moosmum

When I recently went back to Canada I noticed it was very rare for a house yard to be fenced,at least the area I was.Dogs were either inside,crated or chained.Every ones back yards met in the middle,creating a huge park like area with vegie gardens or groves of trees,garden sheds etc.Looked lovely and great for kids,neighbours etc,but not the best good relations if you let your dogs out.Not how I would want to keep dogs. Each culture is different and adapts in their own way,and so do we.We are all looking from different perspectives.If we can't respect that,we're only going to get some thing else to divide the dog world.Doesn't mean we can't talk about it and look at the issues. I figure my dogs are working companions.They were bred to be that and are happiest doing their jobs.When they are confined,they can't do their jobs and aren't learning to do them better.They sleep a lot,but the moment I walk towards the door the dogs are with me and even sleeping,are ready to work if needed. You could keep them in town and left alone for long periods,they would adapt.But its not what they were bred for it and would be a waste of their inteligence and abilities.In town living as part of the family,lots of training and human companionship,fine. Some breeds cope better than others and individuals don't always fit the mould,but to me choosing dogs for your life style would include considerations like crating.Some dogs are destructive because they are bored.Seems sad to me that crating a bored dog is seen as a solution. Knowing what we expect of our dogs we can bred for it.

I understand te appeal of a "den",my own like their favourite spots in den like places,but I'd be asking whats so wrong with the pen. :laugh: I was totaly unfamiliar with the use of crates when I 1st joined DOL and it realy jumped out at me the number of people who said they crate while at work and night,and lots of other times as well.I still see it now and again but it kinda sails past and doesn't register like it did,now I'm more familiar with the idea of crating and how usefull it is for some. Its likely not as prevalent as we 1st think either,but Its there..

Different management systems for different situations...You are no more familiar with Eyeopeners system than they are with yours,so since it was asked if the perspective was way off base,an explanation would be fair? I am lucky enough to live in a similar situation to Eyeopers,but I realise how lucky that is after my introduction to DOL. Out of 5,some times 6 dogs only one is regularly in a kennel run,and I feel awful for her,and guilty though shes out every day and part of the evening.I'll take care in choosing the next to avoid that. My dogs are trained to stay in the acre yard unless out with one of us by invitation,and in the house together if we are out,on their beds and toys /company for any pups.Live stock some times shares the yard,chooks always and lots of wild life.The only one who MAY break the rules is the one kenneled when we can't keep an eye on her. We walk the rest with out leads on the rest of the property when we do,usualy when snakes are less active.The dogs have good recall.We don't have dead live stock,plenty of live wildlife here darting out underfoot with no kills yet. I can understand the need to crate for most,But I think there can be over reliance on crating for some and it shouldn't always be the 1st option. I know I am lucky,and would learn to crate if I had to live like most others.But good management and breeding comes into it too,so we have dogs that fit into the circumstances they are bred for,and that they go to those places.It shouldn't be a case of "putting them away when not in use",but breeding and choosing dogs who are not a nuisance. There are good reasons to crate,for some they are excuses and it is open to abuse.

Not sure just how it works,but maybe thats why there is as much variation in dingos now (colour,white spots etc.) Further changes apart from shortening of muzzle etc. that occurs with domestication likely depends on continued selection for the tamest? I heard that the inuit people used to breed their sled dogs back to wolves every 4th/6th generation.If true,would mean the original sled dogs had a very high proportion of wolf. The degree of domestication looked for in the experiments on domestication of wolves wasn't clear to me from the Doco. I watched. The experience of the cubs handlers in wolf pack structure and comunication would also have a bearing on results I think?

In the case of the silver foxes,they were selecting for "tameness".It wasn't some thing that happened on its own, the changes that occured in ears,colouring etc seem to be a product of the "tame" gene. Being nerdly,I think there are differences in European wolves to North American.Were the experiments on domesticating wolves done with both I wonder? Perhaps wolves sourced from North America,who had been living near native ("Indian")populations would have have a slightly more positive out come? Native Americans didn't persecute the wolves,but appreciated them for keeping the herds they depended on healthy. In comparing Dingos to wolves in a domestic setting,I think the silver fox experiment also shows how quickly what we do affects genetics. European wolves have been persecuted for centuries,effectively culling any "domestic gene" . North American wolves have also been perscuted,but for far less time.When I was a kid there was still a lot of people who could pass on 1st hand knowledge.

Ahhh,Progress. There was only one disease to be aware of when I was involved,testing recommended if using certain lines. Few in my breed as yet,unless colour related Ie Lethal white overo and testing not mandatory.Its still assumed people know what they are doing.

