klink

Hi all, I have for some time considered the following comments as a way to improve the show experience for us all. Please give your opinions. We all at some stage of our show careers have been aware of the dreaded "face judging syndrome " whether real or imagined and with this in mind on two separate occassions have written to Dogs NSW to offer this suggestion. Show schedules always name the attending judges at an upcoming show.....WHY ? Is it perhaps so we all only enter under judges we follow or know they like our dogs',In my opinion both these comments do reflect the truth for all of us ,myself included.Month after month we see the same dogs', same people being put up by the same judges and of course the usual paybacks are there for us all to see. If the show schedules did not nominate judges attending, we would all have to take who we get on the day, to me ,a much fairer system for all concerned. Now I hear you all saying that the clubs would leak the info out but if the judges and the club only were awarded their group to judge prior to the commencement of the show we all would only know when the judges are introduced on the morning as to what group has beenallocated to who.( they could be drawn from a hat by, perhaps the rep for the day.) I dont' think for a minute that judges would object, well maybe some would ,but I bet the journal results would look a lot different. I am also positive that show entries would beincreased if this was bought in by Dogs'NSW>

In my opinion this organisation has become far far to political for me. It gathers monies from many misinformed people particularly in the form of bequests. To the best of my knowledge none of this money is accountable as to the amounts or how it is spent. I am not aware of any public reporting system as to where to money is spent and on what. I too have had experience with this mob re the use of spiked collars on dogs, which was reported and they did not respond. Complaints re this matter continued and finally I was told that they were unable to pusue those involved because six months had passed. You only have to see who represents them in the media , that says' it all. Never RSPCA for me. If there is bad news about ,there they are!! another breed banned. It is also a major worry just how much Dogs' NSW is in bed with them, members beware.

There has been studies where blood cortisol levels were taken and proved that the pups cortisol levels did not alter before, during ,and after banding. These test formed part of the submissions to the New Zealand govt. who upon reviewing the evidence placed before it allowed tail BANDING to be done subject to certain rules( age of pup etc ). Maybe somebody should ask our fearless friends at the AVA. why it wasnt' enough for them. and of course our bleeding heart experts.

Me either. Same here. If you love a breed of dog isn't it for reasons other than just appearance? I know that looks are at least part of the appeal but to say that if you couldn't have a dog without it's tail being docked then I just assume that you must not feel very passionately about that breed after all, maybe it is just about looks for some people? I LOVE Dobermann's with or without a tail, however they come it wouldn't stop me from owning one. I feel that a lot of you are really missing the main point of these discussions. Everybody has the right of their own option re tails or no tails, your own choice. The problem is that choice has now been taken away from us under the guise of animal cruelty. As stated earlier I would never wish to have my animals endure pain / suffering and i certainly would not wish to take away choice regarding this subject. Unfortunately we all have contributed to this dilemma by firstly believing the piles of misinformation that has done the rounds and still continues to float about ,spread by all the so called experts. Some breeds like it or not have been historically docked for many many years and those done correctly have had few isolated problems. these breeds at the time were docked at that time for various reasons. Over recent years it has become very trendy with some to have a world changing attitude towards different causes. e.g. Movie stars adopting children from overseas countries , doing work in third world countries, protecting our heritage bulidings, supporting parklands and national forests where you cant do anything in them except watch the trees grow. all the parks have that so much sign pollution no this no that allowed. We all love our dogs' otherwise why would we put ourselves through the garbage we do. If they treated dogs' with the same concern they do the above wouldnt it be nice to protect the various breeds heritage I think you've missed the point of the responses. Getting rid of a dog because it has a tail that wags? Because the tail has something to do with temperament? That doesn't make you scratch your head at all? Unfortunately it is impossible to legislate for brains some people have both brains and common sense some have neither you are always going to get strange ideas with some people anybody who would contemplate doing that is a large part of the overall problem with dog ownership..IMO a permit should be required before you purchase a dog and a 14 day cooling off period . no just walking into a pet shop and walking out with one.

Me either. Same here. If you love a breed of dog isn't it for reasons other than just appearance? I know that looks are at least part of the appeal but to say that if you couldn't have a dog without it's tail being docked then I just assume that you must not feel very passionately about that breed after all, maybe it is just about looks for some people? I LOVE Dobermann's with or without a tail, however they come it wouldn't stop me from owning one. I feel that a lot of you are really missing the main point of these discussions. Everybody has the right of their own option re tails or no tails, your own choice. The problem is that choice has now been taken away from us under the guise of animal cruelty. As stated earlier I would never wish to have my animals endure pain / suffering and i certainly would not wish to take away choice regarding this subject. Unfortunately we all have contributed to this dilemma by firstly believing the piles of misinformation that has done the rounds and still continues to float about ,spread by all the so called experts. Some breeds like it or not have been historically docked for many many years and those done correctly have had few isolated problems. these breeds at the time were docked at that time for various reasons. Over recent years it has become very trendy with some to have a world changing attitude towards different causes. e.g. Movie stars adopting children from overseas countries , doing work in third world countries, protecting our heritage bulidings, supporting parklands and national forests where you cant do anything in them except watch the trees grow. all the parks have that so much sign pollution no this no that allowed. We all love our dogs' otherwise why would we put ourselves through the garbage we do. If they treated dogs' with the same concern they do the above wouldnt it be nice to protect the various breeds heritage

