mita

That's actually a good question, huski. It's more self-regulated at the moment as at least one group has set themselves up as an association of dog trainers. There's also the term animal/dog 'behaviorist' which seems to be used by people with academic qualifications in animal/dog behaviour. They appear to target problem-challenging behaviours by explaining them via some base from the scientific literature. But, then, so do some people who'd describe themselves as 'dog trainers'. While others just keep to 'good pet manners' -training with dogs that are across the average range & wisely refer on the problem-challenging dogs.

Tibetan Spaniel. Lovely little Buddhist dogs bred to be companions to monks in Tibetan monasteries, so they're still good in-home companions today. Here's a couple at their prayers. Not really, someone's offering a treat. http://www.dolforums.com.au/uploads/monthly_08_2011/post-3304-0-50923700-1312870069_thumb.jpg

The options don't include a person on the other end of a lead that's attached to the prong collar. And who is in charge of what happens to a dog that's wearing the collar. I'm with The Spotted Devil that it's the dog's perceptions that count. Given the state of present knowledge & being open to any further evidence, I agree with the Australian Veterinary Association. My vote is restricted use. Based on who that person is at the end of the lead & what qualifications they have in instructing and monitoring use. In the meantime, I'm hoping for some decent scientific studies, too.

Our small mixed breed dog lived until just short of 23 yrs. In appearance, she looked like a cross between a poodle & a tibbie. But she could well have been just from a long line of mixed breeds. Her name was Tessa & when she got to 13 yrs we thought she was old. We started to call her 'Grandma' & 'Gran', for fun. Little did we know the nickname would stick as she'd live for nearly 10 yrs more. Soon, she'd only answer to Gran or Grandma. I had to phone the Council & ask for her name to be changed on her dog registration....because she hadn't a clue who 'Tessa' was, any more.

Absolutely. Also helps a new dog bond with the resident dog. As well as the other activities others have mentioned.

It seems from what I read on the Vet Association website, that that's why they want for all the major behaviour changing collars that 'work' by having a very unpleasant effect. Vet supervision or qualified trainers. But it's interesting that they single out shock collars as their example The dogs 'needing' the prong collars are being described in this thread as pretty full-on, failed other means....and because of that, few in number. Seems to argue for restricted use, just in my opinion. The Vet Association is also leaving the window open for further changes in their policy because hard evidence is not in.

Er....check by a vet monitors that something capable of having a harmful effect, is not doing so with a particular dog. I agree with the Veterinary Association on that one. Change 'retailers' to 'qualified trainers' in your last sentence & that's presently fine with me. The fact that they've had to attain some 'qualifications' ensures some measure of competency.

Good question, given there's presently no mandatory restriction on who can use them, with what dog & how. Neither is there veterinary monitoring.

Yes, megan. And I'd only add, mandatory vet 'sign on'' & check. That is, if restriction is favoured over banning, according to present evidence. There may well be other evidence I haven't come across yet which could favour banning. Also open-mind to future change in any restriction policy, if long-term effects come up, as adverse or not.

Research had an interesting start. There's an Australian Pet Dog Training group, which totally rejects the use of prong collars (among other things). http://www.apdt.com.au/about-us/code-of-ethics.html Linking to the Australian Veterinary Association, their disquiet centred on shock collars. But they indicate that their positions rest with any evidence that can be forthcoming about long-term negative effects of such collars on dogs ( true to their base in science). Interestingly, they don't mention prong collars, by name, but refer to collars that have an unpleasant effect. Not surprisingly they opt for such behviour-controlling collars to be used under the supervision of a vet or suitably qualified trainer. So far, I'd think there ought be no open-slather use, at present...so, at the very least, restriction.

If, as someone's said, that the prong collars are a last-ditch strategy for some few dogs, then that's suggesting there shouldn't be open- slather use. Also....if so....then the emphasis should be on criteria for use (which would include 'by whom'). In the meantime, I need to know more about both sides of the case & will do some searching. Rightly or wrongly, it's good to see some folk stepping past the the threat in the 'hysteria' label to indicate they don't agree with the collars. Also good to see someone posting a personal experience re a dog in danger of PTS ...which changed their mind.

Maybe he's optimistic about having a good time. Is this where the study derives from? http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/teaching_learning/surveys/bias_dogs.shtml Seems there's been some work done on the topic at Bristol University in the UK. Interesting. I'd never heard the terms 'optimism' or 'pessimism' being used with dogs. http://www.livesofanimals.org/2011/03/03/optimism-and-pessimism-in-dogs/

Dee lee, I also think you've done heaps of people a favour. I hope your goldie's OK. SK, I can't get over the bloke being more worried about your language, than his 2 dogs snarling & rushing you. Very strange set of priorities he has. Whatever happened to being mortified because your dogs were scaring someone witless...in a public place?

I didn't ask what does he do.....because he's not here to answer. Which is bleeding obvious. I asked the question....how can he provide for socialisation with 84 dogs? Given what socialisation is, how can it be done with 84 dogs. Would you like to tell me how it could be done? I've also said socialisation is relevant whatever the number of dogs....from 1 upwards. I have enough reservations to make a decision.. I head for registered breeders who have smaller numbers of dogs and who socialise their dogs well. And who have the double aims of socialisation and show standard quality. The results are presently at my feet.