I don't mind a reference to Gumtree if its some thing of note and some purpose behind it ie the dingo pups, but idiot alerts are not note worthy.We all know they are there are plenty of those.

My sister had a dingo cross GSD years ago,lived in the inner city of sydney,often with a tiny yard but Sophie coped well.I looked after her when my sister was away on our country property and there she was a handfull,but not as bad as some dogs.She wanted to chase the live stock,but never wandered and it was more curiosity than prey driving her. She was a very very intelligent dog though,and very active in seeking stimulation.My sisters flat mates were driven to distraction at times.They always said she was much better behaved whwen she returned from my place because my sister had no idea of training.I watched her trying to get S's attention when she was on the phone.When nothing worked she stood over the rubbish bin untill my sister looked her way,THEN grabbed a mouthfull of rubbish and ran. :laugh: Chronic bench surfer.S put yucky stuff ther for her to take hoping she would get the message(chillis in meat I think)but she just looked at S and went for more. Very friendly girl,but with guarding insticts too if she thought someone was threatening my sister. Sophie liveed a long life with my sister long after she was married with children and adapted well to the changes. A very strange looking girl.She had the body of a pure GSD but much bigger! topped with the head of a pure dingo :D My family also had wolf/GSD hybrid pups when I was 4yrs old,but no idea how they turned out,I was way too young.I do remember they were all grey with no shep markings ,just a couple had small white bits on toes or chest and 1 black pup. Hillbilly days.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out. This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses. Yep,I think the trend started with the Arabs,both egyptian and Polish lines.Along with the notion that line breeding should be viewed as the norm rather than an exception,used to "capture" unique type and traits not easily available otherwise. I've not been involved with the arabs for years now,but 30 years ago,the trend was well underway. Interesting to think horses might soon be in the same position as dogs,with health tests needed before breeding.

Agree with the above post. M-Sass, I have witnessed a dog attack on a child.The dog went for the throat.Jumped up and place his paws on the childs shoulders and preceeded to bite the neck.The child (10 yrs old) put her hands on the dogs shoulders to hold him back and he kept biting anywhere he could reach- shoulders,wrists,upper arms,breasts.The attack only stopped when I got my own dog to get the attacker. There was no warning and I am confident in saying that.There was no growling or noise even while the attack was happening. Guess the breed? This was a pedigree,with papers G.R. Police and military are using mostly Mals these days for several reasons.Temperament and trainability of pedigree dogs in many of the traditionaly used breeds is LESS PREDICTABLE and reliable than it once was when these dogs were being bred for work first,by people with a working knowledge of those breeds.A working knowledge of the breed(s) is no longer seen as a requirement to breed good dogs,so long as they can win a few shows and have good conformation.The traits that made those breeds great at their jobs is no longer a priority and health issues have also impacted in a big way. Malinoise have so far avoided most of those issues.They're not yet widely accepted or popular with the public as companion animals.Their breeding is more task specific ATM.Prey drive plays a very big part in that and is encouraged because it is a very effecient training tool.Training now is more standardised practice than it once was and efficiency and standarisation is apreciated when fewer people have that working background to begin with.High prey drive allows for that.(but I.M.O doesn't do much for more traditional breeds that were developed before training in prey drive became standard expectation) I.M.O more problems are created by people with no working knowledge of dogs,let alone individual breeds and their specialities,deciding they can read a breed standard so are qualified to breed.Pedigree or not. Edited to add: With working knowledge,even cross breds have a definite place.The assumed predictability of pure breeds allows for cross breeds to be bred for specific purposes and situations that might not be catered for in pedigree dogs.Anyone who still depends on dogs in an every day,varied or unusual working capacity can tell you.Some of us do.To have some one with no knowledge of us,our needs or abilities telling us ANKC reg. dogs will solve all problems is IMO showing ignorance of basic issues.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals. We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only. It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

No harm either way as long as XYZ and ABC are being bred covering all of the other bases as well. Its only when you get someone breeding for XYZ that hasnt covered the rest of the alphabet. Nope, No harm catering to popularity while its backed by independent understanding of your breed as well,but not a sound basis on its own for improvement.

Betterment of breed might mean having the courage of conviction to persist against popular opinion. A breeder should be aiming for sound understanding of what they are trying to achieve and independent opinion IMO. Breeding miniature horses I think they illustrate that when we get people saying "I like XYZ, but every one wants ABC so I must produce that" Due to popularity,ABC is very hard to come by so those used in breeding programs aften have nothing else to offer but ABC colour pattern.A whole lot of horses are then bred with nothing to offer the gene poole other than a temporary fad colour pattern. By the time this potential breeder has their XYZ and is producing,the fad has moved on,maybe to what the person originaly said they prefer.