Hi Elina , tails are not actually crucial for balance, otherwise all those docked doggies would be constantly falling over, and they just don't. To OP, I am getting used to tails, but still love the look of the docked dogs I see out there. Not many left now though. Damn, it's really hard to express myself with foreign language. But not are four legs crucial either. I have seen many dogs walking and running very well with three legs. Anyhow, what i try to say, is that there is a reason why (most) dogs born with tails. And reasons why most in this thread are saying they don't like tails are not because they are afraid the tail will get hurt, it's because it doesn't look good. Elina, taildocking was finally banned in this country on the basis of lies and fierce lobbying by all the worlds saviours, all those people who in most cases wanted to feel uplifted by having a "cause " to pursue. Tail docking or tail banding is not cruel. this has been proven with out doubt, whether people like yourself believe it or not, when done at the correct time and by banding, not cutting. Medical evidence is available to prove this statement ask the nz. government for one. Myself like many australians are getting sick and tired of being dictated to by ill informed politicans who are only interested in getting re elected with the help of the fringe dwellers of society who overall contribute very little meaningful things to our life style I by no means advocate any thing that would hurt any of my animals, tail banding does not. The banding methods used for tails is still being used on a daily basis in most hospitals world wide ,for extra fingers, toes etc check it out .

I have owned docked breeds since 1970, and I too tried to gather support to fight the docking ban from the time it was first whispered about. "It will never happen" so they all sat smugly on their butts till it did and now it is all history. Watching them now fall over themselves to import docked dogs after a couple of years of living with tails just makes me laugh. Many of the new age of anti dockers didn't open their mouths till the widely publicised RSPCA campaign splashed cruelty accusations across their TV screens and in the print media. As all of us that have bred docked breeds and loved them understand it was not an act of cruelty when performed correctly, and in my experience Breeders outshine Vets hands down. The laughable claims that it is impossible to read a docked dog properly and that they cannot express themselves still makes me shake my head. It has been my experience that the specialist breed clubs, particularly with the Rottweiler did support the ban on docking. This was in the early stages when they were terrified that the ADRK would not allow their judges to judge here if we continued to dock.As we all know the Germans are the only ones' that know anything about Rottweilers.... arent' they ?? I cant' speak for other breeds but I would suspect this was a factor with some of them. In my opinion anybody who really believes the above remark is truly delussional.Until egos' are left out of the discussion we will continue to get nowhere.

Having been involved in a docked breed for over 25years, and tried in vain to stop the banning of docking on the grounds of cruelty( which was proven scientifically to not be cruel or to cause any pain to the pup ) I find it quite amusing that people with a traditionally docked breed now claim to really like the tails on these dogs. If that was your feeling why didnt' you request or order from the breeder an undocked puppy in the first place? I continually hear people claiming and adjusting their views on this subject and Ithink it would be very interesting to see how many would soon dock if the laws were altered to choice.(not existing dogs) But I guess it give people another excuse for not winning in the show ring. This anti docking movement started in Europe and all of us sat on our backsides and mostly didnt' get involved,"because it didnt' affect our breed " it is really about time that we all started worrying about whats going on NOT just with our own breed. Check out the Kiwis' they didnt' just rollover. they took notice of the scientfic evidence instead on just listening to all the crap put out by the lobby groups and bleeding hearts.

On the subject of showing Nuetered dogs' could somebody please give some sugestions re my situation. I have a male dog that as a young dog had a lump in one testicle and as a safety precaution, advised by my vet had the testicle removed, leaving him with one testicle. With vetinary evidence i approached Dogs' nsw re showing of this dog. I was expectedly informed that the breed standard stipulates the need to be entire which is fine. I understand that the object of these regs' are to ensure that the top quality dogs can be bred and continue to pass on their breed improvements etc. We all know what a farce that object is when you see some of the specimans of the various breeds that are being awarded titles regularly week after week. In my own case the dog concerned having one testicle, able to reproduce does' not qualify for either class . What choice do I have if I wish to show this dog who apart from the stated is a solid breed speciman.Comments please.as i think this is an interesting position.