You have added 'training' to the mix, as in management because of behavioral tendencies & needs. Socialisation simply means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles. Nothing more, nothing less. Applies to all dogs, if they are to become well-socialised. In that respect, the military puppies are raised to do exactly that. Bred from mothers who've been well socialised themselves, handled well by humans from birth & introduced to a safe but 'regular environment with all its 'strangers', sights & sounds & early challenges like steps & stairs. There's a critical window period for that socialisation which is learning that is literally hard-wired into the developing brain. I've quoted the UQ research on that point many times on DOL. Around 13 or 14 weeks, the puppies are sent out to be fostered by ordinary people in ordinary homes, and share all aspects of a dog's life with them (including being left home alone while they go to work & school). A co-ordinator advises on basic 'good manners' learning.....which all dogs need. After the fostering months, the puppies are returned to the Dog Unit to begin the training-management specific for their military service. But they take with them, ease with being alongside humans and confidence in fronting the environment. Socialisation's been hard-wired, thanks to learning at the critical develpmental stages. Incidentally, the dogs I've got as adults from registered breeders, have been raised according to the same principles. It's why I went to those breeders & why I direct others to them. Back to the OP. My question was how would the bloke with the 84 dogs manage to do the same. And remains the same. (By the way, the same critical learning applies to human infants. Without socialisation being hardwired at that critical developmental stage, later adjustment in wider contexts can be problematic. )

Obviously, nothing. You seem to believe that socialisation & being winners in the showring are incompatible. I own purebred Aus Ch dogs from breeders who socialised them well. One all the way from Sweden. What more do I want? What I already have. I asked you what socialisation has to do with the quality of a brood bitches and the quality of their pups. I never said anything about the two being incompatable you did that. And I replied, obviously nothing. Because you don't see socialisation as relevant. Conclusion to be drawn...your measure of 'quality' is entirely showring-based. As there are registered breeders who set out to socialise their dogs well (& who are also successful in the showring), the two aims are not incompatible.

Tell me, how are those military dogs socialised? What is there about that socialisation which would not be the same for other breeds? There's a difference between 'expert' and 'expertise'. There's a body of knowledge, derived from research, about socialisation of dogs. Putting that into practice is 'expertise'/

Is it just me (totally besotted!)? But doesn't she get more & more beautiful! Even when she's asleep, her lovely soul shines out of her face.

Obviously, nothing. You seem to believe that socialisation & being winners in the showring are incompatible. I own purebred Aus Ch dogs from breeders who socialised them well. One all the way from Sweden. What more do I want? What I already have.

Another question. In following state-of-the-art knowledge, the dogs for military service are socialised in households & the accompanying lifestyles (whatever they happen to be). Why would that be so?

Look at my post & you'll see that I said socialisation was the key....however many dogs someone has. And, without socialisation, which prepares dogs to be companions alongside humans & their various lifestyles... breeding dogs is farming. 'Farming' puppies is producing a physical product. 'Raising' puppies is producing animals that will share humans' lives in some capacity, by way of stimulating hard-wired social learning in a variety of contexts. There's sound, rigorous scientific research on this point. By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'. The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier. My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

What about socialisation? If dogs are to be raised to be companion animals....& to produce puppies destined to be companion animals...socialisation is the key element. That statement is backed by research. How does someone provide socialisation for 84 dogs & whatever puppies they have? Without socialisation, it's farming (no matter how many dogs someone has & what physical care they get)). With socialisation, it's raising dogs/puppies to be companions around people. Small breeds are usually destined to be close companion dogs, which heightens the need for them to be raised in circumstances where both the puppies & the parent dogs are well socialised.

I was asked to let our Tibetan Spaniel girl be the 'small dog' tester for GAP. Which brought me & her up close & personal with greyhounds. These greys had come from good backgrounds in the racing industry & I saw the booklets detailing all their vet maintenance. We both finished up besotted with these lovely dogs. In fact, I asked GAP was it a problem that my small dog liked them too much. Answer was 'no', because she just had to be there & then go into a number of test walks, trots & runs, with the greys in different positions. The greys' natures were so even, sweet & sensible. There's a gentle but strong dignity that these dogs have which gladdens your heart. Yep....I'm raving! I'd go home & say, 'Well, I met the best one today!' Until next time, when I'd meet the best one....again. Only problem was that my Tibbie would get upset at the end of the test, when her new 'friend' would be put into another car to go home. Dogs are good judges of character! I can't recommend the GAP greyhounds too highly.

I may be going off topic, but I've always loved those posts where DOLers have come across a breed that was never for them (so they believed ). BUT that particular dog won them over. And now they're a 'converted' owner.

We grew up with a Cardigan Corgi as kids....Biddy. She was the most laid-back, versatile dog. She'd follow my mother around like a good housedog, one day....& the next she'd be out on my father's boat in Moreton Bay (with charter boat skippers yelling out as they passed....'Gidday, Biddy!'). Biddy truly was a dog for all occasions. But as an adult, we've had the working dog types, Border Collies & then Shelties. Intelligent, highly trainable (but someone should have told our Shelley the Sheltie that. ) While not keen on small dogs that I believed to be twittery & twirly, I still missed a small housedog. So I went to the RNA dog show to look at Papillons. But on the way, I bumped into a bunch of calm, self-possessed little dogs that looked me straight in the eye, as if to say, 'Would we like YOU?' I asked the breeders what they were. Tibetan Spaniels. Had never heard of them. But, since then, we haven't owned any other breed. Here's a pic of Angel, one of the Tibetan Spaniels that I first came across at the RNA Show all those years ago. She won Best of Breed. Little did I know that 3 months later, I'd own her, as her breeder wanted to retire her to a good pet home. The pic shows why those Tibbies stopped me in my tracks. http://www.dolforums.com.au/uploads/monthly_07_2011/post-3304-0-45017900-1311918086_thumb.jpg