mini girl

Have a very large litter as already put on another thread and so far so good with my girl feeding and caring for the pups - all 10 miniature poodles. They are now 11 days old - well today one of my other girls got in with the pups - and when I found her the pups mother was inside the crate but down the far end just watching while the other girl had some of the pups actually on her nipples. The puppies mother has always been submissive to this girl and I don't want my mother dog upset in any way - the invading girl did not seem to want to hurt the pups in any way but now its got me a bit on edge - all our dogs live in the house and this has never happened to me before. The invading girl has had pups herself before and was an excellend mother and she has been very interested in the pups since born - wanted to sniff them etc when they were taken out of the pen and put in a basket while cleaning the pen or weighing the pups. We took her away and have tried to separate them but its not all that easy - has anyone else had this happen and is it a problem - one breeder friend told me she had a girl who actually went to another girls litter and killed some pups. The invader (for want of a better word) has been a bit sooky since the pups came along I think she feels a little left out but we have tried to give her lots of attention - but with the mother and 10 pups naturally they are getting more attention.

They make my blood run cold - and glad to know my fears are justified - and not just me being paranoid - there is no way now I will leave my litter unguarded in the yard now - we will certainly have to look into making it completely crow proof but maybe will just make the time for a couple of hours a day to sit and play with the pups in the run - hang the house work you don't have pups at home that long and Brisbane winters are beautiful.

My current litter is only a week and a half old but since my last litter we have found crows are now coming into our back yard - this is new to us never had crows around before. We live in Brisbane . Has anyone had any experiences with crows when you put your pups out in a run on the grass - I always have done this - not that I am far away while they are there but I remember hearing horror stories of crows attacking lambs etc. they are such big and powerful birds - do you think they may attack pups in a garden run. Anyone had experience with this? I may make a scare crow but do these work? Will add of course not planning to put them outside yet only wqhen old enough.

Yes a BIG litter - still getting my head around it - and totally agree in 4 weeks I will have my work cut out for me - probably less than 4 really as they are now just over a week old. But an update - all are gaining weight - most doubled their birth weight a couple a bit smaller but really strong little ones - keep giving those 2 extra time with mum. Mum is good and this morning at 5am was woken up with a face lick - she had finally decided she could leave them and come up for some time with her mummy - was so beautiful. She seems fine am giving her plenty to eat and divetalact drinks and cheese and also some calcium syrup twice a day to be sure - only thing she doesn't seem to want much water so I dilute the puppy milk and give her that - she does pant a little - not much - when feeding but I guess those little gums and paws may hurt a bit. I am watching her like a hawk - and she is spending a bit of time away from the box now but not too far - can you give them too much calcium - have read about it and most seem to say they just excrete the excess - but with such a large litter for a 10 klg dog I don't want the dreaded esclampsia to get her. Will start to suppliment if I think she can't cope but so far so good.

Thanks for that - only given one little bit so will hold off.

Thanks so much for all the advice - we are getting there and the pups are all over their birth weight now - they dropped a bit the first day after birth - they are 3 days old today - we are rotating a fair bit and weighing twice a day and giving the smaller ones a suppliment through the day and while up at night - just a couple of mils at a time - I am very scared to ever try tube feeding and just use an eye dropper. I was a little concerned for my girl last night she was panting quite a bit and also temp at 39.3 so to be safe we bundled her up and also the pups and took her to the vet - he did a very thorough check to make sure her calcium levels were fine and an x ray to see nothing retained and an ultrasound to check her tummy - all came up fine and the panting is going now - I know they do pant somewhat after a litter but I guess I am on tender hooks with this amazingly large litter. The vet did give her a calcium injection to be sure and also an antibiotic shot to make sure no infection. Will include some yukult in her milk for a couple of days. Hope all continues to go ok - will update how all is going.

