Aidan3

stonebridge, I'm not going to wear this. I didn't insinuate anything about you and made every effort to clear up your misconception. I disagreed with your premise, and this is a discussion forum. Not everyone will agree with you all the time. Do you seriously believe that anyone who doesn't agree with your every word must be an "instant expert", who makes "dumb-ass posts" and whose "knowledge is lacking"?

Are you serious? I'm one of the few who hasn't openly disagreed with your practice, only your premise. I attempted to clear up your misconception. Made it clear that I didn't want to make it personal. More than enough wasted effort for one day.

"...if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour" was what I wrote, you have highlighted it so presumably you read it? If that was the extent of your knowledge, then you would be making a terrible mistake. I didn't say it was the extent of your knowledge, and I wasn't even referring to you but to people who might read what you had read and think that alone was enough.

You've lost me, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote? Regardless of your interpretation of my post, that is a personal attack and not warranted nor appropriate. Yes, dogs should be taught to respect children. That is learned behaviour. If I must insinuate anything about your knowledge of dogs, it's that your premise is faulty. The most submissive (lowest in the pecking order) will resource guard from the highest, even tiny pups will do it. So if a child is higher in the pecking order, it won't prevent a tragedy. However, I would prefer that we didn't make it personal. I'm not interested in a pissing match and not everything is a contest to see who is higher in the pecking order I just don't agree with your premise, and I base this on scientific and anecdotal observations across species. If you are not bringing up your dogs to learn to respect your children

My dogs will do pretty much anything for my daughter, including giving her food, but it's definitely conditioned and nothing to do with pecking order. The main objection I would have to using terms like "pecking order" is that people might form unrealistic ideas about how risky their child's and dog's behaviour is based on their perception of pecking order. As PF has said, the lowest ranking wolves will resource guard from the highest ranking wolf. Puppies will resource guard, too. There doesn't seem to be a canid, wild or domestic, that gives a fig about how big or small or dominant or submissive they are when it comes to resource guarding. So if people believe that their two year old occupies a higher rung on the pecking order, and that this will prevent resource guarding, then they could be in for a tragic shock. Similarly, if people believe that it is a good idea to let their child handle their dog while eating because this will elevate their spot in the pecking order, they too could be in for a tragic shock if this is the extent of their knowledge of dog behaviour.

I didn't really understand that comment either. I would have thought the bigger issues were any financial incentive provided to pounds to move animals through faster and the psychological impact on veterinary students. These might legitimately be issues and I've not heard how they are being managed, only a lot of carry on from people who seem to have a bumper-sticker slogan understanding of veterinary training, animal welfare, and ethics. Some facts would be nice. No doubt they are there somewhere, under the piles of emotion.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/vet-stu...6-1225981328936

If you feed in an advantageous position every time, they quickly learn to anticipate where the food will appear and sit straighter. This usually means delivering the food with your hand slightly further out from your body (at first, even if it is a little exaggerated). The other thing is to get them as fast and responsive as possible before changing positions.

That's absolutely right. I just had 10 days off over Christmas and the furthest I got was Bunnings.

When you find out how to do that, I would like to know the formula to input for one of mine, so he can think of nice things about the cat. He's already thinking nice things about the cat, that's the problem!

:D How do you do that? Hypnosis? Subliminal cassettes played through speakers under their pillows as they sleep?

Apparently this thread has been discussed on another forum. I would like to point out (to anyone who looks here) that these dogs are being separated unless supervised, no-one has suggested we condition the dogs to "think of nice things" when they see each other, and no-one has suggested a Halti. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME

Being able to go to a crate or mat immediately, without hesitation, and learning that waiting there brings good things (food, attention, getting leashed up for a walk, meeting the visitors etc). Long downs are great, you can use a tether for these which makes thing much easier. Take a step away, if dog is still down, go back and reward with attention. Take two steps away etc etc If dog breaks at some point, ignore for a few seconds, then resume the exercise at "one step" again (as if to say "you seem confused, let me explain that again from the beginning"). As Sue Alexander describes it "I shouldn't be able to TRICK my dogs into getting up during this exercise". I can vaccuum around my GSD while she is in a long down.

