moosmum

Plants can be used for noise reduction. L.A freeways used pig weed,I'm sure a bit of research could find alternative species that might also be able to restrict view in some kennels that could be reserved for more reactive/noisy dogs.

We took a 3 month old pup to a camping reunion with family. In the evening with a huge crowd around the fire and wandering among the tents a bloke yelled out in horrified voice,pointing to my dog "This dogs been beaten!" I was ! I asked why he thought he could know that.It was because she wouldn't let him pat her and flinched away when he kept trying. All her life she just didn't like being touched on the body by strangers.No problems with us,though she didn't like things like tummy rubs or being brushed and would dance away like it was funny/a game.She was just very ticklish! She was the most confident and stable of dogs and loved head pats and rubs from anyone,was great with children,other dogs and any animals I cared to introduce her to. A touch any where on her torso would make her jump out of reach. No way had she ever been beaten. We got her from her breeder at 6 weeks.

Poor woman. So many heard,and none investigated.

None very regal :laugh: But I have on my list Clark Jose Bede Radar Dizzy And used already...Alias. Another is Whoopy,but could get you few looks calling that one at the dog park :D

Sigh. For the record and those who may not be able to follow: No where have I "stated" or even sugested that ANKC,state bodies or their members support BSL.

It exists in the form of the "associate register" for any desexed mutt, mongrel, non papered look-a-like and dogs of unknown parentage There's also the "sporting register" which allows for the "working" dogs such as those Kelpies registered with WKC, to be listed on the register, remain entire and compete in agility, herding etc. The purpose of the KC's is to maintain the "Pedigree" dog register, not to provide "novelty events" for dogs that are not recognised in any way Don't you find it hypocrital that some manning the ramparts screaming ''save the pitbulls'' & accusing the pure bred registeries & owners of not only supporting BSL but revelling in the ''slaughter'' are the same persons supporting the puppy millers, bred for profit only, shelter choking produce. If the truth be known, there are probably more abandoned "oodles:, deliberatly bred mongrels, put down in week than there are pittie ''types'' in a whole year. Disgusting and ill informed misrepresentaion of the truth? You do it so well. Where have I Screamed "defend the Pitt bulls? Where have I accused pure breed registers of supporting BSL or reveling in the slaughter? I assure you I don't hold you or M-sass as representative spokes persons for the KCs. Where do I support puppy millers or bred for profit only? I support responsible breeding by anyone who undertakes it,on the grounds that you will not stop cross breeding,but thats no excuse to say it shouldn't be done with out thought or care about the results.I will never support breeding for profit only. I believe the KCs could be in a far better position themselves, stronger than ever,with more support and membership,better financialy,politicaly and far less misunderstood if they accept that today,an expanded role is appropriate. KCs could have much more say in legislation and policy. Find a way to show it is REALY about better dogs,not JUST show dogs.If I had no regard for the KCs,I would hardly be urging them to fill the gaping holes before a real KC adversary does,for dogs sake.You can be sure D.D inc. will be quick to recognise the potential and use it to swing things their way. My only argument with you has been the proof of breeding onus being on the owner in cases where there is real doubt.You have made it quite clear you don't care that innocent people are caught up in this mess so long as they are only cross breeds we are talking about. I may disagree with M-sass's reasoning,but can respect that it IS reasoned.

