been considered and rational,definitely not troll-like. M-Sass has not and going by their posts in this thread and others,M-sass's agenda is not to reduce bite stats,but to eliminate non ANKC reg. dogs.I suspect "Steamboat" has a similar agenda.If thats the case,I don't think B.S.L should be a platform for their cause.I can't see ANKC being thrilled with the idea either. I think most B.S.L supporters genuinely want to reduce attacks,I just believe there are better ways that would have positive flow on effects rather than so many negatives for inocent people and their dogs. I don't have bull breeds or bull breed crosses,but I do have concerns that deed takes second place to breed.

So you are wanting innocent dogs to be killed? Some dog lover you are. They are dying now. Why break a dog lover's heart by allowing them to adopt a dog with a death sentence over its head. Campaign for breed assessment but in the meantime don't set families up for heartbreak. I agree.Heartbreaking to see good dogs given no chance,but could be doubly heart breaking other wise.

Seems these trolls like B.S.L not because they think its its the answer to dog attacks,but because its a step towards wiping out non ANKC papered dogs.Thats going to help the ANKC cause Kinda invalidates the pro B.S.L cause if its realy another thing entirely. :laugh:

Sigh......the further it goes, the sadder it gets. Where did I ever say I agreed with BSL? What I said was "Bad laws are still laws". You would do well to remember that. It's the centre point of the whole sh1t fight. I also said I agree with the coroners splendid idea that owners & not councils, should be responsible for the identification of their breed if it should become an issue. Like after it has chewed a kid to death for instance. That was it. the rest was your mob...up & running. Circling the wagons & chanting the same old same old from the song book of past anti BSL failed strategies. Now we are into "scar tissue of old panics"...what ever the hell that is supposed to mean....sounds like Julia sounding off at Tony again - reds under the beds?, silver bullets & werewolves? It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. Any wonder BSL is so firmly entrenched. Your style is not part of the solution, it's part of the problem. B.t.w, I didn't see YOUR measures to ensure public safety. Did I miss them? Yes,you did miss them....links hav been provided which you have obviously not bothered to read. No one here is saying you should break the law. The contentious issue as you yourself have said is putting onus on the owners of dogs to prove they are not pittbull or crosses of. Yes,people can choose to own dogs with no bull breed or ANKC registered bull breeds with papers,take precautions to keep dogs safe etc etc. But you refuse to answer How does a person with any cross breed,unpapered dog prove that it has no pittbull with such arbitrary criteria? I'm talking about whippet X lab,cattle dog X pointer,greyhound X whatever.None of which have any bull breed yet could produce results that once grown,might have a vague resemblence to a pit cross.If owner and dog have been doing every thing right by the book and the dog is "noticed" for ANY REASON ,even walking calmly on lead with its owner,its at risk.As pups those same dogs may have looked vastly different and people assume if they are doing the right things,they will will be safe.They are not. You are not trying to rationaly discuss anything.You telling us your argument for onus of proof being on the owners is it.You can't validate anything and won't look at alternate info.that validates any other option.Useless excersise .

Wow! Great links Mixeduppup and Asal! Re; The dingo link and controversy over best course of preservation: Seems to preserve pure strains,you would need breeders keeping them in relative captivity to preserve enough genetic diversity.Licenced and approved breeders for different strains of the species.Accept domestication,but with controls. Wild populations in preserved areas could be a separate issue,but there would be preserved stocks of relatively pure strains to fall back on or put in..I would hate to see the "Pure' strains bred for any purpose other than keeping the integrity of the species.Maybe a C.S.I R.O type program.

Great links,Thanks Espinay! I hadn't seen such research with animals,but have used Vitamin C to treat many of the conditions mentioned with excellent results. (feline influenza,pain relief,fertility in horses etc)after reading some earlier publications on research with humans. Nice to see back up evidence I can refer to.And broaden my use.

Some one in that thread should be able to explain why they use it for that purpose,but Vitamin C is known to promote healthy connective tissue.Maybe that includes tendon and cartilage? I find it a useful "boost" for repair and immunity.