There might be a number of reasons that don't rely in anthropomorphic interpretations. Maybe he has learned to 'sit' in response to correction, but the "no" is a cue? This is the avoidance learning equivalent of having to have food in your hand. The learning process can only rarely be illuminated with short bites of behaviour like this. We don't know what has happened before, or what comes next either.

Good finds, and yes Erny, that would be a fun job! "What do you do?" "I'm the guy who tickles the rats"

Apart from that, the premise also has a flaw. We cannot say that we have removed a dog's desire for rushing through a door or jumping a fence just because we have punished it. We have punished that behaviour, not the "desire" to do it. Big difference, especially when you are talking about dogs who can think up new ways of solving their problems, and especially in the context of dog aggression (this thread). One of my dogs was trained not to jump the veggie garden fence. The next time the ball rolled under it, she simply ripped the wire off it Is it? What if you lead a dog into a situation where it can't or doesn't know to pay attention to your cue and then you punish them for "ignoring" you? I've never known where to draw the line. If you choose to punish a dog, do it with reducing the unwanted behaviour in mind - not as some sort of anthropomorphic disciplinary action for an assumption you have made of a non-verbal animal.

I have one myself and she will take a sleeve, but it's just fun. Not many working-line dogs in Tassie.

People forget that, above all, it is about learning, not quadrants.

No, I only offer services in my area of competence. Have I missed something, are these security or protection trained dogs from working lines? I thought they were show dogs.

Who is taking a "she'll be right" attitude? Your experience seems to be limited to your own situation, and if you've got a handle on it then I applaud you for that, but that's not a very broad perspective and assumes a lot. Keeping in mind that this is an "internet diagnosis" (not a real one, and something that so far I have otherwise avoided), it appears that we have three normal dogs with no bite or serious fight history. How do we end up with all three dogs in muzzles and a cautious hand hovering over the remote with the stim turned up to 100?! That's doesn't sound like "calm, assertive leadership" to me, no wonder the dogs are anxious too. What happened to waiting politely for attention, long-downs in a group, recalling one dog at a time, manners around food bowls and all the stuff normal dogs are capable of without getting their knickers in a twist? Good manners, deference, learning how to get satisfaction without aggressive displays (that are almost certainly just displays, intended to avoid an actual confrontation)? Knowing that you aren't going to miss out. Knowing that the world doesn't end if another dog gets some attention. Knowing that your walk will come later. Not getting everyone too excited to think, having an "off switch", having self control despite whatever else is going on. Hardly "she'll be right", but not the other extreme either. Some dogs are abnormal. They need to be muzzled, or separated, or corrected. Sometimes they learn to be this way - something their owner did, something that happened by accident, or a bad mix in the "pack". Thankfully this is a fairly small percentage. If the OP has a dog or dogs like this then she needs a face-to-face consultation with someone able to make that call, not internet advice. Anxiety and aggression breed more anxiety and aggression. It starts from the top and trickles down. If the leader isn't confident, calm and in control - no-one else is either. Not the only way it happens, but a good way to accelerate an issue if one is brewing!

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour? Because the stuff of higher value to the dog than the reinforcers have provided cause the misbehaviour generally. We routinely work with "stuff of higher value" using only +R, it's only a problem if it's dangerous and fluency can't be achieved quickly enough.

Hopefully valium. Ace doesn't stop the anxiety.

If you have reinforced the good stuff to fluency, why would you have any misbehaviour?

As far as I know, these dogs are not fighting and I would hope that any behaviourist MissMaddy seeks out will be interested in keeping it that way. You seem to be discussing a hypothetical situation that does not accurately represent the issues relevant to this thread. Have these dogs fought? I use muzzles, but I won't use a muzzle to enable someone to continue putting their dog into situations that lead to the dog learning more unwanted behaviours. Biting stops when a muzzle on, but learning doesn't.