mita

Thanks for the video link & the still pics, gurmpette & Erny. Maybe the rally was a first in a very much needed campaign? I agree with Law. It must've been a great experience to be out there with like-minded people.

Sandra, I agree with you that most people have no idea where to find ethical registered breeders. They don't know the difference between 'breeder' and 'registered breeder'. And many who know that a 'registered breeder' has something to do with 'showing dogs', then mistakenly think they will only sell their dogs to other show people & not as pets. So I'd support your belief that it's a good thing to get links to ethical registered breeders out in places where people generally look for pets. It's an excellent opportunity to explain to people who then make enquiries, what are the ethical guidelines that registered breeders follow. And why that has benefits all round.....the welfare of the dogs, the best interests of adopters and the satisfaction of good breeders who've developed their breed well.....& screen for the best match of a good home. I'd also like to see more PR by breed clubs as that's another excellent route for prospective pet buyers. Many breed clubs have a 'Puppy' (Mature Dogs, too) officer. In the meantime, I've found the Dogzonine Breed Community Pages great for directing puppy/mature dog buyers to....for my breed of choice. Many happy customers! Why not advertise this service in places where pet buyers go, too?

Welcome, RDD! I hope you enjoy your time on DOL. Such a coincidence about your question re a 2nd dog. Only yesterday, I had a visit from a friend who adopted a 2nd dog a few weeks ago....after a huge amount of thought. The first & only dog was a beautiful boy, but he could get very anxious & defensive around other dogs. He was a lovely house dog, tho, & very protective and watchful over his family.. When he came to visit a while back, his body language was anxious in high alert. He really couldn't relax. A dog behaviourist suggested that just the right kind of 2nd dog would help him. His owner agreed....a 2nd dog that would take some of those feelings of having to be responsible all the time, off him. Well, after great thought, a female dog of the same breed was adopted from a registered breeder. She was known for her rock-solid confidence, loving nature and being cruisy in the face of everyone & everything. I saw the 2 of them together yesterday. After only a few weeks of 'bonding', I couldn't believe the difference in the male dog. All the anxious body language had drained away & there was no constant alert defensiveness. He obvously adores his new 'sister' & has actually taken on a lot of her confidence & cruisiness. And the new 'sister' was thoroughly enjoying being loved by all in her new forever home. The trick here was not just getting a second dog, but working to get the right match between the 2. Best wishes if you go the same route!

Christina, you're not wrong! FD's comments are going in the opposite direction of the evidence re managing dogs for safety. Like, the US Veterinary Association set up a task force to examine the question & their conclusions included not going down Breed Labelling Tells All track. He's putting so many breeds at risk of being seen to be more suspect & so, more dump-able and less rescue-able. His 'don't buy' call, goes so much further!

I think this might be called having teeth. All dogs are genetically constructed to have teeth, it helps them do simple survival things like eat, now that the population of wild kibble is so much diminished ... This teeth stuff reminds me of the verse from the funny old song, Big Rock Candy Mountain. In the Big Rock Candy Mountains all the cops have wooden legs And the bulldogs all have rubber teeth, and the hens lay soft boiled eggs.

I rest my case re the Tibetan Mastiff. They are quite popular in Europe. As I scrolled thro' the European Kennels, the notes stuck out how they socialised their TMs & many lived as part of the family. That's TM's great historical strength. They bonded to all in the family....big, small, human & other animals. Here's proof pics from one TM Kennels. Pups raised indoors with children in the family....& even a face to face with the family puss. This is exactly the upbringing we'd want for any dog of any breed. http://www.himaldog.com/ What FD should have said is for prospective puppy buyers, of any breed, to go to experienced registered breeders who follow that same practice. Who know their breed's nature well, but who specially socialise the puppies from birth. While continuing to allow their adult dogs to live a well-socialised life, too. It's in that context that puppy buyers can get realistic expectations of a breed's needs. And if it'd fit their lifestyle. But also know that should they come to adopt a puppy, it will have been socialised from birth, along with parents.

Nicely said that he's a likeable person who seems to be taking criticisms without going ballistic. And he makes a fair comment in his FB reply that his interest is to avoid dogs getting into homes where there's not a match. But his comments do seem to imply that breed label is all explanatory....& if you avoid the ones he's listed....well, things will go well. The evidence , tho', continues to be how dogs are bred and raised links with how they'll tend to respond to humans & the world around them. And that applies to all dogs. His position, tho', rather sets up stereotypes. As I said before, I can't see why he'd single out Tibetan Mastiffs as a 'don't buy' dog, any more than you'd list a GSD as a blanket 'don't buy' dog. My tibetan spaniel was brought up by her breeder in a great little family of her breed....with a Tibetan Mastiff happily living with all of them. In fact, the TM history is one of being caring of whoever & whatever is in the family. Training & management required the same as for any dog.