Hi , Recently had a Alaskan Malamute that was vomiting blood occaisionally which was a concern. Took him to my vet and had him do a endoscope of his throat and stomach and found a small ulcer for which he was given antibiotics and a daily dose of an oral paste called Gastrozol ( horse medication ) you must talk to your vet for dosage rate to suit your dog. The vet informed me that there are only three things that cause vomiting of blood 1. obstruction 2. cancer. 3 ulcers. My dog was fine after medication. If you are concerned and it continues, have him give your dog an eendoscope, which will ease your mind.

I agree with most of the comments re show venues and the standard of some of these locations and at the same time I appreciate the efforts put in by clubs trying to organise shows, many times with limited help from their local councils etc. I think ,like many have remarked that " cluster " shows are the best option for exhibitors ,particularly those that have to travel distance around country areas. I would also like to comment on the fact that in spite of all the money being poured into Erskine Park in Sydney, a ground that is not owned by Dogs' NSW and is leased only largely with members monies that we in Nsw still do not have an all weather indoor arena . I think it is about time that NSW members started to press for some security of their own premises. What do members really think ??

Well said. Some show people expect to blaze away to victory after victory as soon as they enter the ring but the reality is that like everything else in life we need to serve our apprenticship. If you are very lucky you may fluke a good specimen of your chosen breed first up but usually you dont ' and it is only after some hard and dedicated attention to you breed that you finally become more and more sucessful.I think that a more pressing issue is that judges continue to place below standard specimens instead of having the fortitude to nil award where they feel the need, i am sure that if this happened the quality and the value of the title Australian Champion wouild be enhanced.

I find all the discussion re this class or that class to me is a further indication just how much the show scene is hurting. from comments ranging from the pros and cons of all breed shows and of course the inenevitable comparisons to the specialty shows and their superior judge qualities is the greatest load of b/s I have heard. These comparisons have been around that long they have whiskers.Experience over some 27yrs. have shown me that the majority of " specialist " tragics readily use the old all breed shows to gain their titles which to me is another indication that many are only too happy to lower their standard if it means a title. I believe that all specialist clubs should be disbanded because of the damage they do to the overall dog scene. How many German Shepherd dogs' do you see at all breed shows ? How many Rottweilers do you see at all breed shows ? but check their numbers at specialist shows. Does anybody really believe that we dont' have judges here capable of judging these breeds. Look at both of these breeds and see what the so called experts have done to these once magnificent breeds. Just be greatfull for your beautiful dogs' and enjoy the days out with them,it aint' rocket science. Sorry but having a country of origin breed warden come and breed my breed for a specialty or a National specialty is certainly not hurting my breed... and it doesnt stop people from entering all Breeds either... but who wouldn't want the assessment done thoroughly by someone who is so trusted in their own country to govern what is good enough to be bred from? A lot of european judges and UK judges can't come to judge all breeds because they aren't qualified and so it leaves us with specialties. yes there are judges here that can judge our breeds but how many have a genuine interest in the breed and can see what is going on elsewhere in the world? A lot of WA people have little choice but to enter all breeds and travel across australia for specialties. it doesn't mean we value all breeds any less but that those judges truly involved in the breed are more often going to be at specialties than at all breeds... and if a breed specialist judge does judge an all breeds show you'll see that particular breeds number swell... most of the time. As stated in my earlier post my comments are based on my experience over 27 years of showing in both allbreeds and specialities and have a very good insight into the goings' on of both. Many breeds as you would be aware have been damaged by the anti docking laws and i assume by your lovely photos' this includes your own breed. My main arguement with specialist clubs generally is they are wrongly under the impression that they are always right and that any views other than theirs is so so misguided. I have shown at many specialist shows over the years and have been on the " pegs " most times but as you know you still hear the same complaints etc. from exhibitors...he's hopeless, what would he know, he ran us too much, he didnt' move them enough and so on. The main problem as I see it is that clubs that are under the impression that because a country of origin judge does your breed that he must have a greater knowledge of that breed is again b/s. Another factor with say German origin breeds and there are quite a lot is that clubs sell there souls to the ADRK because they are frightened that they wont' allow these hallowed members of their select group attend and judge our dogs. Dogs' i always thought were to be judged on their ability to perform the work they were bred for not to satisfy the over inflated ego of many judges both international and local. Like allbreed shows specialist shows have the same results...good judges and of course bad judges.I still feel that specialist clubs, for the overall dog scene are divisive by nature and at a time where we are in serious threat from outside lobbies we need a resolute community. We all sit around and bitch about everything, forget about unimportant stuff eg. champion class or not if your dogs are good enough they will beat the best. we have more than enough regulations now.