Fine,You have a different opinion.You are the one accusing every one else of tunnel vision for not agreeing with you. :laugh: But you still haven't answered the question just how a person can prove their dog has no pittbull breeding.Dogs that come the attention of the authorities haven't always done so because they or their owners have done some thing wrong.Far from it. The coroners recommendation is a means of broadening B.S.L to include anything unknown.The way to prevent dog attacks? If in doubt,kill it. Not based on the behaviour of the dog,not based on the owners lack of responsibility or knowledge of specific dog management,but based purely on fear (of what might happen) and ignorance (of how to avoid it) I.M.O a witch hunt. Incidentaly,there are many many dogs with no bull breed whatsoever in their breeding that are at risk with this legislation based on looks and fear.Untill the real causes of dog attacks are addressed and tackled,the legislation only only increases the fear and hysteria to no real end.

This is pretty much how I see it too. I don't think anyone is seriously comparing wolves to dingos tho'. I mentioned my experience in response to to a comment that wolves can't be domesticated based on recent research.My point being that I didn't think the research was definitive because wolf populations have undergone changes.The traits that might make domestication possible have been 'culled" from populations,maybe just dormant and could recurr in the right situation. Doesn't mean I think we should try to domesticate them or breed wolf hybrids.It doesn't mean I think when it does happen,the results should be assumed to be "wrong" either. As for Dingos,No,I don't think my sister should have had a hybrid Dingo.She shouldn't have had a G.S.D at that time either,let alone a working line but thats pretty much what she had. If you asked me "Should anyone who wants one be able to have a dingo,I would have to say no.I don't think any one who wants one should have a working line G.S.D or Malinoise. There are similarities here to the thread on crating where I don't think judgement or blanket statements acheive anything.

Differences of opinion are fine.Labeling a whole village across the world "sick,sick, sick isn't all because a wolf doesn't behave as you are told they do,or as some hybrids even. Our village ended up with hybrid pups being born when a wolf wasn't afraid enough to avoid human habitation.I was the 1st to report a sighting that wasn't taken seriously because of my age.In broad daylight,across the road from our house.We watched each other for about 10 seconds before he melted into the trees.The "dog" who 1st got the blame for the litter MAY also have been a hybrid.He used to pull a sled in winter and a small wagon in summer,often with the neighbourhood kids.He lived with kids and wasn't a fearfull dog ,digging holes to hide.Nor were the pups. Things aren't always black and white. Kinda jealous of your childhood, it sounds like Balto. I have no complaints :D

Differences of opinion are fine.Labeling a whole village across the world "sick,sick, sick isn't all because a wolf doesn't behave as you are told they do,or as some hybrids even. Our village ended up with hybrid pups being born when a wolf wasn't afraid enough to avoid human habitation.I was the 1st to report a sighting that wasn't taken seriously because of my age.In broad daylight,across the road from our house.We watched each other for about 10 seconds before he melted into the trees.The "dog" who 1st got the blame for the litters MAY also have been a hybrid.He used to pull a sled in winter and a small wagon in summer,often with the neighbourhood kids.He lived with kids and wasn't a fearfull dog ,digging holes to hide.Nor were the pups. Things aren't always black and white. My sighting was confirmed as the wolf grew more confident and the pups had all been homed.The wolf was shot in our neighbours back yard a year later .The neighbour was the sherrif and had one of the pups.

...And your view narrow,to label those who have posted here Orrd,based on your own experience.

Agreed. I haven't seen anyone here promoting the idea of keeping wolves or wolf hybrids.Discussing results of experiments in domestication, or hybrids people have encountered is hardly the same thing.