What's wrong with a bit of creative management........we are talking box tickers here......what would you need to produce for a ranger to leave happily without your dog on a seizure mission In my experience (which is more than you would think), a switched on and Hitleresque lawyer!! m-sass And do you think it is fair, reasonable and equitable that someone should acquire a cute puppy which is the product of two crossbred dogs - neither of which have any pitbull - and when it grows up, it is tan with light eyes, it never does anything wrong, and it is sitting on the lawn one day, minding its own business when the ACO comes and grabs it, and the council will not let the owners see it again, or have the body returned after they have knocked it off? Can you tell me why that dog should die? It's not a pitbull. It has never done anything wrong. It should be killed, why? Someone who only thinks purebred dogs should continue to live, is not, imho, a true dog lover. Mantis, of course you are correct. Its even worse when they actively promote and support B.S.L to that end.Thats more than just not caring,or prefering Pedigrees.Thats hate. Extremism. I also think they are who they say.Different styles.Even scarier. I keep trying to find a way to say it with out offending any one.I can't but that attitude is fostered here on Dol.(and else where )There has to be a better way to bring change than labeling anyone who breeds out side of the KCs as irresponsible.Mostly it may be so, but its not a given.Its taught to be a given.These guys believe it whole heartedly enough to cheer on a slaughter. If the KCs could find a way to include non pedigree dogs, (Appendix registries? Novelty show events? Something?)They could be gaining new members who learn about goals and purpose. The Kcs would gain a big voice.And be given some thing new to to measure themselves against,even if only in novelty events. Otherwise,there are new registries popping up that cater only for D.D and commercial farms who are just as extreme,or more, towards the KCS. They will take up the slack and the KCs will suffer for that. If I get booted for these views,so be it.

I believe you re; no high drive dog being close to a wolf.You are prob. right too as to dogs getting easier in recent years for the environment over all. I have no problem with modified prey drives and know there ares many uses.I meant similar in mode of expression.A dog who has to be constantly watched for prey drift when your other dogs show fear or uncertainty,or get a small wound was more work than help for me. If others find that usefull fair enough.But I think some could get more than they bargain for breeding for high prey drives with out keeping modifications in mind too.

What a great experience that would have been!I'd have loved to do that when I was younger.I used to feed a small group of Timber wolves kept in a tiny enclosure at the local park when I was a kid,but the were poor excuses of wolves,stunted and 1/2 starved,kept in terrible conditions. Re the wolves intensity and prey drive,after working with dogs that had a similar intensity and prey drive, It bothers me seeing high prey drives sought and bred for training purposes.Expressed like that,its a huge backward step that goes against whats been accomplished over thousands of years and requires all your attention,at all times. Sure gives you an insight into pack structure and dynamics tho'!

I would be interested in your impresions. :) I have seen them and crosses before but never had to deal with them closely and on a daily basis. I am making sure one exercise yard is escape proof and unable to be climbed out of as I hear they are as nimble as a cat and I won't risk her climbing out. All the runs are escape proof but the yards are not fully enlosed(as in over the top) - yet!Theya re 1.8metres high adn double fenced but I am not taking any risks. Will let you know how I find her :) When I was a young child a local lady had a Fox she kept as a pet. He has his own run and a very securely fenced yard and was only taken out on a leash, not that he seemed to mind, he loved pats and was a very curious creature. I don't remember him smelling? but I was only around 5 I have only dealt with 2 dingo crosses. Never "pure".To handle,both were far more like dogs.The Gsd was 1/4 dingo (not 1st cross as said earlier,my memory slipped )the other was likely even less but no way to know.There were little differences tho' that might go un-noticed if you didn't know of the breeding.The GSD was a real handfull,but I loved her inteligence! She was very focused on people and reading them,loved to be interacting on some level but pleasing them wasn't always her aim :laugh: The other was a much quieter dog but both would notice and react to things differently.More curious? I remember hearing barking outside near the door and went to investigate.The dog was staring at the ground and telling something off.When I looked closer,It was an ant! :laugh:

I would be interested in your impresions. :)

Hey Orrd? Don't go away.There are some great stories here.Just try not to judge us till you've heard 'em. :)

I don't know how many times one has to repeat something before it gets through the ingrained bias rife here. But, again. I agreed with the coroner that owners of the suspected restricted dogs should be liable to for the indentification of the breed & not the councils which declare them.. That, & "bad laws are still laws" are the sum totals of my crimes against the rabid mob mentallity. While you all rail against crimes against the ''innocent'' yet practice exactly the tactics you complain about. Starts with an aitch folks a capitol AITCH. Your "Crimes" (your words not ours) are not that you don't agree,but you refuse to answer fair questions or read evidence presented. You call any reasoned defense to your arguments "rabid mob mentality" Your arguments are based on ridicule, insults and irrational statements.You seem incapable of disagreeing with out ridicule.That looks pretty "rabid" to me.The only ingrained bias is your own. I will be ignoring you from here on.You're too irrational for me.