Oh, Farmer Dave, you shouldn't have.... Put Tibetan Mastiff on your list. (Nor anything else). Tibetan Mastiffs were used traditionally, & currently, in Tibet as child minders. They have a strong tendency to regard all they live with....adults, children, babies, small dogs & cats...as their family. I'll contact him with the suggestion to take a trip to Tibet. Or he can hear how a Qld breeder's tiny tibbie pup of 6 months took off at a dog show. And was later found sitting, happy & safe, between the front legs of a Tibetan Mastiff.

Tarope, I'm so sorry for your loss. Tara was a beautiful name for a truly beautiful girl.

I saw the footage, too. The meercats are so cute. The senior doctor who was being interviewed was as enthusiastic as a big kid himself! It was delightful.

My pet dogs have come from a registered breeder, who showed them to title, let them have a litter....& then carefully rehomed them, only to someone she knew & trusted. Not all her dogs are rehomed, but some are, like the ones that've come to me. I approve of this as one option. And I approve of how this breeder treats her dogs. She doesn't have a large number which means they enjoy many of the same lifestyle activities of average pet dogs. Time in the house, time going out with her to do some pet therapy at a nursing home, time playing with granchildren, time travelling in a car.....the list goes on. No wonder her dogs slotted in so easily to living here with us. When people praise their good social behaviours, I say they came like that, from a registered breeder. She has a loving, personalised attitude towards her dogs. In all the years I've known her....& have spoken to her.....she's never referred to her dogs by anything else than their call name. And she continues to refer to our dogs as 'my girls'....& I'm delighted she does, because that's how she raised them. We've got the advantage from that. And the little dogs have benefitted by having a show career where they helped develop their breed, being raised & socialised well & then having their own pet home. She doesn't part with them, without emotion. There's always tears at Canberra airport as the plane heads for Q'ld. And I should add, I've had to force her to take money..... & a damn good sum, too, that she deserves. She wanted only the best of pet homes for them for the rest of their lives. 'Naughty girl!' is her response when a cheque arrives.

Just going by that newspaper article, it seems they've switched focus from hunting breeds down, to putting irresponsible owners on the spot. Which could even be jail. And responsible owners are being recognised....those who train, contain and generally manage their dogs. The statement that these people & their dogs won't be unfairly targeted is hopeful.

SG. it needs to be rephrased that people are against commercial dog breeding enterprises because they don't allow for THE most significant welfare need of companion dogs...socialisation. And there's evidence that commercial size operations don't & can't do it.....given their numbers & lack of commitment to it. Just as I'd be against any kind of dog breeding enterprise, big or small, registered or unregistered, that also didn't do it. All these are maintaining unsocialized dogs & selling their unsocialized offspring. In both big & small numbers. Big numbers create a flood of welfare problems. This link you've given doesn't spell out any specific commitment to socialising dogs & puppies. But it makes a claim that their dogs have been picked up for pet therapy & companions for autistic children. Those claims would just need to be checked out. Who knows how this place is run? http://www.topdogretrievers.com/About_our_Dogs.html All that has to be applied is the socialisation test.....after clean & humane conditions and knowledge base of the breeder. I have no idea how many dogs, Jed (who used to be on DOL) had. But after the dreadful fire at her place, her dogs were taken on the night into the care of the RSPCA Qld. Their public comment about the dogs? How beautifully socialised these dogs were. It was even evident on the news footage. Her lovely dogs, in the middle of a terrifying event, beaming in the arms of the RSPCA officers.....strangers to them. Recently the same in NSW. A tibbie breeder's house was burned down, his wife died. I have no idea how many dogs he had, either. But he was like Jed....his dogs were beautifully socialised. They, too, were taken to the RSPCA for 2 weeks. Now in fostercare with the club, some of these dogs were independently tested for suitability as pet therapy companion dogs. They passed with flying colours. Same as for Jed's dogs, the comment was made how well they'd dealt with horrendous events. And the base for that? Socialisation by those breeders...both of parent dogs & puppies.

The UQ research has already shown that registered breeders tend to provide better socialisation of their dogs & puppies. The study concludes that puppies from that source will be less likely to have the kinds of problems that get them dumped later on.

The study showed that lack of socialisation in the large, clean, law-abiding commercial breeding places, caused on-going psychological problems for dogs who then went to live in pet homes. Just the same as for dogs going on to pet homes from the filthy, inhumane places. Which means neither place has a leg to stand on, in terms of that critical welfare need.....socialisation. Especially as there is evidence that puppies do less well in terms of behaviours if the mother dog is not socialised. Seems like unsocialised breeding stock is all that exists in both the clean and filthy large breeding establisments. Not much chance for their puppies to have models: Anecdotal evidence has long suggested that lacking normal human contact and living with the pain and discomfort that are systemic in puppy mills leave these dogs with post-trauma-like behaviors. This is the first large study comparing mill survivors to dogs raised in homes. The study compared owner-reported psychological and behavioral characteristics of 1,169 former breeding dogs recovered from puppy mills with those of 332 pet dogs without the mill history. The dogs from puppy mills showed significantly elevated levels of fears and phobias, compulsive and repetitive behaviors, and heightened sensitivity to being touched. "The most prominent difference was in the level of fear," says McMillan. "Compared to normal pet dogs, the chance of scoring in the highest ranges for fear was six to eight times higher in the recovered puppy-mill dogs." The behavioral differences within that group existed whether they came from filthy, inhumane puppy farms or from cleaner, law-abiding large commercial breeding operations that have sought to separate themselves from the more unsavory breeders, McMillan says.

