~Anne~

I think you are far too sensitive to what is written in these threads. You have jumped on one or two bits from my post and then decided they were aimed at you. And then this could make me think you are now being paranoid. I mean this in a nice way. Not every comment that everyone makes after you post a comment is referring to you or anything that you have written. Some threads may end up with a dozen or more sideline conversations. Most people tend to pick up only on certain points in a thread... which is what I did. Raz used snake bites as an example as that is what came to mind for her because she has experienced this scenario personally. I happen to have experienced exposure to dogs that have seizures due to being given drugs. Simple. No devious intentions. The idea of drugs being given to dogs and causing epilepsy shocked me senseless when I first became aware of it so it is something that sticks in mind. I can't imagine why you even think I was referring to anyone here giving their dogs drugs. Secondly, I was trying to give a wide variety of possible causes for epilepsy and so I used as many examples that came to my head to show how varied the causes for the condition are. Hopefully this can be put to bed now as it is causing the thread to go off topic. I am sorry that you feel my comments somehow maligned you but I also believe that you are creating a debate over nothing. The written word is not always easy to interpret. I suggest that before you jump next time you ask for clarification on the comments made.

diamonds2009...... I am at a total loss as to why you should take offence at anything I have said. Your response is puzzling. I was merely explaining a few possible and varied causes of seizures. I didn't want the OP to hastily decide that vaccinating the dog may have been the cause for the seizures. It is something that needs to be explored with her Vet. As for recreational drugs causing seizures, regardless of what you think, there are dogs that suffer from epilepsy due to humans getting them stoned and I in no way inferred that anyone here gave their dogs drugs.

Firstly, to clear up an obvious misconception that runs through this thread..... a good proportion of seizures that are experienced by both humans, cats and dogs have no 'known' cause. They may or may not be linked to disease, to vaccinations or to any forms of medication. Seizures can aso be brought on by dehydration, food allergies, and excitement. It is even thought that there may be a genetic link i.e they are born with the propensity to have siezures. Dogs being given recreational drugs that humans use can also cause epilepsy (ice, rock and marijuana in particular). Seizures are a complex thing and to try to wrap them up in one explanation is impossible. cobyandchris, if there isn't a pattern (which coincidently most don't follow a pattern) and the cause is not obvious then it is termed idiopathic epilepsy. The most common age for epilepsy to occur in dogs is 18 mths - 3 years. Your vet can perform tests, including checking for thyroid problems, which is a cause of epilepsy. Your vet can also refer you to a neurologist who will perform tests. Scans can also be done of the brain to rule out tumours and other diseases that affect this organ. If the seizures happen often then your vet will most likely begin your dog on a course of medication that he will remain on for life to control the seizures. If they happen only rarely then you are usually advised of what to do during seizure and your dog may be given valium when he has a seizure only. With summer here it is important that you keep your dog cool while he is experiencing his seizure. Your dog's body temp will rise rapidly during the seizure and it is important you keep him cool. I immediately turn the air con on as high as possible and keep ice packs at the ready for my dog who is also an epileptic. Good luck.

You'll never see an apology from me either quite frankly. It always takes two to tango.... some just tango better then others and some are better at giving the perception they are innocent. I wear my badge out front... I don't hide behind a halo. As for this forum. I very rarely venture in here and on the rare occassion I have the information given has been so off the ball park and delivered in such a way I may as well not have bothered. Perhaps I have posted at the wrong time, perhaps it is personal... either way it doens't bother me *shrugs* Thankfully for me I work with a breed that doesn't give me many issues. Don't kid yourself K9, you'll never stop posting here. The commercial benefit is far to big for you As for the dog in the other thread... with all the debating that went on the deal would have been done long before most of us got a little tired of the attitudes in the thread and jumped into it.

Yep.

This is the one that I couldn't think of earlier.

Ouchie... wouldn't that sting? I get a lot of mouth ulcers and use mouth washes all the tiime and they sting th eulcers so I'd imagine ti wouldn't feel pleasant on an inflamed area of skin????? I think I'll try the Curash powder. On SUnday, I discovered two hot spot on a rescue and a third starting. The two larger ones are healing well but I am using a cream (my addled brain can not locate the name of it for the meanwhile ) that I have always used and is supplied by my Vet. The third one that was just starting has already cleared. My Pugs get them off and on because of their thick hair and rolls around their necks.

I used ivermectin orally for 3 months on a Pug bitch with severe demoex and she was fine with it. I added it to her food. She was also washed intitally every second day with Pyohex and was also on antibiotics for secondary infections from her mange. We had no problems associated with her treatment at all. To see her now you would never believe what a mess she was. There is a thread in this forum with pics showing the drastic change in her during the treatment.

I wasn't aware of this actually but I have always fed him twice a day anyway and his meds are put in his food so I guess this is why she didn't say anything.