Steamboat, Won't let me reply directly to your question re what breeds or crosses do I own. Its no secret,but not relevent to this thread.Working companions with no bull breed will do.Various breeds. Last Bull breed I had was 30 years ago.

I thought they might be,but wasn't sure. Thats cool! :)

And If you are seriously advocating the abolition of all non pedigree dogs,bear in mind you better be sure they can stand alone in future. You are losing a valuable part of the evolution of breeds that has acted as a base stock for as long as man has kept dogs.Its only in the last few hundred years that most pure breeds have been so actively isolated from their "feeder stock" and instead become the feeder stock. If you want to finaly sever all ties with a what man collectively acheived over thousands of years in favour of pedigree only,Then you better be damned sure you have it down perfectly because man will be very unforgiving of your mistakes.You will lose any means to measure your sucess or failure except against other increasingly narrowed lines of Pure breeds. You are only beginning to see the results of policies that focus on purity rather than qualities tested and proven in the field against against all commers,that came up trumps time and again and formed types that became breeds.Valued for their specific qualties. All done with out rocket science and pedigrees. The random dogs that might be in more than one pure breed because it hadsome thing unique and valuable in its time,taken for granted now. You can't know what you might lose.

So the government has definitely listened to the THAT'S NOT A PITBULL but a CROSSBREED cry and with the collection of data where Pitbull types have been falsely registered as crossbreeds.......what??, you can't understand why they are targeting crossbreeds??.........I surely can!! Do those worried about their dogs of unknown heritage really have as much to fear as the owners of the pure breeds most commonly nominated in the pit bull masquarade? The amstaff & staffy in particular & to a lesser extend the bull mastif, rhodesian ridgeback, the labrador etc. Some of these breeds have already been banned in various locations simply by the association. Do they even really care about the fate of the at risk pure breeds? I'm guessing the coroner of this thread recognised the M.O. of the owners of suspected restricted breeds & made her suggestion to place the onus of identification on the owner rather than them claiming "xbreed'' & challenging the authorities to prove otherwise. The easiest option is impose a blanket ban to cover all the possibilities. As has happened O/S If it came to pass here, your ANKC papers wouldn't be your saviour. 1) Obviously ATM they have more to fear. 2)Of course they care about the fate of at risk pedigrees.Its a point you have been ignoring till now.Seems you might be starting to see a little more than you were about why we don't see B.S.L as a solution.You haven't cared about anyone else,but now you bring up who cares about you. 3) I don't contest at all that a lot of people have been directly responsible for these measures being brought in.I do contest "The easiest option" as you put it,is the right one,or even the effective one. Oh dear, Stop being so ridiculous, & stop making such ridiculous assumptions. You lot really are one trick ponies. People make their own choices. Those that chose a dog of indeterminal heritage which bears a striking resemblance to a breed subject to a legislation that demands a strict criterior for ownership made their own choices. BSL has been in place for over a decade. So obviously they have made a conscience decision & chose the ''type'' they wanted. Hey, what do we care?......Let the Devil take tomorrow. Well hello It's tomorrow. So why should those who chose an ANKC registered pure breed have to pay the piper for a jig called by others? There are thousands more ANKC registered family pets than there are ANKC registered "show dogs" ANKC registered dog owners made their choice because they are diserning. They want to know what they will have when the cute wears off. They want to know what they are getting for their buck. Too smart by half. B.t.w. Being ANKC registered isn't some sort of ritualistic secret society that is the secretive realm only for the annointed. All ANKC registered breeders are required to register all surviving whelps. So wipe away the crocodile tears, take the responsibility for your actions & if you are unhappy with the outcomes, take aim at those who instigated the B.S.L Joe Public. If you want support, You should keep this in mind, You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If I ever have a pittbull,I'm gonna call it steam roller. :laugh:

M-Sass, Though I can understand your logic and even to some degree sympathise,I think its simplistic. You are clearly of the opinion that there is no place or need any more for dogs of unrecognised breeding,and that pedigee dogs offer all that we can or should ever want. I disagree on both those points. I am not anti pure breed/pedigree.Its a wonderfull thing for a person who has a very specific understanding of what they want in a dog to be able to say "I can get it here",and know their choice is the right one that ticks all the boxes.Its healthy,bred for specific purpose and /or traits,has good conformation and is bred to be the very best it can be for those qualities. Used to be 1st point of call for those who wanted something realy special,and they would be right 95% of the time,or more. I would love that to be the case again.Its one of the reasons I come to this forum,because I AM passionate about pedigree dogs.I also happen to think the KCs seem to have it together more than any other group of dog enthusiasts I can think of. On the other hand,I don't think they are immune to the problems faced by any group of dog enthusiasts in trying to keep pace with the changes in society. I believe those problems have far more devastating effect on pedgree dogs,and far more rapid than most seem to believe. It bugs hell out of me to see pedigree dogs fall,and open discussion of how to reverse that,or the causes closed and denied. Pedigree breeders AS A GROUP seem to think they are issolated and persecuted and react by hitting back,but thats not just happening to pedigree dog enthusiasts.Dogs in society are under attack in all quarters.Yes,there are some areas in urgent need of reforms.Welfare issues are a major part of that,partly because society IS changing for the better and looking at the issues. I will even say that breeders of non pedigree dogs are IN GENERAL the worst offenders on most counts.But if no one is willing to addmitt the problems and and calmly look for solutions,picking on the worst offenders and eliminating them one by one is only going to work while theres another mob to pick on.

So the government has definitely listened to the THAT'S NOT A PITBULL but a CROSSBREED cry and with the collection of data where Pitbull types have been falsely registered as crossbreeds.......what??, you can't understand why they are targeting crossbreeds??.........I surely can!! Do those worried about their dogs of unknown heritage really have as much to fear as the owners of the pure breeds most commonly nominated in the pit bull masquarade? The amstaff & staffy in particular & to a lesser extend the bull mastif, rhodesian ridgeback, the labrador etc. Some of these breeds have already been banned in various locations simply by the association. Do they even really care about the fate of the at risk pure breeds? I'm guessing the coroner of this thread recognised the M.O. of the owners of suspected restricted breeds & made her suggestion to place the onus of identification on the owner rather than them claiming "xbreed'' & challenging the authorities to prove otherwise. The easiest option is impose a blanket ban to cover all the possibilities. As has happened O/S If it came to pass here, your ANKC papers wouldn't be your saviour. 1) Obviously ATM they have more to fear. 2)Of course they care about the fate of at risk pedigrees.Its a point you have been ignoring till now.Seems you might be starting to see a little more than you were about why we don't see B.S.L as a solution.You haven't cared about anyone else,but now you bring up who cares about you. 3) I don't contest at all that a lot of people have been directly responsible for these measures being brought in.I do contest "The easiest option" as you put it,is the right one,or even the effective one.

I'm not up to much of a response M-Sass,saying some good bys to an old friend . I do follow your reasoning and see where you are coming from now. I still can't see B.S.L as a real solution to dog attacks when other avenues could have benefits for most average dog owners(and dogs) in so many other areas as well.Not when I expect to see more dog attacks occuring even if B.S.L were sucessfull.I can't see the colateral damage as acceptable when people who have done nothing wrong get accidentaly caught up in this.I can't accept with out argument that a calm,stable dog with responsible owners who have put in the hard yards should be killed because he looks like there a possibility of bull breed in there some where when some gitt down the road who could ruin any dog and make it a danger has no such problem just because he chooses another.

And this is where you're going wrong. People aren't advocating the breeding of crossbreed dogs. People are saying that just because certain dogs happen to be a crossbreed, it doesn't mean it should be killed. When there are breed restrictions in place which has been the case for 20 odd years, if you happen to have a crossbreed dog who resembles a restricted breed and you can't prove it isn't, then you have a problem which has always been the case. If someone doesn't know what they are buying in terms of breed or know how a puppy may turn out physically as an adult, that's the chance you take with crossbreed dogs.........my point is, if don't want to be tangled up with BSL problems, don't buy dogs like that, plenty of BSL safe choices. But for many people being affected it wasn't the case when when they bought their dogs at all.Its not about choices,but removing choices. B.S.L doesn't accept responsible choices or responsible ownership,It reinforces the notion breeders (supply) are responsible for any mess and joe public shouldn't have to consider their choices or management. I don't disagree with every thing you say M-Sass,but I think you support B.S.L for all the wrong reasons and to me,it just high lights the dangers.