I find all the discussion re this class or that class to me is a further indication just how much the show scene is hurting. from comments ranging from the pros and cons of all breed shows and of course the inenevitable comparisons to the specialty shows and their superior judge qualities is the greatest load of b/s I have heard. These comparisons have been around that long they have whiskers.Experience over some 27yrs. have shown me that the majority of " specialist " tragics readily use the old all breed shows to gain their titles which to me is another indication that many are only too happy to lower their standard if it means a title. I believe that all specialist clubs should be disbanded because of the damage they do to the overall dog scene. How many German Shepherd dogs' do you see at all breed shows ? How many Rottweilers do you see at all breed shows ? but check their numbers at specialist shows. Does anybody really believe that we dont' have judges here capable of judging these breeds. Look at both of these breeds and see what the so called experts have done to these once magnificent breeds. Just be greatfull for your beautiful dogs' and enjoy the days out with them,it aint' rocket science.

I think , no cross that out I KNOW you are on the right track with your comments re impulse buying, you cant' do it with firearms, you cant' buy a drivers' licence on the spot you have cooling off periods for many purchases so why not? If we are all really serious about our love of dogs' and/or other animals why would you be concerned about some restraints on the impulse buying of a pet for '" little johnnie " in the days' particularly coming up to xmas. If you wish to buy a pet for your child plan ahead, dont' just walk into your local shopping complex and walk out with a totally unplanned pet. How about we all get real and put the welfare of our animals above the rush and the greed for money at all cost. Lets' make sure that the poor animals that are flogged every year get a fair chance at a decent life. Yep I agree but do I have to loose my rights to make decisions on what I think is best for its health to do that? Steve, nobody would be more aware for the need to protect our rights' than myself but the dogs/cats'etc only have us to care for them and if we have to compromise on some things' for this purpose so be it . That does' not mean we simply go along with anything that is put before us without examination and questions and voicing our opinion.

I think , no cross that out I KNOW you are on the right track with your comments re impulse buying, you cant' do it with firearms, you cant' buy a drivers' licence on the spot you have cooling off periods for many purchases so why not? If we are all really serious about our love of dogs' and/or other animals why would you be concerned about some restraints on the impulse buying of a pet for '" little johnnie " in the days' particularly coming up to xmas. If you wish to buy a pet for your child plan ahead, dont' just walk into your local shopping complex and walk out with a totally unplanned pet. How about we all get real and put the welfare of our animals above the rush and the greed for money at all cost. Lets' make sure that the poor animals that are flogged every year get a fair chance at a decent life.

does' anybody really give a 'rats' about Burke ? I doubt he would know which end of a dog to feed, anyone really remember him ?

Just a final comment on this topic, after having read all the comments re this topic, I still find it amazing that nobody feels that the denial of correct procedure, as regulated by dogs' nsw. for all affiliates to follow was as judged by the NSW Supreme court ruling was not followed. Never have I in any of my comments condoned an ill dog being shown, only the handling of the incident. I personally dont' care what the breed is or who the exhibitor is the regulations are not there as far as i know just to use paper. If Clubs' are unaware of these regulations they should take time to study and learn the correct procedure. Another thing I find strange as a previous forum member mentioned is the judge asking to hold the dogs' mouth closed to reexamine the dogs' head after already having done so,particularly on a hot day in Feb. I have NEVER in 25plus years of showing large breeds been asked by any judge to hold my dogs' mouth closed so than can have another look. Before you all jump in with all the usual comments re the showing of a dog that is ill,I will say again that I am only discussing the lack of correct procedure. simple! The result may well have been the same,I dont' know but I feel these incidents must be handled correctly. Tomorrow this could be you or myself in the same position, but wait I hear you all say it would never happen to me !

I am amazed at the response to my mail re the incident with the Rottweiler at Bega. Whilst everybody does not want sick dogs' at shows you all seem to be missing the point of the court case. The hearing into the incident was conducted contary to the regulations set down by dogs' NSW. If you take the time to read the judgement transcipt the judge makes reference to the handling of the matter by the club involved. This is irrespective of the health of the said dog at the time. Correct procedure was not carried out.This same mistake and or flouting of the regulations may have affected many other people who perhaps have not been as dedicated to obtaining a correct hearing. As an earlier member asked ,I do own Rottweilers and have done for 25years and my name is not Glenn Smith. The trouble with the dog scene is that everyone does' their own thing and seems oblivious to any other problems. Its' about time we all stood up and were counted instead of just burying our heads in the sand because its' not your breed. Incidently, I have not been aware of any comments' or support from within Glenns' own breed clubs.

Would all you experts explain to me how you get "Bitten" or grabbed by a 50kg. Rottweiler and have no marks' on your arm ? Did he have any teeth.? The judge appears to me to have problems with many dogs' if history is any indication.On the matter of the dogs' illness on the day, over the years i have seen and heard many dogs' at show with health problems, lameness, vomiting . and coughing, so dont' throw stones if you live in glass houses.This case has been handled very poorly and the next case could involve you!