RSPCA Qld has anecdotal evidence spanning years of seizing puppies & dogs from the horrific 'establishments' that have turned up in Qld. They found, early on, that these animals had ongoing psychological troubles that were less open to being 'fixed' than physical problems. Which is why they were stressing the need for socialisation.....parent dogs & well as puppies....way, way back. I know a case of a tibbie rescued as a puppy from one of the worst, up north. She was rehomed by the RSPCA with a wonderful pet family & is mature age now. She has never, ever changed from being made terribly anxious to the point of panic, by anything new I don't know if there's any scientifically organised studies. But I do know that there's been studies which show that puppies are more likely to have problems like aggression, if the mother dog is not socialised. Looks like 'mum as model' starts from the very beginning with puppies.

Well said. And every bit of current science & people's actual experience would back what you've said. This is what we should be promoting to the pet public.

A fair point in that 'puppy farming' is a technique of breeding dogs for profit...AND not covering the full list of welfare requirements which now, based on good science, must also include socialisation. Obviously, the risk increases with numbers of dogs held. Because in order to meet all those welfare needs, there needs to be time on task by humans in meeting those needs. But it's a fair point that even a backyard breeder with a handful of dogs can be equally as negligent in attending to those needs. It's a case of greater risk with increased size & greater number of poorly bred and socialised dogs produced. Which is why I prefer to describe the behaviour, rather than the place. What's needed is a reasonable size of an establishment, based on some assessment of human time that can meet the full gamut of welfare needs. Attention needs to go towards working out a formula. There already exists a framework for breeding in which the full gamut of welfare needs has been met.....& most of all, socialisation has been included. The UQ research into registered & unregistered breeders in Qld, came out with strong results for registered breeders as tending to socialise their dogs better & to control their numbers of litters more. (Doesn't mean all, means statistically significant number of registered breeders, do) That kind of research should be unpicked to see what already exists & which serves dogs' welfare best. What is critical is that unregistered breeders were at greater risk for not stepping up to the plate. Yet, the typcial 'puppy farming' set up.....& the large commercial establishment....are usually run by unregistered breeders. One look at the ethical guidelines set down by Dogs Qld, would indicate that, at least, the registered breeders have gold standard ideals in place. The 'puppy farming' places & the large commercial establishments have nothing to match this. No wonder that the research found there were a goodly number of registered breeders already following these guidelines & doing a good job re dog welfare. As well as valuing & developing their pure breeds.

Thanks for posting this, Corvus. Yes, there's been anecdotal evidence about this issue for a long time. RSPCA Qld commented some years back that their experience was that the psychological & social impacts on puppy-'farmed' dogs could be life-long & crippling. And there's been studies which have shown that the development of aggression in dogs can begin with lack of socialization in the mother dogs. Yet, socialisation of mother dogs doesn't get any attention in 'puppy-farming'-type facilities. Which would back up what schnauzer's said. So it's good to see this kind of robustly arrived at data becoming available. It emphasizes how raising puppies to be companion dogs can only be achieved within a welfare model... that puts a high premium on socialisation of resident dogs and puppies. As well as applying technical knowledge in making decisions on what dogs to breed with, for health & temperament outcomes. I agree with dogmad that there's currently enough information on what constitutes dog welfare to question large-scale puppy-producing establishments. And also how any puppies/dogs are bred and raised.

That is so sad. He'll be a great loss to his family, friends and the kelpie breed.

Good to see people taking action. That was a weak reason they gave for not calling tenders. 'Extenuating circumstances'.

I get what you're saying Mita, but a point that I think should remain to the forefront of everyone's minds is that we are doing this for the COMMUNITY. The default result we aim for is that, with a better system/law, it will be better for not only the community as a whole, but also for the responsible dog-owners and the dogs themselves. Yes, amazingly that's where dogs live, alongside people within communities. If I remember correctly, that was also the outcome of the US Vet Association's Task Force looking at dog safety. They also concluded it was a community issue....& for any useful, long-term advances, there had to be community involvement not moves confined only to dog owners & their dogs.

Ditto, from me, too. At the risk of repeating myself, it is so great to see something proactive being done for dogs. Not something just reactionary. The science is there about dogs, their management and relationships with humans. This rally's on the ball.

I wish I had 100 thumbs to give the thumbs up for the intention and content of this rally. There is so much science to support the welfare aims that would help make the community safer. And this rally is picking up that fact. Congratulations to all involved.