And this is where you're going wrong. People aren't advocating the breeding of crossbreed dogs. People are saying that just because certain dogs happen to be a crossbreed, it doesn't mean it should be killed. When there are breed restrictions in place which has been the case for 20 odd years, if you happen to have a crossbreed dog who resembles a restricted breed and you can't prove it isn't, then you have a problem which has always been the case. If someone doesn't know what they are buying in terms of breed or know how a puppy may turn out physically as an adult, that's the chance you take with crossbreed dogs.........my point is, if don't want to be tangled up with BSL problems, don't buy dogs like that, plenty of BSL safe choices. M-Sass,On one hand you argue in favour of B.S.L as a solution and tell us the parameters won't be changed or broadened.That people who do the right thing have nothing to fear as long as they are ANKC members,or only buy ANKC Reg. dogs. On the other hand,you show us just how easy it is to use that fear to broaden the parameters and include dogs that were never intended targets and have done nothing wrong.

Nice one. The ANKC has a published policy of being anti-BSL. That is a very cheap shot and an utterly undeserved one. Seems some folk can't tell friend from foe on this issue. I had intended the icons to convey sarcasm and it was not a cheap shot at ANKC,but trying to get the message through that they aren't doing ANKC any favours.

This is essentially a pure breed forum is it not??, personally I don't like crossbreed dogs to the point of owning one, even having a good crossbreed dog, how do you replicate the traits of unknown bloodlines and ancestory to produce good dogs into the future........personally I am not into throwing males and females together to produce lucky dips or neither do I support BYB practices I think it stinks, so perhaps the supporters of crossbreeds anti BSL crusaders which ultimately supports crossbreeds BYB's and breeds unrecognised in the pure breed registries are on the wrong forum??. Why on a pure breed forum are people trolls because they support only pure breed dogs............wouldn't it be common sense to expect on a pure breed forum to encounter people not supportive of crossbreeds and restricted breeds and their look a likes?? Because not everyone supports restricted breeds and crossbreeds doesn't make them trolls, but it's interesting to see debates unfold where the BSL supporters are lost for answers which to me is obvious as a loosing battle, a waste of time I think people need to accept the laws and get on with it and next time don't buy a dog who's breed cannot be proven to satisfy the requirements? As to your questions M-Sass,I do have some answers for you,but this is not the place.As you have pointed out,this is a pedigree forum and it would not be appropriate.But it should'nt be relevent to reducing dog attacks were that your primary goal.

You seem to have an awful lot to say about subjects you seem quite uninformed on yourself. Dingos are not wolves. You clearly have no idea about whether or not they can be managed as pets or not. You make sweeping generalisations about owners of bull breeds and suggest those dogs all bred specifically for dog fights. Maybe 200 years ago - but not today. Otherwise we'd all be able to hear dog fights from home. You also make a sweeping and ill informed generalisations about ANKC breeders. And also about the obligations of puppy sellers in the markets. Times are a changing - try to keep up. In QLD, NSW and Vic it is illegal to sell puppies without microchips http://www.dsdip.qld.gov.au/laws-and-codes/pet-owners.html I don't think I can point to a single post of yours in this thread where my understanding of what is fact in the world matches yours. And the things you've written about ANKC pure bred dogs specifically GSD and the breeders and the shows breach a number of forum rules and you wonder why people are getting upset with you. It's not your written expression - it's more how you think and what you think is true and you call us "stupid and ignorant" - get the plank out your own eye. Amen. BTW I have had a Dingo Hybrid,now I think on it,but it was pretty diluted by working kelpie and B.C so we realy never gave it much thought.Very dingo looking,but the "saddle" I have to say the same thing,she was a ...Dog. :) Curious Orrd that you have no problem with Dingos suitability for pets but disagree with their breeding and sale On what grounds then?