One of my miniature poodles had 10 puppies this afternoon - this is the biggest litter I have ever had - but she went so well and all the pups look strong and healthy weights are between 156gr and 200gr. I have never had such a big litter before the most ever was 8 usually around 5, 6 or 7 but this girl is amazing. They were born between 2pm and 4.30 pm and now mum is settled in her box and we have divided them in two lots of 5 we took the five that seemed to be getting at the teats off about 30 minutes ago and put them in a basket with warming pad and towel over they are quiet and sleeping - mum ate a lot of the afterbirths and has had a big bowl of puppy milk and seems really good. How long do you rotate pups for - we always weigh them each day sometimes twice a day for a few days to see they are not going backwards - do you rotate continually or just a few times a day and let them all back with mum for some of the time? Any other hints with such a big litter for a small dog would be so much appreciated - I guess 10 is not so many more than 8 but it seems hugh and we hope to raise them all.

I have tiles too so from about 3 weeks after moved out of their whelping box I use flanelette sheets up one end of the pen for sleeping and in the middle use a rubber mat - bought from the Supercheap shop its rubber and used as a boot mat about $20 so I have 3 they are easy to hose clean - that is in the middle and down the other end newspaper for their toilet training - once they are used to using the newspaper for toilet and their little legs are strong I remove the rubber mat in the middle - and they walk down to the newspaper for toilet - the trick I find is to keep the newspaper quite close for the first couple of weeks moving it further away each day and mop up any wee that does not go onto the paper as quickly as possible so they have the smell only on the paper - its worth the extra trouble till they get to know - and then they usually always use the paper even when out of the pen and having a play. This is a link I found really helpful in training pups http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/breedingdogs/pottytrainingpuppies3weeks.htm

Heard from my friend this morning on email - had her girl checked and she is not having pups after all - her boy got to her at the very end of her cycle only once so all is well after all. She can now breath a sight of relief.

Talking to a breeder friend today from NSW - doing everything so right and I have so much respect for her - not been breeding and showing all that long but doing a wonderful job. Well one of her girls had an accidental mating and looks like she is in pup - this will make 3 litters 1n 18 months - she is quite worried about it - had the same thing happen to me once some time ago but wrote to the Qld CCC and they did register my litter with a warning letter. These things do seem to happen even to the best of us but do you think its worth her approaching the NSW CCC (Dogs NSW) are they like Qld and allow you one mistake? Anyone able to offer any advice.

I usually take the temp a few times a day when I think they are close - bought an ear themometer to help but was told by a vet that these are not acurate enough for this - she also told me that when taking the temp to hold the themometer either down or up in the behind as its possible for the result to be inaccuate is by chance it hits some poo - sounds a bit gross but I do follow this now - only problem is when the girls see the jar of vaseline and the themometer they want to get out of the way pronto - but I mostly see a drop followed after a bit of a peak.

I imported a boy from NZ a couple of years ago no quarantine necessary cost me about $1,500 I think from memory all up - Ring Dogtainers they can tell you all you need to know.

sorry mini girl - I posted in the "litters due in feb" thread. No success here. Puppies delivered dead by caesarean on due date. When I get pathology results back, will post about the whole experience. May be helpful for others. So very sorry this happened - was so hoping for a good outcome for your little girl and you - nothing can be said but I am thinking of you and try not to get too down about it - but its just not fair. Will be thinking of you.

To Jr Inoz Have been looking out for your post - hope your pups arrived safely and well. Love to hear if all ok

Congratulations - I have tears in my eyes reading your post - know how you feel - they look wonderful - and I am sure you will cope very well - so sad when one doesn't make it - so many have been through this but sometimes its just natures way. Good luck but I feel you will be great.

Good luck - the first is the hardest - you have been given some wonderful advice - stay calm and reassure your girl the whole way through - I keep my girls close to me day and night when I know pups are on the way - the temperature is also a good guide - also they often seem to want to go outside to the toilet when a pup is near - and may try and get under a bush or something - take her out if she really seems restless on a lead - one very early morning on a St Patricks day my girl who had been with me all night wanted a toilet break outside and I turned my head for a second and she was under a bush - I managed to get her out as a pup was being born and had him outside on the pavers - of course we called him Patrick and he still has that name. You won't forget your first litter.