Could you ring them and discuss it first by phone? Most Vets will speak with you over the phone if you are not expecting a free consultation. Explain your concerns and what you want done.

We tweak Monte's constantly. Poor bugger had a focal the other week and then a tonic clonic on Sunday night. The unusual thing is he only had one? I drew up the valium and didn't end up using it. This has never happened before so I am a little wary about what will be next. He didn't seem to experience the full clonic side to it either and was up in half the time he normally would be. He was a little hyper for the first few minutes after it but calmed very quickly. I gave him a little jam on bread and then 30mg valium orally and he settled (sort of - he paced on and off) for the remainder for the night. Every time you think you have it down pat the rules are changed.

We started only on Pb but the seizures were not under control. So about 6 months later he was started on Kbr. Originally the Pb was halved when they added Kbr but, again, his seizures (clusters) continued so the Pb was upped again. Apart from a focal last week we are now 10-11 weeks seizure free and counting (touching wood).

Hi Staffy-lover, I didn't realise you got over to see Georgina. She's great isn't she! Personally I find the Kbr more of a problem than the Pb. Bromapex is only a branding name for the drug and the active ingredient is still Potassium Bromide. Erny, Staffy-lover - have you used only tablet forms or liquid of the Kbr? I have returned to the liquid as I find this is absorbed easier by his system and works more effectively. Have you ever found any difference in seizure activity and reactions in the different forms of Kbr?

There are a few of us on DOL that have dogs that suffer from epilepsy. I have a 4 year old Pug, Monte, who is an epilpetic and also suffers clusters. Monte has on average around 5 seizures within 60 minutes. I usually manage to get valium into him after the first seizure and this seems to slow him down. Monte is on Pb and Kbr and has been for more then 2 1/2 years. He started on Pb only but he was still having regular clusters of up to 10 and an obvious death sentence and so Kbr was introduced around 2 years ago. He currently has 45mg Pb twice a day and 175mg Kbr twice a day. Although he suffers ataxia, some lethargy and an increased appetite (amongst other things) but I would never consider ceasing his medication. It would be a death sentence for him to do this. Dogs that suffer from epilepsy, and in particular, cluster seizures have an increased chance of dying form the seizures. Cluster dogs have a much higher chance of going into status then other epis and valium will not always stop the clusters or prevent status even in dogs on both Pb and Kbr. The Pb will take up to 3 months to settle in her system. If her levels were not in therapeutic range then you will have the opportunity for movement and increase if she continues to have seizures. The addition of Kbr will increase the ataxia for some time and lethargy. She will also experience an increase in thirst. I can highly recommend a few websites and epi lists that may be of help to you if. My advice is to consult with your vet and continue with the Pb and, if needed, the introduction of Bromide. A third drug, known as Keppra, is also used but this has its limitations in dosage and is not commonly used in Australia. Without the drugs you may be risking the death of your dog. Edited to add: forget the valium suppositries. It is proven they are not as effective as injectable valium given anally.

I had a Weimaraner with pancreatitis. She was medicated for her entire (short) life as it was a chronic condition. She died from complications after bloat though so I am not sure how long she would have lived. She was always a very skinny and sick little dog until she was diagnosed but once she started treatment and her diet was altered she fattened up and was not in pain and was happy. Please let us know what happens with your Vet visit. Poor little thing has kept you on your toes with problems. *hugs* to both of you.

Woohooo and I am hanging on to wood here too for you!!! That is great that he has gone 2 months! And guess what - Monte is now 9 weeks and counting!!! Odd hey that both of them are changing their seizure cycles at the same time..... perhaps it is a weather thing after all???? As for the bloods - only bloods at this point. Fast before and no medication. We have always scheduled the tests for the time that he would normally be due for his meds. Is he showing symptoms of possible liver damage/probs? Neither the neuro or my normal Vet have said this is required yet with Monte as his levels have been fine to date and he hasn't shown any symptoms of liver damage.

Good dog!!! ;) That site contains some very misleading info actually. In particular this bit if advice: This is DANGEROUS. The dog could choke on anything placed in its mouth. The dog will not bite his tongue during a seizure. :shakehead: These are far better sites for future reference; Canine Epilepsy Guardian Angels Understanding Pet Epilepsy Canine Epilepsy

Wow, a quandry. If the dog isn't in pain then perhaps it is best to leave it on.... better the devil you know (particularly after reading steve's post). I can understand your concern though, 4 breaks is a lot of damage!