When I recently went back to Canada I noticed it was very rare for a house yard to be fenced,at least the area I was.Dogs were either inside,crated or chained.Every ones back yards met in the middle,creating a huge park like area with vegie gardens or groves of trees,garden sheds etc.Looked lovely and great for kids,neighbours etc,but not the best good relations if you let your dogs out.Not how I would want to keep dogs. Each culture is different and adapts in their own way,and so do we.We are all looking from different perspectives.If we can't respect that,we're only going to get some thing else to divide the dog world.Doesn't mean we can't talk about it and look at the issues. I figure my dogs are working companions.They were bred to be that and are happiest doing their jobs.When they are confined,they can't do their jobs and aren't learning to do them better.They sleep a lot,but the moment I walk towards the door the dogs are with me and even sleeping,are ready to work if needed. You could keep them in town and left alone for long periods,they would adapt.But its not what they were bred for it and would be a waste of their inteligence and abilities.In town living as part of the family,lots of training and human companionship,fine. Some breeds cope better than others and individuals don't always fit the mould,but to me choosing dogs for your life style would include considerations like crating.Some dogs are destructive because they are bored.Seems sad to me that crating a bored dog is seen as a solution. Knowing what we expect of our dogs we can bred for it.

I understand te appeal of a "den",my own like their favourite spots in den like places,but I'd be asking whats so wrong with the pen. :laugh: I was totaly unfamiliar with the use of crates when I 1st joined DOL and it realy jumped out at me the number of people who said they crate while at work and night,and lots of other times as well.I still see it now and again but it kinda sails past and doesn't register like it did,now I'm more familiar with the idea of crating and how usefull it is for some. Its likely not as prevalent as we 1st think either,but Its there..

Different management systems for different situations...You are no more familiar with Eyeopeners system than they are with yours,so since it was asked if the perspective was way off base,an explanation would be fair? I am lucky enough to live in a similar situation to Eyeopers,but I realise how lucky that is after my introduction to DOL. Out of 5,some times 6 dogs only one is regularly in a kennel run,and I feel awful for her,and guilty though shes out every day and part of the evening.I'll take care in choosing the next to avoid that. My dogs are trained to stay in the acre yard unless out with one of us by invitation,and in the house together if we are out,on their beds and toys /company for any pups.Live stock some times shares the yard,chooks always and lots of wild life.The only one who MAY break the rules is the one kenneled when we can't keep an eye on her. We walk the rest with out leads on the rest of the property when we do,usualy when snakes are less active.The dogs have good recall.We don't have dead live stock,plenty of live wildlife here darting out underfoot with no kills yet. I can understand the need to crate for most,But I think there can be over reliance on crating for some and it shouldn't always be the 1st option. I know I am lucky,and would learn to crate if I had to live like most others.But good management and breeding comes into it too,so we have dogs that fit into the circumstances they are bred for,and that they go to those places.It shouldn't be a case of "putting them away when not in use",but breeding and choosing dogs who are not a nuisance. There are good reasons to crate,for some they are excuses and it is open to abuse.

Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? I heard that the inuit people used to breed their sled dogs back to wolves every 4th/6th generation.If true,would mean the original sled dogs had a very high proportion of wolf. The degree of domestication looked for in the experiments on domestication of wolves wasn't clear to me from the Doco. I watched. The experience of the cubs handlers in wolf pack structure and comunication would also have a bearing on results I think?

In the case of the silver foxes,they were selecting for "tameness".It wasn't some thing that happened on its own, the changes that occured in ears,colouring etc seem to be a product of the "tame" gene. Being nerdly,I think there are differences in European wolves to North American.Were the experiments on domesticating wolves done with both I wonder? Perhaps wolves sourced from North America,who had been living near native ("Indian")populations would have have a slightly more positive out come? Native Americans didn't persecute the wolves,but appreciated them for keeping the herds they depended on healthy. In comparing Dingos to wolves in a domestic setting,I think the silver fox experiment also shows how quickly what we do affects genetics. European wolves have been persecuted for centuries,effectively culling any "domestic gene" . North American wolves have also been perscuted,but for far less time.When I was a kid there was still a lot of people who could pass on 1st hand knowledge.