I do this and it works fine - not a problem at all - my boy I have here knows exactly when the time is right - its far easier than locking them apart - and he calms down after a mating and is happy to have a snooze not too far away from the girl of the moment But the other thing I use when I am not letting my boy mate - is a belly band I have devised myself - it works so well - you put a disposable baby nappie inside so it never chafes him - of couse my dogs are not big dogs and I don't know how it would go if they were but so far when I don't want pups on goes the belly band with the trimmed nappie inside - they do have times when I do keep them apart though so he can have his nappie off - but do you know that little guy knows when he sees me with the nappie and he is as happy as a lark for me to put it on because he knows he can be with the girl. Also would not leave it to chance and go out and leave them alone with just the nappie on and hope all was well - but since I started using it has not let me down at all - the trick is the very strong wide industrial type velcrose I use with a towling band that covers the "willy" and a few inches either side and the nappie inside. But having said all that it is a bit of a trying time those days when a girl is in season - more so though when you don't want her to mate. Good luck with it. No matter what you do some say its right and some say its wrong - if its working for you go with it.

Had a litter born in October - my girl had lost her first litter - there is a thread on this - and was supplimented with progesterone tablets - 1 a day from day 39 - she delivered her pups without a hitch in spite of being told she would probably need a c/section - the 8 pups were beautiful and healthy all the males (4 boys) had normal testicles when they left - always check this thoroughly as I know its a more expensive op when they have a retained testicle - but all were being sold into pet homes in any case so they will all probably be desexed at 5 to 6 months - a bit too early to be completely sure but there seemed no problems at all from 6 - 7 weeks and when they left at 9 weeks - on a lighter side - for pets with so many people wanting females - if the boys were somewhat more feminine that could be a plus - but I do doubt this is the case. My reproduction vet never mentioned this as a possible outcome and he was very thorough.

Whew - you only have to hold your breath for another 2 weeks.You have probably already said but you intended to keep a bitch for breeding if the progesterone thing wasnt in the mix - is that right? Yep. So not sure now. I am only ever going to be a very small breeder - possibly only one or two litters ever - so not sure as to ways forward really. There is apparently a DNA test you can do for pregnancy loss syndrome that I didn't know about until after she was mated and may be the issue here. Will test her for this later. If she doesn't have it we will have exhausted all the reasons as to why her progesterone drops. The two repo vets here said that sometimes there is just no reason for it that can be found, anyway. The other sheltie breeder that used prog supplementing had a bitch that lost a litter, needed to supplement the next one, but not the one after. Weird. From Mini Gir Just read your post - and the DNA test for pregnancy loss syndome - did not know there was a dna test for this - who is it through? Must check it out. Hopping your girl makes it to her litter without any problems - have been thinking of you and keeping an eye out for your posts .I am hopeful of letting my girl have another litter at the end of the year - and will see what I get as far as keeping a pup - if I do I wil have all the tests done and take regular progesterone test on the girl to be sure when I do breed her - but it may also help to know if a girl from a mother who lost pups from low progesterone is going to be the smae. My girl who lost a litter then had a beautiful litter of 8 with the help of the progesterone from day 39 continues to be an absolute joy and I hear her pups are just beautiful - I will go again but of course at 4 weeks have the scan and then the progesterone tests and if she needs the suppliments again will hope with all my heart it turns out as well as last time. Good luck with you little girl and keep us posted of the outcome.