Actually 18 mths - 2 years is the most common age for it to develop and not all dogs have a change of character preceeding a seizure. Mine does, but that is only within a few minutes of the seizure. Varicool, there are many kinds of seizures and many reasons why a dog has seizures. If no cause can be found for the seizures it is called epilepsy. Certain diseases will cause a dog to have seizures such as cancer/tumours of and near the brain, hypoglycemia, some liver conditions, brain trauma such as a knock to the head or a lack of oxygen to the brain at anytime, excitement, stress and heat are just some of the causes where it can be pinpointed. Most have what is known as idiopathic epilpesy. Idiopathic meaning that there is no rhyme or reason for the seizures. Seizures can take many shapes. They range from grand mal seizures (or tonic clonic) to petite mal (or partial or focal). With a grand mal seizure the dog will drop to the side and usually stiffen while arching backwards, foam or drool, may have a bowel motion or urinate, paddle with his legs, and they lose all conciousness. They may also have facial twitches and make soounds. After all of this they will usually just lay there for while breathing heavily. These usually go on for sometime and take the dog a while to recover. With petite mals usually only one area of the brain is affected (as opposed to tonic clonic where all of the brain is affected) and depending on which part of the brain is affected it will affect different parts of the dog. Monte, my Pug, will sometimes start gaging and making choking sounds. He will stagger as if drunk or he can just stand still and stare while his face twitches. At other times he will curl to one side, drop to the ground, roll over and then get up and stagger around as if drunk for a few seconds. Then within literally a minute he is fine as if nothing happended. One very important thing to watch out for at this time of yera is the heat. When a dog has a seizure their body temp rises dramatically and they must be kept cool. The best thing to do (if you can) is to have a camcorder at the ready and film the episode to show the Vet if it happens again. A lot of mobiles have video capabilites these days and most digital cameras too. Have it somewhere you can grab it quickly. If it is epilepsy and your dog continues to have seizures then they will need to start medicating but make sure they rule out all other posibilites first.

But if the active ingredient is the same, only stronger (although I haven't had time to look through the material on this myself) then how could they release it there? I would imagine that this would contravene something? I would assume that the FDA would have to be niotified of their intention and if so, they would have final say????

Absolutely. It makes one wonder 'why' they are not allowing the focus on PH12. Thanks again.

Several things come to my attention in the links you have provided (thank you for these). The 'adversereactions' website claims the following: And then goes on to point out that the recall of Proheart is a class 1. This to me gives the impression this recall is serious stuff indeed. But then, when you go into the FDA website and look at the current recalls the FDA have, and there are many class 1 recalls, it appears it isn't so scary. Of the current class 1 recalls there are; "Mini Angel Food Pack" A class 1 recall because...... REASON SuperTarget & Archer Farms brand Mini Angel Food cakes purchased before August 05, 2006 contain an undeclared Dried Egg White ingredient. Serious stuff indeed I guess for those who may be allergic to egg white products but for the majority.... Or perhaps this class 1 recall; "Kroger Garden Blend Frozen Fresh Stir Fry Vegetables, Broccoli, Sugar Snap Peas, Green Beans, Carrots, Celery, Water Chestnuts, Onions, and Red Peppers." And the reason for this class 1 recall; REASON Product contains undeclared egg noodles (egg and wheat). To me, the examples above show that there is 'internet hysteria' being used in the debate. The second thing that occurs to me is that the most recent recalls (that were now 2 years ago) were on certain individual products of PH6 and not the entire range of the drug. They had issues with only certain batches. I will say howver that it is disconcerting that information regarding PH12 is very limited? Even a search of the FortDodge Australian website does not trun up anything of value and I would think with all of the contraversy surrounding the use of this product that they would have more information available. I am still absorbing the other information you supplied me and will comment later (work permitting). Thanks again for your links and info. It is all interesting reading but one thing that, to me at any rate, appears odd is that the focus for everyone is on PH6 which has never been available in Australia. As you know, we have Proheart12 and yet there appears to be limited information from both sides of the debate about this particular product.

Hmmmmm............ again.... the document doesn't give conclusive argument that Pro-heart 6 should not be used. After all of the presentations were made the question was asked: Based on the presentations and information provided is ProHeart 6® safe for use in dogs? Yes or No There were 7 experts who said 'Yes' it is safe to use and 8 who said 'no' it is not safe to use. It also states the following when qualifying the responses given; evelin - I have spent some time perusing the 'dogsadversereactions.com' site and can not find any link to the active ingredients of Proheart 6 or 12. Are you able to direct me? I need it to be a primary source.

Thanks for this. I'll certainly look into the links you have supplied.

If you are in a high risk area then and you feel uneasy about giving an annual injection perhaps a monthly preventative is a good alternative? I am not sure that a bi annual test is appropriate. If something goes awry with one test or you forget to have it done then you could open yourself up to problems. Remember, treating heartworm is a serious business and the possibility of permanent damage to the heart and other organs from the treatment and from the heartworm is quite high. On the other hand....... if you have never had any issues then why not continue with the way things are?