Ahhh,Progress. There was only one disease to be aware of when I was involved,testing recommended if using certain lines. Few in my breed as yet,unless colour related Ie Lethal white overo and testing not mandatory.Its still assumed people know what they are doing.

I don't mind a reference to Gumtree if its some thing of note and some purpose behind it ie the dingo pups, but idiot alerts are not note worthy.We all know they are there are plenty of those.

My sister had a dingo cross GSD years ago,lived in the inner city of sydney,often with a tiny yard but Sophie coped well.I looked after her when my sister was away on our country property and there she was a handfull,but not as bad as some dogs.She wanted to chase the live stock,but never wandered and it was more curiosity than prey driving her. She was a very very intelligent dog though,and very active in seeking stimulation.My sisters flat mates were driven to distraction at times.They always said she was much better behaved whwen she returned from my place because my sister had no idea of training.I watched her trying to get S's attention when she was on the phone.When nothing worked she stood over the rubbish bin untill my sister looked her way,THEN grabbed a mouthfull of rubbish and ran. :laugh: Chronic bench surfer.S put yucky stuff ther for her to take hoping she would get the message(chillis in meat I think)but she just looked at S and went for more. Very friendly girl,but with guarding insticts too if she thought someone was threatening my sister. Sophie liveed a long life with my sister long after she was married with children and adapted well to the changes. A very strange looking girl.She had the body of a pure GSD but much bigger! topped with the head of a pure dingo :D My family also had wolf/GSD hybrid pups when I was 4yrs old,but no idea how they turned out,I was way too young.I do remember they were all grey with no shep markings ,just a couple had small white bits on toes or chest and 1 black pup. Hillbilly days.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out. This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses. Yep,I think the trend started with the Arabs,both egyptian and Polish lines.Along with the notion that line breeding should be viewed as the norm rather than an exception,used to "capture" unique type and traits not easily available otherwise. I've not been involved with the arabs for years now,but 30 years ago,the trend was well underway. Interesting to think horses might soon be in the same position as dogs,with health tests needed before breeding.

Agree with the above post. M-Sass, I have witnessed a dog attack on a child.The dog went for the throat.Jumped up and place his paws on the childs shoulders and preceeded to bite the neck.The child (10 yrs old) put her hands on the dogs shoulders to hold him back and he kept biting anywhere he could reach- shoulders,wrists,upper arms,breasts.The attack only stopped when I got my own dog to get the attacker. There was no warning and I am confident in saying that.There was no growling or noise even while the attack was happening. Guess the breed? This was a pedigree,with papers G.R. Police and military are using mostly Mals these days for several reasons.Temperament and trainability of pedigree dogs in many of the traditionaly used breeds is LESS PREDICTABLE and reliable than it once was when these dogs were being bred for work first,by people with a working knowledge of those breeds.A working knowledge of the breed(s) is no longer seen as a requirement to breed good dogs,so long as they can win a few shows and have good conformation.The traits that made those breeds great at their jobs is no longer a priority and health issues have also impacted in a big way. Malinoise have so far avoided most of those issues.They're not yet widely accepted or popular with the public as companion animals.Their breeding is more task specific ATM.Prey drive plays a very big part in that and is encouraged because it is a very effecient training tool.Training now is more standardised practice than it once was and efficiency and standarisation is apreciated when fewer people have that working background to begin with.High prey drive allows for that.(but I.M.O doesn't do much for more traditional breeds that were developed before training in prey drive became standard expectation) I.M.O more problems are created by people with no working knowledge of dogs,let alone individual breeds and their specialities,deciding they can read a breed standard so are qualified to breed.Pedigree or not. Edited to add: With working knowledge,even cross breds have a definite place.The assumed predictability of pure breeds allows for cross breeds to be bred for specific purposes and situations that might not be catered for in pedigree dogs.Anyone who still depends on dogs in an every day,varied or unusual working capacity can tell you.Some of us do.To have some one with no knowledge of us,our needs or abilities telling us ANKC reg. dogs will solve all problems is IMO showing ignorance of basic issues.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.