I don't know the answer, and may be flamed for suggesting this, but is your girl from a breed that commonly has reproductive problems? Is she from a breed that has a small gene pool? This is the sort of reproductive failure I'd expect from dogs with a high degree of homozygosity, either due to inbreeding or due to a small founder population and/or some bottlenecks in the breed evolution. This may seem harsh and forgive me for suggesting, but personally, I don't think a girl who can't carry pups to full term should be bred from. I wish someone could tell me a reason this happens - and the trouble is that you don't know it is going to happen to you loose pups - I know my girl's mother was an excellent breeder and I must say except for the fact that she had to have the suppliments to get her to full term all was extremely good - she delivered the 8 pups without a problem - and out of the 3 other dogs I have bred it was the easiest delivery yet. She reared the pups very well and came through it all as fit as a fiddle - I would love with all my heart to keep a pup from her if I do decide to let her go again - I don't know any other breeders of my breed who have had this happen - the two dogs I put together were not close at all but you don;'t always know what has happened several generations back - its still a mystery to me but all I can say is that I am not sorry I did it - her pups were all beautiful and healthy and she is her wonderful bouncy self. I wonder how she would be with a different mate though.

Thank you - I will certainly let you know -she is home now safe and sound and we will all play the waiting game - another reason I let them have a fairly free reign was that on her first mating she didn't conceive - so heres hoping it will happen this time.

Also really glad your story had a happy ending - hope all continues to go well for your girl - but certainly a big worry for you.

I guess with large breeds and a kennel situation it could well be a different story - mine are miniature poodles and I only have 4 that live at home with us - they are our pets we love very much first and foremost - I would never do anything knowingly that would harm my dogs or any dog staying at my home in any way - but can realise that all breeds are not the same - I have over the years used a stud dog away from home - but took my girl to them and stayed with them while a mating took place - only once did I have to leave my girl overnight and I picked her up the next day all ok and got 8 beautiful pups. I got my stud boy as a pup some 4 years ago - and he seemed to be a natural - and fathered pups the first time without a bit of worry - and quite a few since - the girl he was first with was a pup at the same time as him and they sort of grew up together - but when the time came he just knew what to do and all was well. I would totally trust this boy to not get agro or harmful to any of my girls - and after two matings where I was present at the beginning could see that the little girl staying here was a very even tempered little thing not skittish or highly strung - and the whole tie was very quiet and no problems at all. I think perhaps I am lucky but must admit this is the only breed I have had experience with so can't speak for other breeds. Any way just hope its been a success - if she is like my own girls she will be ok.

How do I answer this - the dogs live in our home and are never far from us at any time - was with them on the first two matings and all was well and held the girl and kept her placid - although she is a very laid back little girl - the third one cought me a bit of guard - but noticed them missing for a short time and found them together - so sat on the bed with them and my visiting granddaughter till they were apart - nothing untoward happened in the least - and the last one - they had come upstairs with me while I checked my emails etc. and were gone for no more than a few minutes when I heard the yelp - and went to see - and found them tied- have not left them unsupervised - the whole 6 days she has been here have kept in constant touch with her owner and she has no problems in the way things have been - they are not big dogs and my male is not an aggressive boy at all - very gentle - he is used to this with my own girls - I know a kennel situation may be different but I don't want to lock this little girl away and just bring her out for a mating and put her back - while she is here she is living as my own dogs do - have used my boy with own 3 girls in a similar way and never a problem yet. We all have our own ways of doing things and this is working for me.

He doesn't need a rest to get his sperm count back up, give him a feed of red meat and he would have been ready to go again within a couple of hours. Wow facinating about the red meat and a couple of hours - infact after their meal last night I found them tied again - ON MY BED!!! oh well as long as it works - that makes 3 ties so we should be ok - I was under the impression that they needed 48 hours to get their sperm count back - but glad to hear that its not necessary. He is totally besoteed by her again today and won't move more than 6 inches away from her - but she seems to be getting a bit past it and prefers to sit next to me - but you never know there may be one more for the road - but I feel pretty sure it should all be ok. - oh God just heard a yelp - they are tied again and on my bed again - better learn to shut the door - I am running out of clean sheets!!! The things we put our selves through.