Being honest in your assesment of your breed as a whole,and especialy your own dogs.They aren't perfect,so what can be worked on? Recognise that perfection may be unattainable and subjective,but as a breeder, should be the goal anyway.Regardless of current trends and "Fashion". Understanding your breed and the problems or "imperfections" that come with it,and striving to eliminate them in your lines,with out introducing a new set of problems. This is my interpretation.

I have a 14 yr old Dobie who doesn't do much of anything these days and will be given her wings soon. So many fond memories! She was raised as part of the family with my kids,now all grown. Seeing her sitting in the lounge watching puppet shows the kids would put on for her.(then stealing the puppets to play with herself ) Kids ignoring her efforts to play with the squeaky toy,so would hold it up against their ears and squeak it. Kids getting into "her" bed so would cover them with her blanket. The "Demos" we would do before teen partys just to be sure the kids recognised she was a guardian breed so not to take liberties( Tell her to "get" my son,who would be on the other side of the kitchen table.She would be growling and barking,chasing him 'round and 'round the table looking quite fierce till some one piped up and said"Oh! what will she do if she gets him" He would stop and the kids saw that she just poked him to try and get him to run some more. The games of hide and seek,standing by my side grumbling at the kids if they did'nt stop what they'd been told.Trying to answer the ringing phone,Her "Oh No!" she came out with one day when we arrived home and said "no bone today". Her controll in very rough and tumble games. she was allowed to grab clothing when it was old enough to not matter and it was funny watching the youngest try to keep his pants on. The boy running with Lou after him,he runs behind a chair in the corner and pulls it after him to block her and says,"HaHa,You can't get me!" and for the first time ever,she leaps on to the chair and launches herself over.Got him! Lou is all fond memories.She has been one of those perfect dogs.

I don't think you can state 1 age is best for all dogs/homes. A lot depends on the home,the purpose of the dog,the breed,conditions at the breeders etc. 8 weeks seems a good minimum age for most,but of the best dogs I have ever owned,most were brought home at 6 weeks and I would do it again gladly,provided I was sure of the lines and able to assess the pup for myself.I have found at that age,the pups can learn basic house rules,toileting etc very very quickly,often with never an accident and have been much more in tune with their handlers,very confident around people,in new situations and willing to listen.In all cases these dogs were still raised with other dogs so didn't miss out on that part of their education but I feel it was enhanced along with the dogs ability to "read" people and situations. Assesment is much more difficult at that age though the basic personality is there to see,it hasn't been tempered so much by litter mates and mum. In very large litters,where mum is no longer feeding pups or they are spending long periods kenneled,I feel earlier homing can be the better option provided the new owner is dog savey and able to give the pup plenty of attention and time. Not something I would advise for the average owner though,especialy these days.

They tell us dogs only act ot of self interest,and can't feel emotion. They aren't human,but they are capable of so much more than we give them credit for,or oportunity for. In his shoes,I doubt I would feel more like living now.

Great news Erny I will keep my my fingers crossed that its a long term solution.That would be awsome! Horribly frustrating and upsetting dealing with allergies and would very hard for you with so many reactors. I take my hat off to you! Going to get some calendula for my husbands allergies to test the tea on him.Its like 3rd degree burns for him and dealing with allergies in a human is hard enough for me.Your determination to beat this has my admiration too.

Erny, If you can't find horse in your area let me know and i'll see what I can do here. The "doggers" turn up at every horse sale,so shouldn't be too hard to track down a local source through the yards.

Horse meat at least you should be able to find close to home.

Whoa! Thanks for that.Up to you Erny, Do I persist with enquiries?

I believe horse meat is pretty clean generaly. I'm a horse person myself,but figure it makes practical sense so long as its done humanely. I've known of horse people who've sold to dog people doing their own butchering,just because they know that person will do it with respect. I get the impression its a fairly wide spread practice.

When theres so much need for caution I wouldn't want to push the goat either. I'm sorry I can't say where you could try for camel,but I suspect where you can get horse would be a good start.Now where to find horse.:laugh: You might have to track them down through the sale yards unless your dog contact is still around.Abatoirs might be able to steer you right. I heard mention of a place in sydney that supplied it.I can see if I can confirm it if thats any help?

Wow,that sure sure makes things dificult! Whats quinoa? Just wondering if you have access to goat or camel and how he might go with either of them.